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Strategy The great, big ruckmen thread
- Thread starter CATACK
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- Aug 16, 2006
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Yes, a ruckmen is technically a mid-fielder, but his role is completely different. How many rucks have you seen who are "a dominant running onballer"? Seriously, not even the great Simon Madden, one of the games more celebrated mobile ruckmen, could be considered a "running onballer".
Definately time to bring westy back into the team after blake and mumfords efforts friday night. He got more hitouts and possesions then blake and mumford put together and dominated the vfl. Blake and mumford did not even have great ruckmen to go against and should of dominated. The trial of mumford in the ruck has to stop he needs to go back to the vfl.
- Jan 30, 2007
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Why do people keep blowing up Blake's tyres with respect to his pure ruck work? As far as I can tell, he gets his hand on the pill about 25 times a game, yet only 3 or 4 of those occasions entail a clean transfer of the ball to one of our midfielders. And for every one of these taps to advantage, there is a tap to disadvantage. More alarming still, is that time after time I see him contest a centre bounce, and completely miss the tap, or miss-time the jump as a result of watching the other ruckman.
Now I'm not saying Mumford is any better at tapwork. In fact, I'll concede that he's worse. But he's played half a dozen games to Blake's 60 or 70. If Blake couldn't get his hand to the pill by now he'd be as useful as a pie wrapper floating across the ground.
BTW, has anyone noticed that Mummy is bloody adept at getting off a clean and quick handball under pressure?
Now I'm not saying Mumford is any better at tapwork. In fact, I'll concede that he's worse. But he's played half a dozen games to Blake's 60 or 70. If Blake couldn't get his hand to the pill by now he'd be as useful as a pie wrapper floating across the ground.
BTW, has anyone noticed that Mummy is bloody adept at getting off a clean and quick handball under pressure?
Vdubs
Hall of Famer
NO, under pressure he coughed up 2 consecutive handballs and cost us a goal in that high pressure last/4
- Jan 30, 2007
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So you haven't noticed.
Two bad mistakes I agree, but the difference is effort. Mumford was in the contest trying to get the ball out. Where is Blake in these instances? If you want an answer go back to last week's game and watch the play that ended in Higgins' goal where Bartel got reported for tripping(I think that is the play). Twice Minson goes in for the ball and gets it out. Where is Blake(his opponent)? Standing 5m off the ball watching. Not good enough. I prefer a guy who may make a mistake but is in the contest trying to help his team.
Not the only example of Blake standing back and watching and the camera is on a good enough angle that it's clearly visible.
I cry everytime I see Steven King touch the footy. I love the Cats recruiting dept, and you can't fault our coaching panels decision's int he past, but I sincerely reckon they got this one wrong. Kingy would have been sooooo much better for us the last 2 years than Blake. I understand their thinking at the time, but gee it's been a bad decision in hindsight. For one, trading Blake back then would have gotten them a much better pick than the non existant one Kingy got us. Anyway.. its all done now. Just hope we don't make the same mistake twice - trade Blake while he still has currency. That said, he's startign to get bad press now - people are waking up to the fact he is a dud. Still...Richmond might give us a first rounder for him...
i dont have the replay to look back on (stupid lg dvd recorder timer that doesnt work) but wasnt minson playing as a forward at the time?
the same king whose only contested mark in 2007 was against a goal umpire?
the same king who couldnt get off the ground to contest centre bounces?
You are kidding arent you? The Former Club Captain who at the time was still getting back to his best after injury (Blake has no such excuse) The same premiership ruckman yes. The same one that is daylight ahead of Blake on THIS YEAR'S form. Yep. That Steven King.
And again I ask
Are we starting rebuilding next year because getting rid of Blake would leave us with an aging injury prone all Australian partnered by 2 learners.
I seriously reckon that 25 to 30 games into him and Mumford will easily be where Blake is now. that mind you wouldn't be too hard. All he has to do is break even at the center bounces and then meander around the ground the rest of the game, hands on hips.
rizzo
Brownlow Medallist
- Sep 11, 2003
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I'm really sorry, but you are talking rubbish. While I realise stats don't tell the whole story, have a look at the past two seasons King V Blake.
