The case against Cloke

[windows]

Look I love the guy's endeavour. He tries his guts out. He CAN drift forward and clunk one. BUT.....three points make me conclude he needs to go:

1. most importantly, he cant ruck.
2. his mobility is shocking. YES if he plays forward he can mark, but equally, and more likely, him playing forward means the opposition can run the ball out without pressure. The defensive pressure of Kreuzer is outstanding. The defensive pressure of Cloke is non-existant. Yesterday we caused a lot of Port's turnovers because Armfield, Kreuzer, Walker etc chased so well out of the forward line. Cloke playing forward frees up a man for the opposition.
3. he is holding Hampson back. Hampson learns nothing in the VFL. He simply jumps over his opponents. He is learning no new skills or tricks back there. In the seniors he is playing 50% of games. That's just getting him nowhere.

My suggestion is we give Hampson 70% game time exclusively in the ruck, with Kreuzer filling in the gaps and playing the rest of the time forward with only a little rest. Hampson will learn quickly to use his athleticism and we will become competitive in the ruck much more quickly.

Thoughts?

 

[as0l0]

Cloke might not last more than 5 more years, but he should still be in while he is not terrible and setting a great example. Right now he isn't terrible and he's one of the most committed players wearing the navy blue.

It's interesting to see how many times we link up through Cloke on a wing or through the middle of the ground. He obviously runs hard to get out on his own and offer an option for getting the ball from back to forward.

Keep him.

 

[JuddtoCarlton]

I liked the idea of having hampson, cloke and kruezer in, made us more deadly up forward, i think we should keep all 3 in the side

 

[walshy93]

He is a great bloke, and he does try hard. If we used him as a permanent CHF, he could be used. He has great hands, and can kick a goal.

 

[av76]

I like his endeavour and flexibility...can take a grab and exert his presence.

Have to think about what happens if Kreuzer or Hampson get injured too...these young ruckman can do their knees and never come good...I'd be keeping him even if we pick up another ruckman...other teams have the likes of Bryan and Blake as depth...you need these types of guys...guys who do a job and don't take up much of the salary cap.

 

[Jeremias]

Whilst in no way am I arguing that Clokey is a good player, he's far more valuable to the Carlton side than you give him credit for.

Playing 3 ruckmen in the same side not only gives us a lot of flexibility, but we also have a lot more fire-power up forward, because it allows one of our ruckmen to be played as a permanent forward.

Our other 2 ruckmen in Kreuzer and Hampson are not physically developed enough to be able to shoulder the load in the ruck by themselves. They will get murdered and their bodies will take a physical battering, which really isn't ideal as it could have profound ramafications later in their careers. Cloke is a developed, big-bodied guy that has no trouble with the crash and bash style of football and rucking, so to have a presence like that not only in the ruck, but also around the ground, is invaluable.

Playing Cloke in the side enables us to play Kreuzer up forward for a large amount of the game. Kreuzer is, quite simply, not physically ready to ruck full time. However, he has the body type and size that will often trouble opposition defenses, as we have seen on numerous ocassions throughout the season, including yesterday. Cloke's inclusion also enables Kreuzer to gain some invaluable experience in the ruck without losing a presence up forward. Cloke won't be a star forward, but he does have a very good ability to create a contest in the forward line. He can also take a very good grab, and whilst his goal kicking sometimes leaves plenty to be desired, he has the ability to pop up and kick a goal when it is needed.

Around the ground, Cloke's work is to be admired. Talent or talentless, the guy has a genuine crack for 100% of the time he is on the field. He runs incredibly hard around the ground to create a contest and provide a stong, big bodied marking option for us to aim for. His disposal, for a big lad, is actually extremely good around the ground.

Cloke is in the team for the exact reason that we aren't forced to give Hampson 70% game time. Hampson, quite simply, is not ready for that burden. Sure, he's a talented kid that could have a very bright future, but to expect him to shoulder the ruck in his 2nd year of AFL football is absolutely absurd. Not only will we be at an even more severe disadvantage in the ruck as we are now, but we would be seriously damaging his potential to become a very good player in the future. To suggest that having Cloke in the team is slowing Hampson's development is absolutely absurd - in fact, it's the opposite of the truth. Cloke's inclusion in the side is helping Hampson get accustomed to the rigours of AFL football without shouldering an enormous burden.

Sure, Clokey isn't very talented. Sure, he's not a long term solution. Sure, he'll probably be out of the side in a few years, but don't sell him short with incredible ignorance. He's doing a hell of a lot more good than he is bad for us right now, and in our planning for the future.

 

[blues4flag]

Why must Cloke think he has to kick the cover of the ball every time he gets it? Murphy also loves to spear the ball. Someone teach them to pop the ball out in front, ala Robert Harvey - makes life easier for the receiver, particularly when going forward.

 

[Dustyjackman]

Whilst in no way am I arguing that Clokey is a good player, he's far more valuable to the Carlton side than you give him credit for.

Playing 3 ruckmen in the same side not only gives us a lot of flexibility, but we also have a lot more fire-power up forward, because it allows one of our ruckmen to be played as a permanent forward.

