Strategy The great, big ruckmen thread

[conanthelibrarian]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

You could see yesterday that there is an urgency in Blake's play to try and get "involved" around the ground (that awful piece of play when he intercepted the kick in only to run on and kick the ball out on the full having a shot from 50 instead of following team rules and passing it off), as Mumford seems to do that as part of his natural game.

That same game plan that saw Mooney pass it to Stokes in the pocket, only for McMahon to chop it off, when Mooney was pretty much dead in front?

Had no problems with Blake having the shot, especially since we were 10 goals up at the time.

Personally I like West and would be disappointed to see him move on. He moves well and from the limited times I have watched him play appears to be a reasonable tap ruckman with a good leap.

I have huge doubts however over D.Simpson's capacity to become an AFL ruckman and would be more comfortable if he was the ruckman dropped off the list at years end.

Agree with all of that.

 

[rocker_oz33]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

l like westy he as a bit of aggression in his play,that bump on the saints player little while back was great to see.his ruck work is pretty good but he only seems able to play ruck not a ruck/forward or a ruck/back.that's where mummy as it over him and mummy is monster if west could play as a pinch hitter forward or become a key position player down back he would be a weapon.

 

[THE CAT WRANGLER]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

I think We should delist Dawson and trade West

Go for another key forward with Moons nearly gone and poor draft options next couple of years

 

[rocker_oz33]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

I think We should delist Dawson and trade West

Go for another key forward with Moons nearly gone and poor draft options next couple of years

interesting get rid of both west and Simpson with otto in the twilight of his career and leaves blake and mummy to ruck

 

[alfy!]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

I don't see how West will be able to get a gig at AFL level. Mumford is superior, and we have Ottens and Blake as the first two options.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

I don't see how West will be able to get a gig at AFL level. Mumford is superior, and we have Ottens and Blake as the first two options.

Ottens is almost done, lets face it he's pulled over 200 games out of his smashed up body already, and is 30 next year, and has missed PLENTY of footy in 08/09 (already), It would be pretty short-sighted of us to dump all our backup ruckmen. If Dawson sucks, then so be it - let him go, but West I think should be looked at as a KPP option as well as a ruckman. The guy is very mobile for a 198cm player, Moreso than, say, Playfair, and it would be a shame to see him get picked up by someone else and thrive, keeping in mind that Mooney is almost finished too, and crap drafts coming up and blah blah blah.

 

[alfy!]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

Ottens still has multiple seasons left in him. Blake and Mumford could be our next-generation ruck duo for a decade. I just doubt West has the ability to take his game to the next level, especially as a KPP.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

Ottens still has multiple seasons left in him. Blake and Mumford could be our next-generation ruck duo for a decade. I just doubt West has the ability to take his game to the next level, especially as a KPP.

I admire your optimism

 

[meto]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

Now we've got 3 afl standard rucks, 1 in the making, Mumford, I think we should turn over some big guys when we can.
Maybe we'll find a couple of good key players or rucks.
Wests been seen, and nobody rates Simpson as having much potential.
Not alot to loose there, but something to gain maybe.

 

[rizzo]

Re: Opinions on Trent West

Unless West leaves then I think we will keep all four ruckmen. Dawson was drafted as a long term prospect and I can't see him being delisted after two years. He is still another 3 away IMHO.

 

[The Hulkster]

Blake vs Mumford and the future of our rucks.

I have a theory on our rucks.

Now as good as Blake is i think i can see a better future for Mumford than Blake. Blake is a great tap ruckman, but unfortunately thats where it ends. We cant knock him for his effort but lets be realistic after the ball ups and throw ins what does he do. He doesnt take contested marks, he is to slow to tackle and he still cant kick.

Now Mumford has only played 10 or so games but i see a much bigger upside to him than Blake. His ruck work is ok, but that can be improved easily over time. But it is his work aftger the tap out that he excels in. His chasing and tacking is great and he can kick and he really gets involved in the game. And he has only played 10 games, imagine him after 50.

Therein lies the big question, is Mumford better than Blake?

I think yes. Maybe not now, but the gap is narrow. But in the long term i think Mumford is a better option. The way a modern ruckman plays is better suited to Mumford than Blake.

Now i get to my theory.

