Mega Thread The 2017 'Buckley's Chances' Thread

[Collingwoodity]

Slim pickings?

Why is Buckley continuously giving games to Blair.. he's useless. There's a few obvious choices ala Kirby Brown Daicos he can play ahead of him.

Yeah, said in another thread that Daicos and Kirby should have already been selected ahead by Blair.

Slim pickings in terms of demonstrably talented youth.


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[Collingwoodity]

Are they? Since we're judging Buckley/Collingwood on W/L it's only fair we do the same with Carlton, and they're tracking to win less games this year than last.

Their list is less advanced than ours DT.
Do you agree?

They are only 2 wins behind. Not bad for such a "shit" side with a "shit" coach.


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[DT_fanatic]

Their list is less advanced than ours DT.
Do you agree?

They are only 2 wins behind. Not bad for such a "shit" side with a "shit" coach.


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Depends, as many have noted we have a couple of serious deficiencies in our list. Where the blame for that lies is a seperate discussion. But yeah obviously more advanced in terms of long-term outlook I suppose. Still don't think this will guarantee success though. Until it actually happens it's a wait and see for me.

I don't think Carlton are a shit side/have a shit coach but I also don't think Bolton is the coaching messiah that a lot of people seem to think. I think he's a capable coach and he has certainly improved Carlton from the basket case they used to be, but will they be able to take the next step? Again a wait and see for me until they actually make some serious inroads.

Based on the evidence so far I think this year seems to have gone worse for them than last. They had some impressive wins last year and looked good. This year I don't think has been as good for them - they've beaten us (who if everyone is to believed is hardly impressive), a GWS side who forgot how to kick for goal in the last quarter, Sydney who were still poor at the time, GC (also lost to them once) and Essendon (probably their best win of the year).

I know there's some commentary on Carlton over-achieving last year but the very least you'd be hoping for is to maintain that performance this year. I don't think they have, and for me that would be a worry.

 

[westozpie]

Are they? Since we're judging Buckley/Collingwood on W/L it's only fair we do the same with Carlton, and they're tracking to win less games this year than last.

Don't get the Carlton love on here at all, behind us big time on the ladder they may have some pretty good young players (who doesn't) that may well stagnate in that shithole of a club ( Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer) didn't help them much hey.
I suppose it makes them feel good to include this petty point into their blame bucks bent

 

[Matt_352]

So, opinion.

Ta.

Nope. Ratts consistently improved Carltons position whilst Bucks has consistently decreased Collingwoods position. FACT.

TA.

 

[BringouttheGimp]

A belated happy birthday Nathan Buckley.

May your cards be live.. and your pots be monsters.

Love
Rodrigo

 

[Countrypie]

People like me? What am I? A different race or gender?

"People like you" think that the grass is not greener just because you say so.

Pretty poor reason for trying justify a point.

Proof is in the pudding. Carlton are outperforming Collingwood.

You probably are happy to suck up all the propaganda spilled forth from Collingwood's media machine without questioning it.


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I thouht wins & losses were the only criteria for measuring performance

 

[Scribe26]

I thouht wins & losses were the only criteria for measuring performance

The criteria for measuring performance changes every 20 minutes, depending on which argument suits your narrative.

 

[Scribe26]

Nope. Ratts consistently improved Carltons position whilst Bucks has consistently decreased Collingwoods position. FACT.

TA.

Are you really, honestly, delusional enough to simply look at ladder position, rather than the other variables at play?

Ratten improved Carlton's position every year? What do you think would happen when he took over a wooden spoon side with four #1 picks?

Is that your big justification? That's your big FACT? That a guy got a wooden spoon side to improve?

fml - I've gotta stop doing this.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I think Collingwood will do anything to get a FF in the trade.

I look back and think of the Adams and Treloar trades.. yes great.. but they stink of Buckley's boys club mentality as well.. they were under his tutorage at the AIS if I'm not mistaken.. had we had a look at the entire GWS list.. we might have had that FF we've been crying out for the last 2 yrs.

That's the shit I'm talking about.. enough of this it's who you know BS. Gets you nowhere.