2009
2008
Now, Blake is significantly younger, still learning and is yet to still be the number one ruckman at the club on a full time basis. Once this happens and he under performs then criticize the bloke. Until get off his back and let him learn and play the caper like he is meant to do. I'm sorry if you bias gets in the way, but the facts are that the club made the decision. They know more about each player then us and would have spent time thinking about the decision. They decided Blake has a better future at the club then king, they also think Blake has the potential to lead the clubs ruck division.
no im not, im undecided on blake but king was awful in 2007 and hadnt played a full season in 3-4 years. he couldnt jump off the ground and was next to useless at centre bounces.
what was the club going to do?
go forward with an ageing ruckman that hadnt played a full season or a young ruckman still learning the trade?
Archie Thompson Fan
Debutant
agreed, too often do i see blake spectating contests when that all is required from him is a contest ( i.e at the end of the bulldogs game in the back pocket) Mumford is not gifted with big foot height though or ruck smarts (taps to advantage)though makes up for it with his effort and heart. He makes a great foil for Ottens with his persistance to out-hustle the opposition ruck.
If you look at my previous post, I said that I completely understand why the club made that decision at the time. That said they made it and now they have to live by it. I get that. Doesn't change the fact that Blake ISN"T coming up, no matter how much the Rizzo's of the world wish or pretend he is. It's nothing to do with bias whatsoever. Just cn't understand how people can honestly watch him, and not see that he doesn't work hard enough, get to as many marking contests, tackle enough etc. anyway, nothing personal against Blake or any of his fanclub in here for that matter. We are all entitled to an opinion, and mine is that Mumford would be a better 2nd ruckman behind Ottens than Blake, and the games they give him instead of Blake would stand him in excellent stead should Otto go down again in the future. Rizzo mentioned that Blake hasn't had a shot at being number one ruckman, but both last year and this year he has had EXTENDED periods of being just that, and both times he has disappointed MASSIVELY. I reckon deep down Bomber would rue letting King go - yes it was the right decision at the time - but with hindsight it was clearly wrong.
- Jan 30, 2007
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Rizzo, Blake is 23, turning 24 in September, and has played 67 games. Of those 67 games, a good 15 or so have been as the number 1 ruckman, both this year and last... do you honestly believe he's going to get a whole lot better?
BTW, I agree that keeping Blake and letting King go was the right thing to do. I'm not arguing with anyone there. I am however, fairly baffled as to what some people see in Blake that is so worthy of defence... Granted, he's more valuable than Mumford or West RIGHT NOW, but that is really not saying a lot, given his stage of development compared to the others.
I particularly feel that all this talk of his good ruckwork is pretty much rubbish. Statistically he gets a lot of taps, even relative to the league's other ruckman, but you only have to watch him to know that the vast majority of his taps are devoid of any form of art or control, arising mostly from simple efforts of strength and desperation. This is no more apparent than when you consider how much better our mids clear the ball when Ottens is rucking, despite the fact that Ottens doesn't get many more hitouts than Blake in terms of sheer quantity.
Pivo
Brownlow Medallist
** Let me preface this with the statement - I am a Blake supporter.
While I understand where some posters are coming from regarding Blake's work around the ground - I have been a critic in the past as well - I do think he has gotten better at this over the last couple of years.
He makes himself available to provide a link in the chain, sometimes he is used, sometimes he is by-passed. However I do think most ruckmen get by-passed the majority of the time.
The main issue I have with him is his inability to get back into defence to plug a hole or make it harder for opposition forwards. Other than that, I think he is travelling along OK.
He is the best option behind Ottens right now - that seems to be common consensus, his tapwork is up there with the top tier ruckmen in the comp. However, in some people's eyes he can't win - dominate the ruck they'll say the taps to advantage should be higher. Lose the stoppages, the blame is laid at Blake's feet (even though Geelong traditionally always goes in with 2 ruckmen) for not getting his hand on it often enough. Was Mumford better than Blake last week, not from where I'm sitting. Yet Mumford is cut slack because he is less than 10 games into his career. However, Blake has been copping it almost from the get go. Has Blake improved since his first 10 games? Of course he has. People get blinkered, it happens to everyone. Do I see Tenace play a good game - nope, never. Even when he does, because I have a bias against him.
I bet if Blake was put on the trade table for a mid 30 to late 40s pick and another club took him people who bagged him would be the first to say the club got ripped off.