Our other 2 ruckmen in Kreuzer and Hampson are not physically developed enough to be able to shoulder the load in the ruck by themselves. They will get murdered and their bodies will take a physical battering, which really isn't ideal as it could have profound ramafications later in their careers. Cloke is a developed, big-bodied guy that has no trouble with the crash and bash style of football and rucking, so to have a presence like that not only in the ruck, but also around the ground, is invaluable.

Playing Cloke in the side enables us to play Kreuzer up forward for a large amount of the game. Kreuzer is, quite simply, not physically ready to ruck full time. However, he has the body type and size that will often trouble opposition defenses, as we have seen on numerous ocassions throughout the season, including yesterday. Cloke's inclusion also enables Kreuzer to gain some invaluable experience in the ruck without losing a presence up forward. Cloke won't be a star forward, but he does have a very good ability to create a contest in the forward line. He can also take a very good grab, and whilst his goal kicking sometimes leaves plenty to be desired, he has the ability to pop up and kick a goal when it is needed.

Around the ground, Cloke's work is to be admired. Talent or talentless, the guy has a genuine crack for 100% of the time he is on the field. He runs incredibly hard around the ground to create a contest and provide a stong, big bodied marking option for us to aim for. His disposal, for a big lad, is actually extremely good around the ground.

Cloke is in the team for the exact reason that we aren't forced to give Hampson 70% game time. Hampson, quite simply, is not ready for that burden. Sure, he's a talented kid that could have a very bright future, but to expect him to shoulder the ruck in his 2nd year of AFL football is absolutely absurd. Not only will we be at an even more severe disadvantage in the ruck as we are now, but we would be seriously damaging his potential to become a very good player in the future. To suggest that having Cloke in the team is slowing Hampson's development is absolutely absurd - in fact, it's the opposite of the truth. Cloke's inclusion in the side is helping Hampson get accustomed to the rigours of AFL football without shouldering an enormous burden.

Sure, Clokey isn't very talented. Sure, he's not a long term solution. Sure, he'll probably be out of the side in a few years, but don't sell him short with incredible ignorance. He's doing a hell of a lot more good than he is bad for us right now, and in our planning for the future.

Excellent. Well thought out post.

 

[HBF]

I liked the idea of having hampson, cloke and kruezer in, made us more deadly up forward, i think we should keep all 3 in the side

I completely agree. The way our forward line structured up yesterday was fantastic. Fevola played about 25m out, and Kreuzer was in the goalsquare, with the others up around the 50m line. If Hampson can find his form from the preseason, our ruck division starts to look a whole lot stronger.

 

[BlueSnake]

Yep, agree as well.

The 3 ruckman is the best thing at the moment.

And, once our forwards start to get use to the structure hopefully they will stop crashing into one another

 

[blue gunslinger]

Tries his guts out, improves each week and does a job even if not suited

 

[Jezza U Beauty]

Correct - he's not an A grade ruckman, in fact he gest flogged by any decent oppo rucks, but he may as well be retained until we have 3 ruckmen better than him. Clearly, we don't at the minute.

 

[WeninRome]

loved Kruez up forward and Cloke and Hammer swapping in the ruck.

Jacobs had a blinder yesterday too.

 

[windows]

Point of clarification: I didnt mean 'de-list' I meant 'drop'.

But it seems I'm on my own here huh?

 

[Dustyjackman]

Point of clarification: I didnt mean 'de-list' I meant 'drop'.

But it seems I'm on my own here huh?

That's only 'cause we pulled off a great win. Just wait around for the next one we drop, and the calls to have him dropped/and or de-listed will quickly eclipses yours.

At the moment, as we bask in the glory of a win there's lots of love all 'round.

 

[thylacine60]

loved Kruez up forward and Cloke and Hammer swapping in the ruck.

Jacobs had a blinder yesterday too.

More please?

 

[WeninRome]

[/b]

More please?

I still can't find a match report but I listened to the game on radio yesterday and towards the end of the match the commentators were giving him massive raps.

 

[prettyboy65]

Cloke shouldnt be dropped

I think having Cloke, Kruez, and Hammer in the side allows us to have a huge amount of flexibily up forward

we look more dangerous when we arent always looking for Fev

Any one of these three ruckman have the ability to kick a few goals and all cover the ground well
none of them are exceptional tap ruckman YET...But with three ruckman in the team we also have the ability to run opposition ruckman around the ground until they have nothing left to give

 

[blues4flag]

I still can't find a match report but I listened to the game on radio yesterday and towards the end of the match the commentators were giving him massive raps.

