Politics The Immigration Debate

[Bradesmaen]

I have no problem with immigration, apart from the numbers. I personally would like to see it decreased until all the governments can stop bickering and sort out infrastructure. It's a shambles. You look at all the big cities in the world that have higher population density than Sydney and they have excellent PT systems, except in Australia we're behind the times and too busy building 8 lane roads to nowhere. Roads that by pass the city are ok, but building more roads into a city is ridiculous as the city only has finite space to fit all the cars.. because one road is backing up, doesn't mean building another road will get people in faster.

 

[Gigantic]

Even if we capped immigration at 0 from tomorrow onward, we're still going to have the same number of people stuck in traffic jams and commuting to work. It's not going to solve the issue we're having. Public transport and social infrastructure development is a shambles, particularly in Sydney.

 

[Ok Boomer]

Yes. But how do you propose to get them out of Melbourne and Sydney? Conditional visas? Conditional citenzenship?

Even those aren't long term unless you want to be draconian.

How do we make other places, especially regional cities more attractive. Jobs and development? Lifestyle, facilities?

 

[smokingjacket]

New research: Australia’s immigration system undercuts workers
Yesterday, a group of labour academics released a book, entitled The Wages Crisis in Australia, which bemoans Australia’s anaemic wages growth and offers policy prescriptions.

Locked away in chapters 13 and 14 are incendiary analyses on the great Australian migrant wage rort, which is unambiguously lowering employment standards and undercutting local workers.

Below are key excepts from Chapter 13 entitled Temporary migrant workers (TMWs), underpayment and predatory business models, written by Iain Campbell:
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/11/australias-immigration-system-undercuts-australian-workers/

Interesting that they've gone in so hard. A lot of economists will touch it but coat the whole thing so much jargon that they can slip away if they get questioned on it.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Interesting that they've gone in so hard. A lot of economists will touch it but coat the whole thing so much jargon that they can slip away if they get questioned on it.

Its worth public discussion, as it has been an increasing problem for quite a while.

Look at our established companies that have been caught out the last few years ripping off workers...and just the ones who have been caught.

Go down a level or two to small businesses and paying overseas students cash is standard and seemingly business are immune from prosecution. When a business owner can pay $12 cash an hour (or less) and have no superannuation, tax, sick leave, holidays, workers comp, penalty rate obligations, its no wonder so many do it.

 

[ShanDog]

Completely ceasing immigration and opening borders without management are two extremes that have no real place in the conversation I think. Both are unrealistic and silly.

As far as numbers go, I don't know, so just defer to what research predicts will produce the best outcomes. What is clear is that the issue isn't limited to just picking a number and then everything will be fine - the government needs to invest money appropriately to handle the population growth and demographic changes, and make policy about how that all works that is well considered and workable.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The problem is a lack of infrastructure and planning

Seeds it is totally unrealistic to think that infrastructure can keep up with 300,000 people year after year coming to Melbourne and Sydney. We only have so much time, space and money to get things done with.

Needs to caped at 100,000.

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

No borders no masters.

 

[Seeds]

Seeds it is totally unrealistic to think that infrastructure can keep up with 300,000 people year after year coming to Melbourne and Sydney. We only have so much time, space and money to get things done with.

Needs to caped at 100,000.

Depends if they are skilled migrants of working age with money who will pay taxes or unskilled migrants and dependents.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Depends if they are skilled migrants of working age with money who will pay taxes or unskilled migrants and dependents.

If you have 150,000 people a year moving too Melbourne that means you need to be building infrastructure that's almost the size of Geelong every year, just not going to happen.

Most people who come in and work are low skilled workers who just lower peoples wages, basic factory workers get in on skilled visas and that includes pick packers and storeman.

 

[Seeds]

If you have 150,000 people a year moving too Melbourne that means you need to be building infrastructure that's almost the size of Geelong every year, just not going to happen.

Most people who come in and work are low skilled workers who just lower peoples wages, basic factory workers get in on skilled visas and that includes pick packers and storeman.

When has melbourne had 150 000? I thought the max was about 125 thousand and some of that was increased births along with interstate migration.

One way to fix the wage problem is to bring in capital owners as immigrants instead of low skilled workers. This lowers the profit rates of businesses, provides money for infrastructure and increases wages all in one go. What do you think?

 

[its free real estate]

No borders no masters.

No borders types are idiots.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

When has melbourne had 150 000? I thought the max was about 125 thousand and some of that was increased births along with interstate migration.

