The Cyril Rioli Myth = The Harley Bennell Reality?

[doppleganger]

Yeah, both those midfielders should've been named All Australian ahead of Scott Pendlebury and Dane Swan. Definitely a case of style over substance when they named the Collingwood pair among the Top 10 midfielders of 2012.

Pendles was line-ball due to injury, but Swanny... Pfft. Nice "stats"

Swan is now in the 'style' category!?

Not sure what Swanny has to do with a thread on Rioli though?

They both have ratbag mates?

 

[winty]

They're not opinion based at all, the only award that is opinion based is the MVP. The others are structured or round by round point allocations. This is even in the case of the AA although I think they only convene every 7 rounds or so.

So awards like the Brownlow, where umpires give their opinions week in, week out of who they thought were the best 3 players on the ground in any given game and vote accordingly, isn't, according to you, an award based on opinions?

 

[kidkenobi]

They're not opinion based at all, the only award that is opinion based is the MVP. The others are structured or round by round point allocations. This is even in the case of the AA although I think they only convene every 7 rounds or so.

Yes but those point allocations ultimately come back to someone's opinion on that players performance. The only non-opinion based awards are those based on stats like the Coleman.

Easy to do when you are playing the most games for your club.

You say that as though Bartel has been the only player to play 20ish games per-year for the Cats. Motlop played 22 games last year, so I assume he came 2nd or 3rd?

Commentators make a lot of hasty off-hand remarks. Matthews once said that Franklin is possibly the greatest player to ever play the game while commentating. You have to take those comments with a grain of salt given the context in which they are delivered.

Well I'm not talking about Matthews ever having said anything along the lines of Bartel being the greatest player to ever play the game, but more measured comments about his ability and his value to the team. Also, he's your idol, so surely his opinion counts more than any other commentator.

Btw, commentator gushing is what is used to demonstrate that Rioli is supposedly overrated. Ironic, huh?

Not really, commentators do sometimes make themselves sound ridiculous with their overreactions to Rioli. Bartel is less prone to it because he isn't 'flashy'. Everything about Rioli tends to revert back to him being flashy/magic/dynamic etc. It's something a lot of indigenous players are tagged with - it's what caused Anthony Hudson to describe this goal from Varcoe as 'casual' even after a three-effort 150m gut-run -

but none more-so than Rioli.

 

[Smedts_2]

So basically, Rioli's coaches and teammates rated him as one of the best (along with the AA selectors) but some of the dipshits here on BigFooty think he is overrated. Oh well, people are idiots. There is nothing we can do for them.

Those same coaches and teammates allowed Josh Kennedy to leave for Sydney. Oh well, people are idiots. There is nothing we can do for them.

 

[Rioli magic]

Highly...yeah cute to try and isolate an example that missed my cut-offs, but point being need to set some trigger points....

That's right, I'm just trying to get an understanding of how this system works. At what point does a handball every 12 games turn you from a B grader to an A grader?

What other variables are taken into consideration? Do we include goal assists and tackles or is it just possessions and goals?

 

[doppleganger]

That's right, I'm just trying to get an understanding of how this system works. At what point does a handball every 12 games turn you from a B grader to an A grader?

What other variables are taken into consideration? Do we include goal assists and tackles or is it just possessions and goals?

The point is that guys like Johnson, Ablett, Chapman all showed a clear gap where they elevated their games and went from good player to the consistent A-grader. They consistently have seasons that on a select few players can actually produce.

At what point did Rioli make this jump? When did he go from flashy impact player, to consistent A-grader? Was it 2010?

The thread is about the myth that Rioli would follow down the path of flashy impact player, to a bloke who would dominate as an attacking midfielder ala Ablett. Rioli simply hasn't made the transition, whilst it already looks like Bennell is well on the way.

 

[Rioli magic]

At what point did Rioli make this jump? When did he go from flashy impact player, to consistent A-grader? Was it 2010?

I've never said he has made that jump.

The thread is about the myth that Rioli would follow down the path of flashy impact player, to a bloke who would dominate as an attacking midfielder ala Ablett. Rioli simply hasn't made the transition, whilst it already looks like Bennell is well on the way.

How is Bennell well on his way and Cyril not? According to you if Cyril kicked an extra goal a month he would be elite, or if he got an extra handball every quarter he would be elite. Probably even half way would qualify, a goal every 2 months and a handball every half a game.

Are 5 goals a year worth more than 5 tackles a game?

 

[Hodgepodge]

So awards like the Brownlow, where umpires give their opinions week in, week out of who they thought were the best 3 players on the ground in any given game and vote accordingly, isn't, according to you, an award based on opinions?

They're not opinion based in the sense that the result is the opinion of the umpires, coaches, etc.

Remember the quote I was replying to alleged this.

kidkenobi:
"So you're somehow trying to use your own opinion combined with the opinions of others to rebut someone else's opinion?"

The Brownlow is subject to a somewhat limited voting system which rarely awards the best player in the competition. Sorry, but that's just obvious.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Yes but those point allocations ultimately come back to someone's opinion on that players performance. The only non-opinion based awards are those based on stats like the Coleman.