I see Ottens as maybe having 2 years left hopefully 3. Now in that time Mumford could really have developed well and i dont think playing him in the 2's forever behind Blake and Ottens is good.

Now we have the Gold Coast coming in and they have heaps of draft picks up for sale. Keep Blake for next year then trade him to the Gold Coast for a great pick. They would love a ready made ruckman (maybe a premiership one). I think in 2 years time that Mumford will get a game in front of Blake anyway so he may want to leave for better game time as well.

As for back up, well by then Dawson Simpson should hopefully be up and running, West may still be around or we may have another young ruck prospect on our list.

So theres my ruck theory what do you think.

 

[rizzo]

Re: Blake vs Mumford and the future of our rucks.

I have a theory on our rucks.

Now as good as Blake is i think i can see a better future for Mumford than Blake. Blake is a great tap ruckman, but unfortunately thats where it ends. We cant knock him for his effort but lets be realistic after the ball ups and throw ins what does he do. He doesnt take contested marks, he is to slow to tackle and he still cant kick.

When we have a midfield of Selwood, Corey, Ablett, Bartel, Ling, Chapman etc, you don't need Blake to get a lot of possessions.

In a team such as us that relies on our smalls and getting a lot of first usage, I'd rather Blake get 30 hitouts and one possession then 30 touches and 20 hit outs. If Blake can continue to improve his efficiency in the ruck contest then he will be easily be our number one ruck.

Guys like Cox have blown the ruckmans role way out of proportion. For me, If a ruckman gets more hit outs to advantage then the other ruckman then they have done their job. Let our A grade midfielders worry about the possessions and let Blakey worry about giving them hit outs on a platter.

 

[Tay29]

Re: Blake vs Mumford and the future of our rucks.

When we have a midfield of Selwood, Corey, Ablett, Bartel, Ling, Chapman etc, you don't need Blake to get a lot of possessions.

In a team such as us that relies on our smalls and getting a lot of first usage, I'd rather Blake get 30 hitouts and one possession then 30 touches and 20 hit outs. If Blake can continue to improve his efficiency in the ruck contest then he will be easily be our number one ruck.

Guys like Cox have blown the ruckmans role way out of proportion. For me, If a ruckman gets more hit outs to advantage then the other ruckman then they have done their job. Let our A grade midfielders worry about the possessions and let Blakey worry about giving them hit outs on a platter.

I agree that Cox has set the standard too high, just like Franklin and KP forward development., and that it's unfair to judge rucks against him. However this all comes down to personal preference and what you can live with. I side with Luke Darcy who said that modern ruckman have to do more than tap work. The game has moved past players only fulfilling one skill. Relying on our midfield to take up Blake's slack isn't an ideal situation to me. It's almost like it's 17 vs 18 players when the ball hits the ground because Blake has so little presence in general play.

I would much prefer a ruckmen who wins slightly less tap outs but can rack up 15-20 possession, take contested marks and actually put pressure on his direct opponent.

That said I think that Mumford is the weakest in actually getting his hands first to the ball in tap work. Ottens, Blake and West are all ahead of him.

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Blake has got to go for Mummy. Convinced after last nights game. For a bloke to play 65% of the match in a midfield (and yes he is a midfielder!) that has it 500 times, and only getting it 5 times himself is not good enough. Problem is, it wasnt a one off. Blake is typically a tap and watch ruckman. Doesn't take contested marks. Looks like the art of playing footy (as opposed to the art of rucking) is a foreign concept to him. He appears panicky when he actually does get the pill. I am sick of watching him be a passenger in an otherwise dominant midfield. To these posters who reckon he doesnt need to be a dominanat running onballer given Ablett, Bartel, Corey and co, that is a very near enough good enough attitude. Imagine if we had Cox in the ruck, we'd take things up ANOTHER notch!!! As it stands the difference when Ottens is in the middle as opposed to Blake is huge. Mummy shows huge potential, and 10 games partnering with Ottens is going to be massive for his development. Blakes not getting any better. Trade him now while he still has some currency.