One way to fix the wage problem is to bring in capital owners as immigrants instead of low skilled workers. This lowers the profit rates of businesses, provides money for infrastructure and increases wages all in one go. What do you think?

Brining in people with large amounts of capital would be good but its not a reality. Why would people with large amounts of capital come to Australia when they can make more money elsewhere ?

 

[Seeds]

Brining in people with large amounts of capital would be good but its not a reality. Why would people with large amounts of capital come to Australia when they can make more money elsewhere ?

Why are rich chinese buying up homes here?

 

[medusala]

Thars cool. Was just fact checking.

If you are going to do that you need to split it out via category. You can hardly compared skilled migration to asylum seekers for example.

 

[CheapCharlie]

Why are rich chinese buying up homes here?

Canada shut up shop

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I too have seen this a lot of this forum. Particularly from socialists. However I never see any good reasons for it (it’s obvious to a rational person why it’s bad). It just quickly turns into ‘you’re a racist’ if you suggest cutting immigration. Hence why I worded my OP carefully to voice it’s not immigrants fault, it’s the governments, so what are we all going to do about it?

This is just untrue. I'm one of maybe four or five socialists on this board and I've never seen one of the others advocating for open borders despite HurleyHepsHird making a joke about it.

 

[medusala]

It's not going to solve the issue we're having. Public transport and social infrastructure development is a shambles, particularly in Sydney.

Would stop it getting worse though (or less worse than it would have been with no change) The problem is that infrastructure takes time (see efforts re new Sydney airport) and unless you run a country like Singapore it will nearly always lag behind population growth.

 

[Malifice]

You can hardly compared skilled migration to asylum seekers for example.

You can if you dont view the world through the lens of economics, but instead through one of kindness, charity and humanity.

 

[ClokesShankedIt]

As long as immigration is used to increase our regional centres in combination with locals i have no problem. Our capitals seem to heading towards saturation levels.

No. We've completely ****ed Melbourne and Sydney. It would be the height of stupidity to replicate that experience to regional centres

 

[ClokesShankedIt]

You can if you dont view the world through the lens of economics, but instead through one of kindness, charity and humanity.

Immigration policy doesn't exist to make you feel better about yourself. Can I suggest .. sit ups? learning to cook? a nice walk?

 

[its free real estate]

This is just untrue. I'm one of maybe four or five socialists on this board and I've never seen one of the others advocating for open borders despite HurleyHepsHird making a joke about it.

I don’t think Espe meant this forum. I was talking about elsewhere on the web.

Angela Nagle recently wrote an article on the left case against open borders that was reasonable, but absolutely derided by the left.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I don’t think Espe meant this forum. I was talking about elsewhere on the web.

Angela Nagle recently wrote an article on the left case against open borders that was reasonable, but absolutely derided by the left.

I just finished reading the article. I thought it was really well written and pretty insightful. I was also impressed at how the Marx quote still holds true once you replace Ireland with any poor nation.

What were the criticisms of it? Was it the regular punching left intertwined with faux moralising?

 

[Maggie5]

Oops, seems Trudge misspoke (ABC).

The minister tasked by the Prime Minister to "bust" congestion has massively inflated the number of skilled migrants moving to Melbourne and Sydney.

• Minister for Cities incorrectly claimed 87 per cent of skilled migrants moved to Sydney and Melbourne
• Statistic was used in argument for sending more migrants to regions
• Critics say existing regional migration programs have been neglected

The mistaken "fact", as Cities Minister Alan Tudge described it, has been used as a central justification for a plan to force migrants to the regions.
But the latest Migration Program Report actually shows a decrease in the number of skilled migrants intending to live in New South Wales and Victoria.
The discrepancy is significant according to other available information.
The 2017-18 Migration Program Report released at the end of October showed 57 per cent of migrants intended to live in New South Wales or Victoria.
That's a decrease of two percentage points compared to the previous year.

 

[Mofra]

Even those aren't long term unless you want to be draconian.

How do we make other places, especially regional cities more attractive. Jobs and development? Lifestyle, facilities?

Don't we already have Visa restrictions re: settlement? We only need to make small amendments to existing migration processes rather than make huge sweeping changes.
It's really only two cities that are struggling to cope with the huge influx of people and not all people moving to Melbourne and Sydney are immigrants in any case.

I seem to recall a Tasmanian government initiative a few years ago where Irish nurses gained fast-tracked residency if they spent a certain number of years working in a Tassie hospital.