Strategy The great, big ruckmen thread

[Catsmaninamerica]

Crap. He had 7 possessions (zero kicks) and 1 mark today. He was an absolute non-factor in the game.



Then we could field a ruck tandem comprising a bloke who had zero possessions in his last game, and a bloke who had zero kicks and 1 mark in his last game. Awesome.

Much sooner have Mummy getting it 7 times and not crapping himself, turning it over and generally looking like he should have a handicapped sticker for his car... Again. I am SURE Blake is a great fella, but he isn't a league footballer. Mumford looks more comfortable at this level after a handful of games than Blake does after 60 odd. He uses it much better, his skills below his knees are much better. Seriously. Some of the Blake coloured glasses some people wear astound me. The one arguement you seem to go on with is that Blake is "great in the ruck" Rubbish. He has been bent over many times this year, as mentioned in previous posts. What we saw yesterday, was a fella who got beaten like an ugly red headed step child in just about every ruck contest - it was embarrasing to watch Cox throw him around (so much for Blake being so much stronger this year) Time will show us who is right in this long runningn arguement, but I'd be willing to wager a couple of slabs of Bacardi Breezers that Mumford will partner ottens through September.

 

[Hinkley29]

Much sooner have Mummy getting it 7 times and not crapping himself, turning it over and generally looking like he should have a handicapped sticker for his car... Again. I am SURE Blake is a great fella, but he isn't a league footballer. Mumford looks more comfortable at this level after a handful of games than Blake does after 60 odd. He uses it much better, his skills below his knees are much better. Seriously. Some of the Blake coloured glasses some people wear astound me. The one arguement you seem to go on with is that Blake is "great in the ruck" Rubbish. He has been bent over many times this year, as mentioned in previous posts. What we saw yesterday, was a fella who got beaten like an ugly red headed step child in just about every ruck contest - it was embarrasing to watch Cox throw him around (so much for Blake being so much stronger this year) Time will show us who is right in this long runningn arguement, but I'd be willing to wager a couple of slabs of Bacardi Breezers that Mumford will partner ottens through September.

I said nothing about Blake's game today. He was average at best, but I didn't feel the need to comment on it as it was plain for all to see.

However, you feel the need to pump the tyres of Mumford who did absolutely nothing today. And apparently I am the one with the coloured glasses on........

As usual you used a whole heap of words to say absolutely nothing.

 

[alfy!]

Mumford had his first average game today. Get off his back.

 

[Hinkley29]

Mumford had his first average game today. Get off his back.

Who are you, his mum?

I am not on his back, just pointing out that this is not the week to be pumping his tyres.

 

[Generalissimo]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Mumford had a great game. Both he and Blake got towelled up by Cox, but that's not the point.

Did Mumford play better than Blake? Yes.
Has Mumford shown more than Blake in every game he's played this year? Yes.
Should Mumford remain 2nd ruck when Otto comes back? Hell yes.

 

[alfy!]

Who are you, his mum?

I am not on his back, just pointing out that this is not the week to be pumping his tyres.

Yeah it is, because every one of his other games have been great. Shown much more than Blake, and that is a real worry for Blake.

 

[Claude Balls]

personally, im undecided, but it is a tale of two cities from my perspective.

blake, is effective at centre bounces and next to useless around the ground (that shan pass to blake in the 1st or 2nd was bordering on comical)...mumford is useleless at centre bounces but is much more effective and agile around the ground.

if mumford had west's athleticism or leap this argument would be null an void.

Is he though? Everytime I watch him closely in the centre bounce duels all he seems to do is watch his opponent right up until he knows he's not going to cop one in the gulags, and then lunge at the pill unsuccesfully. Mumford is no better at centre bounces, but he's about 10x better around the ground, as you say.

 

[The Governor]

Shane Mumford is a better ruckman than Mark Blake.

Blake does his good work at the centre bounces whilst Mumford has the mobility to match it with Dean Cox and co in a couple of years time.

I would be prepared to drop Mark Blake from the best 22 when Brad Ottens returns for the Port Power game at Skilled Stadium in a couple of weeks time.

We won't win a flag with Mark Blake in the side.

FInally, the Cats need to get a proper ruck coach to develop Mumford, West and enhance Brad Otten's ability as a good tap on ruckman.