For the bulk of your post I'd suggest that the recruitment has been midfield top heavy in error - not because they like Buckley after all he only has a part say in the final signing; it's dekka that went and got them. If what you suggest is true than this club is in deep trouble and the review by rights will fix that, on the bolded we have Darcy and we should not have lost Trav - sure poor form but even then takes the best defender every week - gives Darc a chop out. Now Moore's development has been hampered even more because of the Cloke decision (you could argue)

 

[Carringbush2010]

What makes it worse is that we interviewed Marchbank and had him tour the holden centre but instead of offering him something he could not refuse we instead wanted Mayne more. Absolute joke, Marchbank would have been ideal.

And by all reports on BF Nathan didn't want Mayne and I believe that, and yeah Marchbank would've been ideal

 

[BringouttheGimp]

For the bulk of your post I'd suggest that the recruitment has been midfield top heavy in error - not because they like Buckley after all he only has a part say in the final signing; it's dekka that went and got them. If what you suggest is true than this club is in deep trouble and the review by rights will fix that, on the bolded we have Darcy and we should not have lost Trav - sure poor form but even then takes the best defender every week - gives Darc a chop out. Now Moore's development has been hampered even more because of the Cloke decision (you could argue)

Treloar and Adams and not sure but WHE may have been coached by Buckley at AIS level. If Dekka didn't get a wink from Buckley then wowwwwieeeeee what a coincidence that these players happened to be under Buckley's tutorage.

 

[jackcass]

What makes it worse is that we interviewed Marchbank and had him tour the holden centre but instead of offering him something he could not refuse we instead wanted Mayne more. Absolute joke, Marchbank would have been ideal.

I was definitely in the get Marchbank camp. I guess the issue for the club was always what did we have to offer GWS in return. I'm yet to hear anyone confirm that we didn't have the conversation with GWS or that we could have got him for ______ (insert player or picks) or that GWS were interested given they already had a 1st round pick on the table from Carlton (when we didn't have a 1st round pick).

 

[jackcass]

I thouht wins & losses were the only criteria for measuring performance

When it's convenient it is.

 

[jackcass]

For the bulk of your post I'd suggest that the recruitment has been midfield top heavy in error - not because they like Buckley after all he only has a part say in the final signing; it's dekka that went and got them. If what you suggest is true than this club is in deep trouble and the review by rights will fix that, on the bolded we have Darcy and we should not have lost Trav - sure poor form but even then takes the best defender every week - gives Darc a chop out. Now Moore's development has been hampered even more because of the Cloke decision (you could argue)

Que? How so?

Kid is tracking very nicely for a 3rd year KPF and even showing he's not out of place in the ruck when needed.

 

[Scribe26]

Que? How so?

Kid is tracking very nicely for a 3rd year KPF and even showing he's not out of place in the ruck when needed.

A calm, reasoned look at Darcy says his development is tracking just fine.

I think the frustration and panic surrounding him is because, to be a finals side and a possible powerhouse moving forward, we needed him to be a generational talent, like his old man... and quickly.

That hasn't happened. I haven't seen the improvement this year in his game - apart from glimpses here and there.

And, judging purely by the list management decisions made (moving Cloke on, not finding any KPP replacement), the MC must have thought he'd be ready to take a bigger leap and be a more consistent option this season.

Expectations have also been out of whack at the club, given our last gun KPP, Travis Cloke, won a B&F in his third season at the same age.

I've tempered my own expectations on Darcy. I think he's a talent, a future leader and could possibly be one of the best forward/ruck players in the comp, but I can't see him being a true match-winner for another 3-4 years. God, I hope I'm wrong, but I think he's going to take a lot more work and seriously needs some veteran help and leadership that isn't Jesse/Reid/Keefe to help him grow into his role.

 

[mike123]

This is the problem.

We're saying Buckley failed not taking the club to finals in the last few years.

Yet a lot of people now think we should have completely bottomed out and taken the Carlton approach.

Imagine the uproar if we ended the last couple of seasons in the bottom 4. Even though it seems NOW that we could have benefited from that with some young talent nobody would be satisfied with those results at the time.

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

FWIW I'd rather we keep looking to win anyway and not go for the bottom out approach. Look at Hawthorn for example. We've just traded for the wrong players and also haven't had the benefit of superstars like Dangerfield falling into our lap.


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Buckley should have held on and kept challenging then bottom out once we can't challenge anymore, instead he done neither, cut the challenge short and hasn't even started the rebuild yet. You should either be challenging or building towards your next challenge Buckley has done neither.