Sandilands is only now starting to reach his full potential and showing what everyone wants to see in their ruckman. In 2 years this bloke will be nigh on unstoppable. Like Blake, his tapwork was high in number but low in effectiveness, that is now changing. Proof that change can occur if given time.
Blake, IMO, just needs to start doing some more around the ground, especially down back. Would I like to see him take more marks? Yes I would.
Just ask yourself a question (and take King out of the equation because, rightly or wrongly he's gone baby, gone). With Ottens down, would you rather Blake & Mumford, Blake & West or Mumford & West?
I'd also put this out there - does Geelong have a full-time ruck coach? A part-time coach?
With Blake, Mumford, West and D. Simpson on the list maybe the club should consider it. Especially in light of Ottens this and last year.
While I understand where some posters are coming from regarding Blake's work around the ground - I have been a critic in the past as well - I do think he has gotten better at this over the last couple of years.
He makes himself available to provide a link in the chain, sometimes he is used, sometimes he is by-passed. However I do think most ruckmen get by-passed the majority of the time.
The main issue I have with him is his inability to get back into defence to plug a hole or make it harder for opposition forwards. Other than that, I think he is travelling along OK.
He is the best option behind Ottens right now - that seems to be common consensus, his tapwork is up there with the top tier ruckmen in the comp. However, in some people's eyes he can't win - dominate the ruck they'll say the taps to advantage should be higher. Lose the stoppages, the blame is laid at Blake's feet (even though Geelong traditionally always goes in with 2 ruckmen) for not getting his hand on it often enough. Was Mumford better than Blake last week, not from where I'm sitting. Yet Mumford is cut slack because he is less than 10 games into his career. However, Blake has been copping it almost from the get go. Has Blake improved since his first 10 games? Of course he has. People get blinkered, it happens to everyone. Do I see Tenace play a good game - nope, never. Even when he does, because I have a bias against him.
I bet if Blake was put on the trade table for a mid 30 to late 40s pick and another club took him people who bagged him would be the first to say the club got ripped off.
Sandilands is only now starting to reach his full potential and showing what everyone wants to see in their ruckman. In 2 years this bloke will be nigh on unstoppable. Like Blake, his tapwork was high in number but low in effectiveness, that is now changing. Proof that change can occur if given time.
Blake, IMO, just needs to start doing some more around the ground, especially down back. Would I like to see him take more marks? Yes I would.
Just ask yourself a question (and take King out of the equation because, rightly or wrongly he's gone baby, gone). With Ottens down, would you rather Blake & Mumford, Blake & West or Mumford & West?
I'd also put this out there - does Geelong have a full-time ruck coach? A part-time coach?
With Blake, Mumford, West and D. Simpson on the list maybe the club should consider it. Especially in light of Ottens this and last year.
Is this bloke a journalist, bigfooty trawler or maybe one of our posters
GEELONG ADVERTISER article sat 30/5/09
Selection quandary has everyone wondering about Geelong's ruckmen
Joel Cresswell
May 30th, 2009
AS THE larger battle rages around them, an internal scrap between two Cats tomorrow will shape a key selection quandary in Geelong's 2009 campaign.
A knee injury to lead ruckman Brad Ottens in round two opened the door for the 22-year-old rookie-listed Shane Mumford, who has exceeded most expectations since.
So much so that the Cats coaching staff could face a tough call between Mumford and his more senior ruck colleague, Mark Blake, upon Ottens' expected return within a month.
Mumford has averaged 10.3 disposals and around 12 hit-outs per game while playing 50 per cent of each match; Blake, 9.7 disposals and almost 27 hit-outs in 60 per cent of his nine games.
But it's their presence around the contest with the ball at ground level when the discrepancy between the two ruckmen is most evident.
Mumford averages 4.5 tackles to Blake's one, gathers two more contested possessions per game and wins an extra clearance.
Mumford also looks much more composed with the ball in his hands which could pay dividends in the heat of the finals.
One round eight passage of play against the Kangaroos demonstrated Mumford's poise.
Aware of an opponent bearing down as he waited under a slow pass on the wing, Mumford freed his arms, wore the tackle and handballed to a teammate down the line.
His versatility was further highlighted that game when Mark Thompson moved him to defence to counter a tall Roos forward line.
Another interesting comparison between the pair is their free-kick count for and against.