Personally, the Cats should give Damian Bourke a call from his Queensland hideaway to develop our big men into ruckmen who can set the game up from the centre bounce; bring the mid-fielders into play; make them stand 10 feet talle and be able to offend/defend at stoppages and zones.

 

[bigman12]

Another week in the best for west, 42 hitouts, 18 touches and a goal, what blake and mumford got put together plus a few more hitouts (about 20) and a goal thrown in. I sense a change in the woodworks!

 

[alfy!]

Except West wasn't playing AFL against the best ruckman in a decade.

 

[Hinkley29]

Did Mumford play better than Blake? Yes.

No he didn't

Has Mumford shown more than Blake in every game he's played this year? Yes.

No he hasn't

Should Mumford remain 2nd ruck when Otto comes back? Hell yes.

No he shouldn't

 

[Hinkley29]

Shane Mumford is a better ruckman than Mark Blake.

Blake does his good work at the centre bounces whilst Mumford has the mobility to match it with Dean Cox and co in a couple of years time.

I would be prepared to drop Mark Blake from the best 22 when Brad Ottens returns for the Port Power game at Skilled Stadium in a couple of weeks time.

We won't win a flag with Mark Blake in the side.

FInally, the Cats need to get a proper ruck coach to develop Mumford, West and enhance Brad Otten's ability as a good tap on ruckman.

Personally, the Cats should give Damian Bourke a call from his Queensland hideaway to develop our big men into ruckmen who can set the game up from the centre bounce; bring the mid-fielders into play; make them stand 10 feet talle and be able to offend/defend at stoppages and zones.

Are Damian Bourke's agent? Every time there is a thread about ruckmen, somehow the solution to all of our problems is to hire him as a ruck coach, even though he hasn't been involved in the game for years.

The 80's are over man.

 

[JUBJUB]

I seriously hope Blake is carrying an injury no one knows about because he got thrown around like a rag doll today. Mistimed jumps. Got NOWHERE near the pill at center bounces mostly and got monstered at throw ins. Mummy had some great signs around the ground. Was no worse than Blake in then ruck, and had some nice pick ups at his feet, took a great contested grab in the last quarter. I would be staggered if they drop him once Ottens is fit. He appears to think light years faster than Blake and seems infinitely more comfortable at senior level. PREDICTION...Blake will (a) be playing the back end of this year for our VFL side, and (b) be traded at seasons end (provided he is out of contract) I'd bet the house on those two things happening. He is regressing. Rapidly. I'd ALOMST be tempted to ruck West and Mummy if we were playing next week.

It's confirmed,this muppet does post while drunk or/and stoned.
Mumford was no better than Blake yesterday.

 

[rizzo]

No he didn't



No he hasn't



No he shouldn't

I wouldn't even bother mate. Blake bashers will never listen.

 

[Vegas.]

I wouldn't even bother mate. Blake bashers will never listen.

Mate surely you can see this runs deeper than whether you are a 'Blake basher' or not. Do you seriously think his performance lately, and particularly yesterday is anywhere near what it should be? You can't sit back here and dismiss it all by calling someone a Blake basher when he put in one of the most pathetic efforts I've seen come from this side in the last few years. Forget the stats, forget that it was against Cox - Cox didn't make him stand still (and I mean absolutely, feet rooted to the ground still) on numerous occasions when the ball was in his vicinity and needing to be won. He fair dinkum stood there like he didn't know what sport he was playing. And this is before I mention his ruckwork.

 

[rizzo]

Mate surely you can see this runs deeper than whether you are a 'Blake basher' or not. Do you seriously think his performance lately, and particularly yesterday is anywhere near what it should be? You can't sit back here and dismiss it all by calling someone a Blake basher when he put in one of the most pathetic efforts I've seen come from this side in the last few years. Forget the stats, forget that it was against Cox - Cox didn't make him stand still (and I mean absolutely, feet rooted to the ground still) on numerous occasions when the ball was in his vicinity and needing to be won. He fair dinkum stood there like he didn't know what sport he was playing. And this is before I mention his ruckwork.

I wasn't referring to you. Mumford was crap, Blake was average as well. I'm not a massive Blake man myself, but some of the crap people say on here is a joke. Blake the last 3 weeks has been average at best, but it still doesn't change my mind that he is our number 2 ruck by a fair margin.

I would love to get a QTR by QTR stats break down, but I would imagine the majority of Mummy's touches came in the last quarter.

 

[Vegas.]