2008 VFL Seniors

Coburg Tigers 3.2 6.8 7.13 11.20 (86)
Northern Bullants 2.4 6.6 10.9 11.9 (75)

GOALS:
Coburg Tigers: Collard 3 Hyde 3 Graham 2 Tivendale Caruso Connors
Northern Bullants: Boundy 2 Jackson 2 Blackwell O'hAilpin Hadley Pfeiffer Jacobs Hartlett Edwards

BEST:
Coburg Tigers: Hyde Howat Polo Oakley-Nicholls Horne Connors
Northern Bullants: Blackwell Bannister Pfeiffer Hadley Iacobucci Boundy

REPORTED PLAYERS:
Coburg Tigers: nil
Northern Bullants: nil

 

[WeninRome]

2008 VFL Seniors

Coburg Tigers 3.2 6.8 7.13 11.20 (86)
Northern Bullants 2.4 6.6 10.9 11.9 (75)

GOALS:
Coburg Tigers: Collard 3 Hyde 3 Graham 2 Tivendale Caruso Connors
Northern Bullants: Boundy 2 Jackson 2 Blackwell O'hAilpin Hadley Pfeiffer Jacobs Hartlett Edwards

BEST:
Coburg Tigers: Hyde Howat Polo Oakley-Nicholls Horne Connors
Northern Bullants: Blackwell Bannister Pfeiffer Hadley Iacobucci Boundy

REPORTED PLAYERS:
Coburg Tigers: nil
Northern Bullants: nil

yeah no saw this, just meant a full report from someone who was there

 

[iRemember87]

Cloke was recruiting at Collignwood as a forward and was marked to play CHF, however he had 2 shoulder injuries, so they then delisted him.

Pagan wanted to recruit Ty Zantuc, however powers above made him recruit Cloke as a backup ruckman, a position that he simply hadn't been playing for his years at Collingwood.

Cloke to his credit took this new role and battled hard to get fit (he will always be solid build) played fantastic for his first 6 games and then got injured.

In an interview with Cloke this year he was asked what he did during his rehab time, and his response was he watch Dean Cox dvd's over and over again,t o watch how Cox rucks, and gets mobile around the ground.

Nw for mine, Cloke might not be fast, might not be adgile liek Cox, but boy for a guy of Clokes size he covers the ground better than most, he runs hard to get to space, creates a contest and really does the right thing.

He will never be a 30 hitouts ruckman, he will when our rucks develop be a better option up forward and IMO CHF, just look at the work he does up forward when there, he takes pack marks, he leads and he crunches packs and kicks goals, why cause this is the natual game he knows how to play.

Imagine in the future if we could recruit a good CHB, along with Bower, Jammo, Aussie, Thorton, Carrots, Scotland we could then have a forward line of Fev, Fisher, Betts, Walker, Waite and yes Cloke.

 

[Dustyjackman]

Cloke was recruiting at Collignwood as a forward and was marked to play CHF, however he had 2 shoulder injuries, so they then delisted him.

Pagan wanted to recruit Ty Zantuc, however powers above made him recruit Cloke as a backup ruckman, a position that he simply hadn't been playing for his years at Collingwood.

Cloke to his credit took this new role and battled hard to get fit (he will always be solid build) played fantastic for his first 6 games and then got injured.

In an interview with Cloke this year he was asked what he did during his rehab time, and his response was he watch Dean Cox dvd's over and over again,t o watch how Cox rucks, and gets mobile around the ground.

Nw for mine, Cloke might not be fast, might not be adgile liek Cox, but boy for a guy of Clokes size he covers the ground better than most, he runs hard to get to space, creates a contest and really does the right thing.

He will never be a 30 hitouts ruckman, he will when our rucks develop be a better option up forward and IMO CHF, just look at the work he does up forward when there, he takes pack marks, he leads and he crunches packs and kicks goals, why cause this is the natual game he knows how to play.

Imagine in the future if we could recruit a good CHB, along with Bower, Jammo, Aussie, Thorton, Carrots, Scotland we could then have a forward line of Fev, Fisher, Betts, Walker, Waite and yes Cloke.

I'm with you on all this.

And, for an example of how team oriented he is, did you see him put he's head down and belt off the ground after kicking that goal to get the change over as quick as possible while the ball was on it's way back to the guts. That sort of work ethic impresses the f___ out of me.

 

[thylacine60]

2008 VFL Seniors

Coburg Tigers 3.2 6.8 7.13 11.20 (86)
Northern Bullants 2.4 6.6 10.9 11.9 (75)

GOALS:
Coburg Tigers: Collard 3 Hyde 3 Graham 2 Tivendale Caruso Connors
Northern Bullants: Boundy 2 Jackson 2 Blackwell O'hAilpin Hadley Pfeiffer Jacobs Hartlett Edwards

BEST:
Coburg Tigers: Hyde Howat Polo Oakley-Nicholls Horne Connors
Northern Bullants: Blackwell Bannister Pfeiffer Hadley Iacobucci Boundy

REPORTED PLAYERS:
Coburg Tigers: nil
Northern Bullants: nil

Cheers, B4f. Funny the diverse perceptions of performances. This doesn't mention Jacobs in the top 6 yet bj said he/she heard he was very good.

 

[BlueSnake]

2008 VFL Seniors

Coburg Tigers 3.2 6.8 7.13 11.20 (86)
Northern Bullants 2.4 6.6 10.9 11.9 (75)

Sounds funny to say, but it looks like they missed Ackland down forward....

 

[gbatman]

Cloke has copped some floggings against good ruckmen but I think he's improved his game a bit and having the 3 ruckmen looks good for our ruck and forward setup.