 

[darren forssman]

Blake has got to go for Mummy. Convinced after last nights game. For a bloke to play 65% of the match in a midfield (and yes he is a midfielder!) that has it 500 times, and only getting it 5 times himself is not good enough. Problem is, it wasnt a one off. Blake is typically a tap and watch ruckman. Doesn't take contested marks. Looks like the art of playing footy (as opposed to the art of rucking) is a foreign concept to him. He appears panicky when he actually does get the pill. I am sick of watching him be a passenger in an otherwise dominant midfield. To these posters who reckon he doesnt need to be a dominanat running onballer given Ablett, Bartel, Corey and co, that is a very near enough good enough attitude. Imagine if we had Cox in the ruck, we'd take things up ANOTHER notch!!! As it stands the difference when Ottens is in the middle as opposed to Blake is huge. Mummy shows huge potential, and 10 games partnering with Ottens is going to be massive for his development. Blakes not getting any better. Trade him now while he still has some currency.

mumford was as horrible as blake last night and was next to useless in hitouts. and this against a trier in hudson.

 

[rizzo]

Blake has got to go for Mummy. Convinced after last nights game. For a bloke to play 65% of the match in a midfield (and yes he is a midfielder!) that has it 500 times, and only getting it 5 times himself is not good enough. Problem is, it wasnt a one off. Blake is typically a tap and watch ruckman. Doesn't take contested marks. Looks like the art of playing footy (as opposed to the art of rucking) is a foreign concept to him. He appears panicky when he actually does get the pill. I am sick of watching him be a passenger in an otherwise dominant midfield. To these posters who reckon he doesnt need to be a dominanat running onballer given Ablett, Bartel, Corey and co, that is a very near enough good enough attitude. Imagine if we had Cox in the ruck, we'd take things up ANOTHER notch!!! As it stands the difference when Ottens is in the middle as opposed to Blake is huge. Mummy shows huge potential, and 10 games partnering with Ottens is going to be massive for his development. Blakes not getting any better. Trade him now while he still has some currency.

Not really, its the truth. If he is tapping it down the throats of our on ballers then that is all that matters. Let our best players do the work and let Blakey work on his ruckwork. Sadly not every team can have a Cox, and if you think Mumford will get to anywhere near that standard then you are going to be disappointed.

 

[tiredcat]

Blake has got to go for Mummy. Convinced after last nights game. For a bloke to play 65% of the match in a midfield (and yes he is a midfielder!) that has it 500 times, and only getting it 5 times himself is not good enough. Problem is, it wasnt a one off. Blake is typically a tap and watch ruckman. Doesn't take contested marks. Looks like the art of playing footy (as opposed to the art of rucking) is a foreign concept to him. He appears panicky when he actually does get the pill. I am sick of watching him be a passenger in an otherwise dominant midfield. To these posters who reckon he doesnt need to be a dominanat running onballer given Ablett, Bartel, Corey and co, that is a very near enough good enough attitude. Imagine if we had Cox in the ruck, we'd take things up ANOTHER notch!!! As it stands the difference when Ottens is in the middle as opposed to Blake is huge. Mummy shows huge potential, and 10 games partnering with Ottens is going to be massive for his development. Blakes not getting any better. Trade him now while he still has some currency.

Are we starting rebuilding next year because getting rid of Blake would leave us with an aging injury prone all Australian partnered by 2 learners.

Blake had his worst game this year against the dogs but still probably broke even in the ruck duals.

The dogs outplayed us at our own game continually going third man up to get a clearance which last year was Coreys Strength.
Mumford had a reallity check and found the going very tough against a second string ruckman with a strong body.

To get a ruckman like Cox! Well theres not to many around and we couldn't afford one anyway and it takes a least 3 years to train one and even then its hit and miss. Who of last 2 years drafted ruckmen are currently playing. (Kreuzer is more an onballer than a Ruckman)

Get used to what we've got because its what our hopes are pinned on in the next couple of years

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Are we starting rebuilding next year because getting rid of Blake would leave us with an aging injury prone all Australian partnered by 2 learners.

Blake had his worst game this year against the dogs but still probably broke even in the ruck duals.

The dogs outplayed us at our own game continually going third man up to get a clearance which last year was Coreys Strength.
Mumford had a reallity check and found the going very tough against a second string ruckman with a strong body.