Fair enough, but I think it still is an issue that warrants discussion. I agree with you that Blake is still number 2, and I can't see Mumford going past him - but there is no doubt that Mumford is showing a heap more than Blake is at this stage.

When would you want Mummy getting the ball if not the 4th quarter? It was still game on for most of it!

 

[The Governor]

Are Damian Bourke's agent? Every time there is a thread about ruckmen, somehow the solution to all of our problems is to hire him as a ruck coach, even though he hasn't been involved in the game for years.

The 80's are over man.

I am not Damian Bourke's agent.

Back in 2000, Leigh Matthews appointed him as Brisbane's ruck coach. He was the man who developed Clark Keating, Jamie Charman and Beau McDonald into match winning ruckmen during Brisbane's 2001-2003 premiership years. Lethal Leigh held him in high regard.

In 2004, Mark Thompson decided to appoint Ken Hinkley as an assistant coach; Steve Hocking as CHairman of Selectors; Darren Cresswell as an assistant coach; Adrian Fletcher as a forward scout and Damian Bourke as the ruck coach. The Cats made the finals in 2004 and the Lions lost the Grand Final in 2004!!

There is an urgent need at Catland to appoint a ruck coach to teach Mumford and West the art of ruckwork. Heh, the game starts in the middle and a dominant ruckman is the key to the puzzle. The ability to win the ball from the centre is the key. If you have a great midfield or an average mid-field, a dominant ruckman is a huge bonus.

Lets go back to the winning premiership sides of the 21st century and the late 90s:

Brisbane Lions: Damian Bourke developed Jamie Charman, Beau McDonald and Clark Keating into a dominant ruck combination from 2001-2003. They set the game up from the middle to allow Voss and co to run rampant in he mid field.

SYDNEY SWANS: Jason Ball and Darren Jolly.
PORT POWER: Logan and Lade.
CATS: Brad Ottens and Steven King
EAGLES: Dean Cox

Who else would you suggest as a ruck coach down at Geelong?

Simon Madden; Sammy Newman; Paul Salmon?

If you go back down memory lane, the game has not changed at all. Two ruckmen compete for a a centre tap out at the centre bounce. The Hawks were slaughtered in the centre square during the 1987 Grand Final. Yabby Jeans hired Sam Newman to teach Greg Dear, Paul Abbott and Paul Dear the art of ruckwork and they robbed the Cats of a GF win in 1989!!

During Essendon's 1984-85 premiership years, Simon Madden, Paul Salmon and Roger Merrett slaughtered the Hawks in the centre bounces to win the grand finals. Simon Madden won the Norm Smith Medal in 1985!! Sam Newman taught him the art of palming the ball to the on ballers and Simon Madden has passed on that knowledge to Essendon's current ruckmen etc.

If you know your history, you should become more cautious in what you comment on.

 

[rizzo]

Fair enough, but I think it still is an issue that warrants discussion. I agree with you that Blake is still number 2, and I can't see Mumford going past him - but there is no doubt that Mumford is showing a heap more than Blake is at this stage.

When would you want Mummy getting the ball if not the 4th quarter? It was still game on for most of it!

I guess that has a lot to do with expectation. We expect more from Blake then Mummy. It is wrong to make assumptions and map a players career because a lot can change, but I can't see Mumford becoming an "elite" AFL ruckman. Will always be a good honest trier.

True, but it shows he had no impact on the game for three quarters (that's if either of our rucks had any at all).

I think Mummy looked like he needs an few weeks off back in the VFL to freshen up. Bring in west and let him have a 4 week crack.

For the record: West will be better then Mumford and Blake imho

 

[catswhiskers]

Sorry if this goes on a bit.

The glass is half full.
When Ottens returns (fit and well ) It will be pretty close to full. We are arguing about nothing really. In fact having Mumford and West and Blake to argue about is a positive!

The match commitee will sort this out.

Looking at the competition at the sharp end.

StKilda = Gardiner-King - McEvoy
Hawthorn = Taylor- Renouf - ?
Bulldogs = Midson - Hudson
Magpies = Fraser - Brown
Adelaide = Moran - Tippett
Geelong = Ottens - ( Blake or Mumford or West)

I rate Hudson as a ruck man - a hard doer.We need Ottens for this one.
Fraser is effective but mainly as a ruck rover.
Gardiner was a champion priority pick and rightly won AA many years ago. But this is 2009.
Taylor is a workhorse and Renouf looked good but is having a bad patch.
Moran is awful. Brown is awful.
Tippett is looking good at FF and Midson ?.
King is not better than Ottens or Blake or Mumford. And injury is a problem still.