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[Scribe26]

Buckley should have held on and kept challenging then bottom out once we can't challenge anymore, instead he done neither, cut the challenge short and hasn't even started the rebuild yet. You should either be challenging or building towards your next challenge Buckley has done neither.


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Having two picks inside the top 10 of the most recent 'superstar' draft and missing on both hasn't helped.

Think about where we'd be as a club had we collected Bontompelli and Cripps instead of Scharenberg and Freeman at the end of 2013 (or Zach Merret, Matt Crouch, Rory Lobb, Barrass, Salem, Zak Jones, Dunston, Ben Brown etc.)

The duo's problems set our list management back massively - you're taking away two of the most elite kids in the country. Put 80+ games into any of the blokes I've listed in a Pies jumper and dear lord, do we look better.

To miss on two guys who should have now been becoming the true backbone and future of the list is a disaster.

Imagine, if you can, Jordan Roughead and Jordan Lewis both being crippled with injuries early in their Hawthorn careers - still think that team becomes a powerhouse?

With all due respect to Scharenberg who is still on the list and Freeman, who is still yet to play a game - picking them may not have been a mistake at the time - because you can predict future injuries etc - but what has happened since has crippled the 'rebuild on the run plan'.

When you miss on first round picks, your rebuild is f*cked. We've seen it time and time again.

And boy, did we miss.

Hard to think that any of that is Buckley's fault?

 

[Countrypie]

Buckley should have held on and kept challenging then bottom out once we can't challenge anymore, instead he done neither, cut the challenge short and hasn't even started the rebuild yet. You should either be challenging or building towards your next challenge Buckley has done neither.


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I tend to agree with this.

I wonder how much this is Buckley's or a broader club problem. I wonder whether the conversation revolved around how low that the club was prepared to fall. It's on record that a decision was made in either late 2012 or 2013 that the list at the time was not capable of winning a flag, although it was capable of playing finals and decisions were made to prune and restock. The pruning wasn't deep enouh and the re-stocking was flawed.

I suspect that a new coach will be given the freedom to bottom out. This is what we now need. I don't know if Buckley was allowed that freedom. If he was and he wasn't prepared to do it, he's culpable. If he wasn't alowed to then the culpability is shared across the club

 

[jackcass]

A calm, reasoned look at Darcy says his development is tracking just fine.

I think the frustration and panic surrounding him is because, to be a finals side and a possible powerhouse moving forward, we needed him to be a generational talent, like his old man... and quickly.

That hasn't happened. I haven't seen the improvement this year in his game - apart from glimpses here and there.

And, judging purely by the list management decisions made (moving Cloke on, not finding any KPP replacement), the MC must have thought he'd be ready to take a bigger leap and be a more consistent option this season.

Expectations have also been out of whack at the club, given our last gun KPP, Travis Cloke, won a B&F in his third season at the same age.

I've tempered my own expectations on Darcy. I think he's a talent, a future leader and could possibly be one of the best forward/ruck players in the comp, but I can't see him being a true match-winner for another 3-4 years. God, I hope I'm wrong, but I think he's going to take a lot more work and seriously needs some veteran help and leadership that isn't Jesse/Reid/Keefe to help him grow into his role.

I think perceptions of improvement or otherwise this year are skewed to some degree by his lack of form in the 1st 4-5 rounds. His marking yips a major component but it was essentially an extension of his pre-season form.

He seemed to turn it around in the Geelong game, had another downer against the Blues, and hasn't looked back since he went into the ruck against GWS.

I don't know how to do it but I'd be very interested in seeing comparative stats for say R1-5 v R6 onward. I'd take a punt that his stats for R6 onward eclipse his 2016 stats. Even taking into account those early rounds there isn't much between his 2016 returns and those of this year.

Disposals: 2016 9.1 ~ 2017 9.4
Marks: 2016 4.5 ~ 2017 5.4
Goals: 2016 1.4 ~ 2017 1.3

I also think his aerobic capacity is much improved this year. Be nice to see some GPS comparisons.

 

[Countrypie]

I think perceptions of improvement or otherwise this year are skewed to some degree by his lack of form in the 1st 4-5 rounds. His marking yips a major component but it was essentially an extension of his pre-season form.