Mumford has won six free kicks and conceded five while Blake sports a ratio of eight to 14, albeit it over three more games.
Thompson remained diplomatic when asked whether Mumford had passed Blake as the preferred number two at a recent press conference.
"For some reason Blakey doesn't get the recognition but he's is a really strong ruckman who hits the ball to areas that our onballers want it hit to," he said.
"He obviously doesn't look fluent around the ground and is maybe not as intense at ground level as Mumford but he's still very important."
GEELONG ADVERTISER article sat 30/5/09
Selection quandary has everyone wondering about Geelong's ruckmen
Joel Cresswell
May 30th, 2009
AS THE larger battle rages around them, an internal scrap between two Cats tomorrow will shape a key selection quandary in Geelong's 2009 campaign.
A knee injury to lead ruckman Brad Ottens in round two opened the door for the 22-year-old rookie-listed Shane Mumford, who has exceeded most expectations since.
So much so that the Cats coaching staff could face a tough call between Mumford and his more senior ruck colleague, Mark Blake, upon Ottens' expected return within a month.
Mumford has averaged 10.3 disposals and around 12 hit-outs per game while playing 50 per cent of each match; Blake, 9.7 disposals and almost 27 hit-outs in 60 per cent of his nine games.
But it's their presence around the contest with the ball at ground level when the discrepancy between the two ruckmen is most evident.
Mumford averages 4.5 tackles to Blake's one, gathers two more contested possessions per game and wins an extra clearance.
Mumford also looks much more composed with the ball in his hands which could pay dividends in the heat of the finals.
One round eight passage of play against the Kangaroos demonstrated Mumford's poise.
Aware of an opponent bearing down as he waited under a slow pass on the wing, Mumford freed his arms, wore the tackle and handballed to a teammate down the line.
His versatility was further highlighted that game when Mark Thompson moved him to defence to counter a tall Roos forward line.
Another interesting comparison between the pair is their free-kick count for and against.
Mumford has won six free kicks and conceded five while Blake sports a ratio of eight to 14, albeit it over three more games.
Thompson remained diplomatic when asked whether Mumford had passed Blake as the preferred number two at a recent press conference.
"For some reason Blakey doesn't get the recognition but he's is a really strong ruckman who hits the ball to areas that our onballers want it hit to," he said.
"He obviously doesn't look fluent around the ground and is maybe not as intense at ground level as Mumford but he's still very important."
rizzo
Brownlow Medallist
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Wouldn't really call it diplomatic. I think bomber backed up Blake as our number 2 right there.
rizzo
Brownlow Medallist
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I'll reserve my judgement on Blake until he has played 100 games. By then 60-70 of them will be as our #1.
Disappointing? I thought Blake has been pretty good as our number 1. Apart from the Bulldogs game I can't say he hasn't performed.
I don't think Mark Blake can become a dominant 2nd ruckman to Brad Ottens when Brad Ottens returns from injury.
Brad Ottens has demonstrated the ability to control the game through his ruckwork around the ground and his ability to position himself in certain zones and areas of the ground. Ottens is an attacking ruckman and he has displayed this characteristic since his transfer from Richmond in 2005.
Mark Blake cannot control a game from the ruck. Even though he is a good tap ruckman, his mobility around the ground has a lot to be desired.
If Geelong plays the Saints in the Grand Final and Blake is rucking against King, I think King would put him through the cleaners.
Shane Mumford is the best ruck prospect at Geelong since Damian Bourke and Darren Flanigan.
Brad Ottens has demonstrated the ability to control the game through his ruckwork around the ground and his ability to position himself in certain zones and areas of the ground. Ottens is an attacking ruckman and he has displayed this characteristic since his transfer from Richmond in 2005.
Mark Blake cannot control a game from the ruck. Even though he is a good tap ruckman, his mobility around the ground has a lot to be desired.
If Geelong plays the Saints in the Grand Final and Blake is rucking against King, I think King would put him through the cleaners.
Shane Mumford is the best ruck prospect at Geelong since Damian Bourke and Darren Flanigan.
mumford our number 1 ruckman
ive gotta tell ya this guy is about to become one of the best ruckman in the league..agree or disagree he will be cats number 1 ruckman by finals time.
ive gotta tell ya this guy is about to become one of the best ruckman in the league..agree or disagree he will be cats number 1 ruckman by finals time.