I can understand winty not following the conversation, but surely you must remember what you said.

kidkenobi
"So you're somehow trying to use your own opinion combined with the opinions of others to rebut someone else's opinion"

There's nothing to suggest that the Brownlow is the umpire's opinion on who the best player is. If that's all it was, then they'd just ask each umpire rather than going through an exhaustive round by round process.

You say that as though Bartel has been the only player to play 20ish games per-year for the Cats. Motlop played 22 games last year, so I assume he came 2nd or 3rd?

Motlop, like Bartel, lacks the quality to win a BnF. But only at the moment, I think in time he could easily nab one.

Well I'm not talking about Matthews ever having said anything along the lines of Bartel being the greatest player to ever play the game

It's all exaggeration, all wank-fodder for the followers of the team or the game. All lazy commentary, getting caught up in the moment. This is how part of how Matthews makes his money these days.

Tim Watson and Anthony Hudson are the most obvious exponents of this though. These two lost their actual interest in the game a long time ago.

Not really, commentators do sometimes make themselves sound ridiculous with their overreactions to Rioli. Bartel is less prone to it because he isn't 'flashy'.

Yet you just gave me an example of Bartel being talked up. I remember Shaun Higgins on SEN last year talking about how McCartney, a former Geelong assistant, would hold up the Geelong team as an example of how to win games. Tim Watson needled him a few times to mention Bartel in particular. After a few goes Higgins finally said something cliche about Bartel.

The headline next morning? http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/be-like-bartel-dogs-afl-coach-20120410-1wmha.html

Everything about Rioli tends to revert back to him being flashy/magic/dynamic etc.

And yet it's completely underrating him, rather than the opposite. You gave a perfect example with Huddo describing Varcoe's goal as 'casual'. It underrates the underlying effort and substance.

So I think we are actually agreeing on a lot of points here, one being that the talking up of Aborginal players actually underrates them rather than the opposite. A focus on 'flash' or 'sizzle' is a decoy for the effort and perspiration that these players put into each game. Nobody talks about how Rioli finished up with more tackles than Gary Ablett Jr last year, more contested possessions than Bartel, more centre clearances than Jude Bolton.

Adam Goodes made this exact same point a few years ago in his article "Stereotypes ignore a lot of hard work".

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/stereotypes-ignore-lot-of-hard-work-20100518-vc9g.html

And he would know.

 

[kidkenobi]

I can understand winty not following the conversation, but surely you must remember what you said.

kidkenobi
"So you're somehow trying to use your own opinion combined with the opinions of others to rebut someone else's opinion"

There's nothing to suggest that the Brownlow is the umpire's opinion on who the best player is. If that's all it was, then they'd just ask each umpire rather than going through an exhaustive round by round process.

But the process boils down to an opinion on who was the BOG week-in-week-out, I'm not going to argue semantics, you know what I'm saying.

Motlop, like Bartel, lacks the quality to win a BnF. But only at the moment, I think in time he could easily nab one.

My point is that you suggesting Bartel's placings in multiple BnFs are simply due to him not missing many games is overly simplistic and just wrong.

It's all exaggeration, all wank-fodder for the followers of the team or the game. All lazy commentary, getting caught up in the moment. This is how part of how Matthews makes his money these days.

Some commentators do carry on, but they're not all like that. I find Matthews to be fairly calculated. Besides, they are all critical of players on occasion too, so it's too easy to just assume everything they say is meaningless. They are paid to commentate, not to simply pump up everyone's tires.

Yet you just gave me an example of Bartel being talked up.

I never said he was being talked up, it's just easier for you to dismiss any praise Matthews had of Bartel by saying that it's just talk for the sake of talk. I though Leigh's comments were apt.

And yet it's completely underrating him, rather than the opposite. You gave a perfect example with Huddo describing Varcoe's goal as 'casual'. It underrates the underlying effort and substance.

So I think we are actually agreeing on a lot of points here, one being that the talking up of Aborginal players actually underrates them rather than the opposite. A focus on 'flash' or 'sizzle' is a decoy for the effort and perspiration that these players put into each game. Nobody talks about how Rioli finished up with more tackles than Gary Ablett Jr last year, more contested possessions than Bartel, more centre clearances than Jude Bolton.

Yes you are right regarding the calling of indigenous players, but again I think you're over-simplifying the matter. The talking up of indigenous players can neglect the genuine hard work and effort being put in, but it can also work the other way, wherein something rather routine or basic gets transformed into some kind of magical feat, and I've seen this many times with Rioli, Ablett too. This isn't to deny that they are capable of magical things, but it becomes erroneous in that the 'sizzle' gets added in by the commentators on occasions where it hasn't even been warranted.

Besides, I think Rioli gets adequate recognition for his tackling and defensive pressure. He may have finished with more tackles than Ablett and more contested possessions than Bartel, but this was only due to the amount of games he played, he averaged less than both of those guys in those categories and in general clearances was well below Bolton also.

 

[doppleganger]

I've never said he has made that jump.