He seemed to turn it around in the Geelong game, had another downer against the Blues, and hasn't looked back since he went into the ruck against GWS.

I don't know how to do it but I'd be very interested in seeing comparative stats for say R1-5 v R6 onward. I'd take a punt that his stats for R6 onward eclipse his 2016 stats. Even taking into account those early rounds there isn't much between his 2016 returns and those of this year.

Disposals: 2016 9.1 ~ 2017 9.4
Marks: 2016 4.5 ~ 2017 5.4
Goals: 2016 1.4 ~ 2017 1.3

I also think his aerobic capacity is much improved this year. Be nice to see some GPS comparisons.

Again I am pretty much in agreement. improvement is never lineal in anything. There are peaks, plateaus and troughs in every discipline. WHat I'm now seeing is more consistent performances. We haven;t seen a break out game like there was in 2016, but aside from those first 5 weeks, he's been a solid contributor for longer periods in every game

 

[DT_fanatic]

Buckley should have held on and kept challenging then bottom out once we can't challenge anymore, instead he done neither, cut the challenge short and hasn't even started the rebuild yet. You should either be challenging or building towards your next challenge Buckley has done neither.


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We couldn't have bottomed out in 2015 starting 8-3 and we didn't even have a first round pick for the 2016 draft so there was less value in bottoming out.


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[Scribe26]

I think perceptions of improvement or otherwise this year are skewed to some degree by his lack of form in the 1st 4-5 rounds. His marking yips a major component but it was essentially an extension of his pre-season form.

He seemed to turn it around in the Geelong game, had another downer against the Blues, and hasn't looked back since he went into the ruck against GWS.

I don't know how to do it but I'd be very interested in seeing comparative stats for say R1-5 v R6 onward. I'd take a punt that his stats for R6 onward eclipse his 2016 stats. Even taking into account those early rounds there isn't much between his 2016 returns and those of this year.

Disposals: 2016 9.1 ~ 2017 9.4
Marks: 2016 4.5 ~ 2017 5.4
Goals: 2016 1.4 ~ 2017 1.3

I also think his aerobic capacity is much improved this year. Be nice to see some GPS comparisons.

Buckley dropped a stat on his Footy Classified stint a month or so ago:

There was a 5-6 week period this year when Darcy led the entire comp in contested marks.

I don't disagree on any point, he's shown signs, the talent is all there and it's exciting.

But the season was basically lost while he was struggling to take a chest mark in the first month of footy. We're 3 years in and he's yet to tear a game open and carry us. It's way too much to ask of a 3rd-year kid, but nevertheless, we needed a lot more out of him this year.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Que? How so?

Kid is tracking very nicely for a 3rd year KPF and even showing he's not out of place in the ruck when needed.

Agreed he's tracking well as you say however (forgot to mention what I stated was only my opinion) I can't help but feel his development would've been better if we had another "presence" target to give him a shot at learning his own craft better. Externally it looks like he's been thrown in the deep end out of necessity because trav is not there. Sure we have white and cox but the opposition KPD's will by and large go straight to Moore as he is now our number 1 forward and probably a year or two before he should be

 

[peter9789]

Having two picks inside the top 10 of the most recent 'superstar' draft and missing on both hasn't helped.

Think about where we'd be as a club had we collected Bontompelli and Cripps instead of Scharenberg and Freeman at the end of 2013 (or Zach Merret, Matt Crouch, Rory Lobb, Barrass, Salem, Zak Jones, Dunston, Ben Brown etc.)

The duo's problems set our list management back massively - you're taking away two of the most elite kids in the country. Put 80+ games into any of the blokes I've listed in a Pies jumper and dear lord, do we look better.

To miss on two guys who should have now been becoming the true backbone and future of the list is a disaster.

Imagine, if you can, Jordan Roughead and Jordan Lewis both being crippled with injuries early in their Hawthorn careers - still think that team becomes a powerhouse?

With all due respect to Scharenberg who is still on the list and Freeman, who is still yet to play a game - picking them may not have been a mistake at the time - because you can predict future injuries etc - but what has happened since has crippled the 'rebuild on the run plan'.

When you miss on first round picks, your rebuild is f*cked. We've seen it time and time again.

And boy, did we miss.

Hard to think that any of that is Buckley's fault?

Nail. Head.