To get a ruckman like Cox! Well theres not to many around and we couldn't afford one anyway and it takes a least 3 years to train one and even then its hit and miss. Who of last 2 years drafted ruckmen are currently playing. (Kreuzer is more an onballer than a Ruckman)

Get used to what we've got because its what our hopes are pinned on in the next couple of years

I know Mummy was poor last night, but still had it 8 times to Blakes 5. not only that, Honestly. Please please please go back and watch his last 4 games. He is a more fluid mover. He reads the play better. He has a bit more of a mean streak. And all this after a haful of games and not going through the usual development chanels. Seriously. He has so much potential, as opposed to Blake who honestly, we have seen his potential. He is as good as he's gonna get. I'm sure he is a lovely fella. His dad was a great Cats man. But seriously. He is a liability. At least with Mummy, there is still a huge amount of upside. He can be taught the ruckwork. Blake will never be a footballer.

 

[CF]

here it is with blake...a good game and yeah he is doing fine....a bad game...off with his head

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

here it is with blake...a good game and yeah he is doing fine....a bad game...off with his head

Sorry... when was his good game? haha

 

[tiredcat]

I know Mummy was poor last night, but still had it 8 times to Blakes 5. not only that, Honestly. Please please please go back and watch his last 4 games. He is a more fluid mover. He reads the play better. He has a bit more of a mean streak. And all this after a haful of games and not going through the usual development chanels. Seriously. He has so much potential, as opposed to Blake who honestly, we have seen his potential. He is as good as he's gonna get. I'm sure he is a lovely fella. His dad was a great Cats man. But seriously. He is a liability. At least with Mummy, there is still a huge amount of upside. He can be taught the ruckwork. Blake will never be a footballer.

Im not disputing Mumy may be good Ive watched a lot off his VFL games and have been impressed and in time he may be very good. But hes not ready yet to be No1 ruckman
Barring a real bad run of injuries we can hope to be a top side for maybe 2 more years before our key players start retiring maybe chase easy money at GC get a bit slower and the inevitable slide begins.

So again my question is who rucks next year if you sell Blake and Ottens starts the season in rehab again missing the first half of the year or heaven forbid misses the whole season.

St Kildas rise this year with basically the same cattle can be attributed to lack of injuries and a coach who can see the value of Winning ruckmen after years of Grant Thomas thinking ruckmen where as usefull as an ash tray on a motorbike

 

[Cohzee]

Re: Blake, Mummy or Ottens

Mummy is better around the ground the Blake, however Blake is better in the ruck.

IMO, its a flip of the coin, yet the selection committee will go with Blake as he is proven.

This. Mumford runs hard and makes second efforts, but Blake has the ruck skills.

So many times last night I was bitching about Blake just loping around not making a decent effort.

I have always been a Blake supporter BTW.

 

[Tay29]

Not really, its the truth. If he is tapping it down the throats of our on ballers then that is all that matters. Let our best players do the work and let Blakey work on his ruckwork. Sadly not every team can have a Cox, and if you think Mumford will get to anywhere near that standard then you are going to be disappointed.

And what does he offer to the side when he's not tapping it the midfielders like the other night Rizzo? When he loses the ruck he doesn't have the ability to impose himself in other areas like going forward or back. He's a one trick pony. I am not saying he should be like Cox but there are plenty of ruckmen out there who are capable of playing in other areas of the ground and making an impact when they are losing the ruck.

 

[darren forssman]

Blake had his worst game this year against the dogs but still probably broke even in the ruck duals.

Mumford had a reallity check and found the going very tough against a second string ruckman with a strong body.

hudson had more hitouts and hitouts to advantage than blake and his total possessions from memory was either the total or one less than the combined mumford/blake possessions.

this is a game that blake/mumford should have dominated.

i just expected more from them.

 

[vinum coupe]

And what does he offer to the side when he's not tapping it the midfielders like the other night Rizzo? When he loses the ruck he doesn't have the ability to impose himself in other areas like going forward or back. He's a one trick pony. I am not saying he should be like Cox but there are plenty of ruckmen out there who are capable of playing in other areas of the ground and making an impact when they are losing the ruck.

It's interesting that. In 06 / 07 I thought King had turned into a one trick pony. Almost like he had lost the fitness to run to a contest.

And I actually thought that when king was out in 07 that Blake had been told by the assistants that "if you want to keep King out, then you had better do the things he doesn't".

Maybe the change up in pace has caught him out a bit?