How is Bennell well on his way and Cyril not? According to you if Cyril kicked an extra goal a month he would be elite, or if he got an extra handball every quarter he would be elite. Probably even half way would qualify, a goal every 2 months and a handball every half a game.

Are 5 goals a year worth more than 5 tackles a game?

You don't think Cyril has made the jump to an A-grader, elite or whatever nomenclature you wish to assign? Good you agree with me.

It ain't simply 1 goal extra for a month, the A-grade players back it up year-on-year.

Plenty of players have good years, Jack Anthony jagged 50 goals in a season for fecks sake. It is the players who consistently produce that I consider A-grade.

In 2012, Bennell avg 23.7 disposals, totaling more than 500, whilst managing to avg more than one goal per game. History shows only a few players each year can manage this...hence he is on the way to being A-grade if he keeps performing at his level.

Meanwhile Rioli is still all about his potential, and what you don't see?, yet people rate him as A-grade.

 

[Prudster]

You don't think Cyril has made the jump to an A-grader, elite or whatever nomenclature you wish to assign? Good you agree with me.

It ain't simply 1 goal extra for a month, the A-grade players back it up year-on-year.

Plenty of players have good years, Jack Anthony jagged 50 goals in a season for fecks sake. It is the players who consistently produce that I consider A-grade.

In 2012, Bennell avg 23.7 disposals, totaling more than 500, whilst managing to avg more than one goal per game. History shows only a few players each year can manage this...hence he is on the way to being A-grade if he keeps performing at his level.

Meanwhile Rioli is still all about his potential, and what you don't see?, yet people rate him as A-grade.

So one one hand, Rioli has had an A grade season, but needs to do it more than once to be considered more than 'potential'. On the other hand, Bennell has had a good season (can it be considered A grade for a midfielder?), but he has gone past just potential?

Seems like some double standards right there.

 

[doppleganger]

So one one hand, Rioli has had an A grade season, but needs to do it more than once to be considered more than 'potential'. On the other hand, Bennell has had a good season (can it be considered A grade for a midfielder?), but he has gone past just potential?

Seems like some double standards right there.

?? When did I say I thought Rioli produced an a-grade season?

I am interested to know at what year Hawks fans think his on-field production was enough to be classified as A-grade.....ignoring his talent, potential ceiling and what how good he may be.

IMO Bennell had the break-out year in 2012, if he keeps at this level (or gets better) he will be an A-grade mid.

 

[WWSD]

Cyril Rioli is a small forward and Harley Bennell is a midfielder/wingman. There is a chance that Bennell could be the better player in the long run. So what, it's not a good comparison as they both are different players altogether. One plays mostly as a small forward with stints in the midfield and the other is a full time midfielder. A more reasonable comparison would be Harley Bennell versus Lewis Jetta, they are identical in the way they both play. As for Rioli, he has all the tools and talent to be an A Grader regardless whether he is playing as a small forward or midfielder. If he can become a bit more consistent, then then we have a very good footballer on our hands.

End thread.

 

[Hodgepodge]

But the process boils down to an opinion on who was the BOG week-in-week-out, I'm not going to argue semantics, you know what I'm saying.

No I don't, you boiled it down to my opinion vs. theirs. Which it is not.

My point is that you suggesting Bartel's placings in multiple BnFs are simply due to him not missing many games is overly simplistic and just wrong.

Doubt it, if he had have missed games he wouldn't have gotten near it. Same with Rioli who was 3rd in the Bnf before his shoulder injury late last year. This kind of thing has been tested and found to be true so I wouldn't bother debating it.

I never said he was being talked up.

That's a matter of opinion. I would say he was being talked up.

Yes you are right regarding the calling of indigenous players, but again I think you're over-simplifying the matter. The talking up of indigenous players can neglect the genuine hard work and effort being put in, but it can also work the other way, wherein something rather routine or basic gets transformed into some kind of magical feat

Yeah magical but insubstantial, transient, enigmatic. I know the stereotype. It's an undersell of a player's true quality, but that's why we have committees like the AA team to sort the contenders from the pretenders.

Besides, I think Rioli gets adequate recognition for his tackling and defensive pressure. He may have finished with more tackles than Ablett and more contested possessions than Bartel, but this was only due to the amount of games he played, he averaged less than both of those guys in those categories and in general clearances was well below Bolton also.

Nah, it'd be fairer to just say that Rioli is way ahead in all those categories since he was effectively subbed out or in to his last 3 home and away matches due to a shoulder injury. And still 2nd in goal assists per game for the year. Another stat that gets overlooked. He was first in this last season as well.

The guy's just a gun now.

 

[Prudster]

?? When did I say I thought Rioli produced an a-grade season?

I am interested to know at what year Hawks fans think his on-field production was enough to be classified as A-grade.....ignoring his talent, potential ceiling and what how good he may be.

IMO Bennell had the break-out year in 2012, if he keeps at this level (or gets better) he will be an A-grade mid.

If that is not an A-grade season for a small forward, then i don't know what is

 

[Chewy]

This is Doppleganger engaging in meaningful football discussion with Hawthorn fans

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

This is Doppleganger engaging in meaningful football discussion with Hawthorn fans

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