What then - We have the ruck division to get our midfield some of the ball even if injury is a problem. But if Ottens is fit we could even make a case for :
Ottens +West v Collingwood
Ottens + Blake v Crows or
Ottens + Mumford V Saints.
Ottens + ? v Hawks
Ottens + me v Adelaide

While, like you, I will be very nervous in September I suggest until then we smell the roses.

 

[Vegas.]

I think my problem is that I'm stressing out about Ottens not coming back. I haven't ruled out that possibility yet.

 

[Hinkley29]

I am not Damian Bourke's agent.

Back in 2000, Leigh Matthews appointed him as Brisbane's ruck coach. He was the man who developed Clark Keating, Jamie Charman and Beau McDonald into match winning ruckmen during Brisbane's 2001-2003 premiership years. Lethal Leigh held him in high regard.

In 2004, Mark Thompson decided to appoint Ken Hinkley as an assistant coach; Steve Hocking as CHairman of Selectors; Darren Cresswell as an assistant coach; Adrian Fletcher as a forward scout and Damian Bourke as the ruck coach. The Cats made the finals in 2004 and the Lions lost the Grand Final in 2004!!

Our rucks were better in 2002 and 2003 than they were in 2004. Should we blame Bourke for this regression?

There is an urgent need at Catland to appoint a ruck coach to teach Mumford and West the art of ruckwork. Heh, the game starts in the middle and a dominant ruckman is the key to the puzzle. The ability to win the ball from the centre is the key. If you have a great midfield or an average mid-field, a dominant ruckman is a huge bonus.

Lets go back to the winning premiership sides of the 21st century and the late 90s:

Brisbane Lions: Damian Bourke developed Jamie Charman, Beau McDonald and Clark Keating into a dominant ruck combination from 2001-2003. They set the game up from the middle to allow Voss and co to run rampant in he mid field.

Keating, Charman and McDonald weren't a "dominant ruck combination" or "matchwinning". They were a solid outfit who gave their mids a 50% chance of winning the ball.

This "matchwinning" combo were racking up exactly the same stats that Blake is putting up, but apparently Blake is a complete bozo who is going to singlehandedly cost us a flag.

SYDNEY SWANS: Jason Ball and Darren Jolly.
PORT POWER: Logan and Lade.
CATS: Brad Ottens and Steven King
EAGLES: Dean Cox

Who else would you suggest as a ruck coach down at Geelong?

Simon Madden; Sammy Newman; Paul Salmon?

If you go back down memory lane, the game has not changed at all. Two ruckmen compete for a a centre tap out at the centre bounce. The Hawks were slaughtered in the centre square during the 1987 Grand Final. Yabby Jeans hired Sam Newman to teach Greg Dear, Paul Abbott and Paul Dear the art of ruckwork and they robbed the Cats of a GF win in 1989!!

During Essendon's 1984-85 premiership years, Simon Madden, Paul Salmon and Roger Merrett slaughtered the Hawks in the centre bounces to win the grand finals. Simon Madden won the Norm Smith Medal in 1985!! Sam Newman taught him the art of palming the ball to the on ballers and Simon Madden has passed on that knowledge to Essendon's current ruckmen etc.

If you know your history, you should become more cautious in what you comment on.

Oh my god. It must be a very simple world you live in.

 

[scottydeewah]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfmatchreport/fraser-the-rover/2009/06/08/1244313084926.html

I think this article has some good points regarding the current debate on this board regarding who we want as our rucks. Do we want the tap specialist or the rover?

 

[Vegas.]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfmatchreport/fraser-the-rover/2009/06/08/1244313084926.html

I think this article has some good points regarding the current debate on this board regarding who we want as our rucks. Do we want the tap specialist or the rover?

And in Ottens we have both. If he gets back, we are fine.

 

[Cattery]

We won't win a flag with Mark Blake in the side.

So what you're basically saying is that we're stuffed in regards winning the flag this year?
Either that or you believe there's such a huge gap netween Blake and Mumford that playing the former will cost us a premiership whereas we'll win one with Mumford?

I can understand people making an argument for Mumford as second ruck, though personally I don't agree, but to suggest he'll make the difference between winning a flag or not is drawing a pretty long bow don't you think.