The Judd Trade - Are Carlton better off?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

You're probably right TODN.

But at the same time you're positioning the debate so that you can't possibly lose.

Sure Judd did heaps and heaps and I agree with what he has brought, but there is a chance that the eagles could be bigger winners. If Kennedy becomes a top 3 CHF and Masten becomes B+ and they contribute to a number of premierships, then I would argue that is worth more than whatever Judd has brought to the club, no matter how valuable it is.

Carlton can't lose here, but that doesn't mean that the Eagles will lose either.

Kennedy and Masten will outlast Judd and keep accumulating points long after this trade has ended for Carlton. The Eagles win will come from here. That won't change Carlton's win though.

At the moment it is nominally a Carlton win. In the fullness of time, it could be a win for both. In a perfect world for the Eagles, Kennedy kicks 800 goals and kicks them to a flag or three. The level of win based on where they would have been based on no trade, is immeasurable.

 

[HBF]

West Coast did as well as they could when Judd requested a trade to Carlton. And Carlton got the man they wanted.

I mark it even.

Both clubs would be pretty happy with the outcome of this trade.

And I truly believe all Carlton supporters are rapt that Kennedy has become the player we all thought he would be..

 

[Messenger]

West Coast did as well as they could when Judd requested a trade to Carlton. And Carlton got the man they wanted.

I agree, especially given Judd picked the destination. My memory is hazy on whether he could have got to them in the PSD that year.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

And I truly believe all Carlton supporters are rapt that Kennedy has become the player we all thought he would be..

Of course. Any regret is that it is not in the navy blue as he was close to his teammates and was a popular player. Happy for him though. Hell, we used to sponsor him.

 

[Bell Ringer]

I agree, especially given Judd picked the destination. My memory is hazy on whether he could have got to them in the PSD that year.

Nah, Richmond were in "the box seat" to get Judd, with pick 1 in the PSD.

Well, at least that senile old **** on SEN thought they were.

 

[Suma Magic]

TODN - agree on nearly everything.

But on your view that Carlton can't lose, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

 

[keepzitreal]

West Coast won for sure.

Losing Judd allowed for them to be crap again get their veterans injuries fixed up allowing them to go on to get Natanui, Gaff and Darling.

Quick bottom out.

 

[nameless]

Also to note that with our infamous fall from grace we were gifted with Darling and Gaff amongst others, we wouldn't have been in that position had we still had Judd i dare say.

But looking exclusively at the trade itself, it's about as fair as you get when you lose the best player in the comp.

I'm more upset at not watching him every week - live every second week - and being able to bask in the glory that was bestowed upon him each week, thinking "yeah that's our boy Juddy".

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

TODN - agree on nearly everything.

But on your view that Carlton can't lose, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Oh I know that it will come up every year and especially when Judd has a bad run or when he retires, or when Kennedy kicks a bag. It's come up numerous times already.

You can disagree but you will never be able to measure the impact or know where we would have been in terms of player retention had Judd not come. You are always only going to compare them based on onfield output, Kennedy's 12 years vs Judd's 8 and throw in whatever Masten evolves into.

How do you measure increased corporate support, memberships, more positive media, greater professionalism, the faster development of teammates, and making Carlton again look like an attractive club to play for? You can't.

Akermanis and Hall both stuck up their middle fingers to us and virtually said 'why on earth would we go there?'

Judd's arrival gave us legitimacy, gave us relevance again. As I said, immeasurable.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Judd is the real winner of this trade - Brownlow medal, environmental ambassador, $$$, Twigley, God-like status at the Blues, escapes criticism, etc.

But seriously, Carlton are slight winners to date. They would be disappointed if they didn't win a premiership with Judd though.

West Coast got the best deal available for a player that was determined to leave, so they can't really complain.

 

[The_Reaper]

Judd is the real winner of this trade - Brownlow medal, environmental ambassador, $$$, Twigley, God-like status at the Blues, escapes criticism, etc.

But seriously, Carlton are slight winners to date. They would be disappointed if they didn't win a premiership with Judd though.

West Coast got the best deal available for a player that was determined to leave, so they can't really complain.

Apart from environmental ambassador and some extra $$$ he had all that that at West Coast anyway.

 

[Jock]

We were broken club with no marketability and battling to sign a sponsor. Juddy signs we sign major sponsors get a heap of free to air games and the whole place turns around. Don't even worry about the draft picks we were virtually down the giggled. He saved the club.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

Apart from environmental ambassador and some extra $$$ he had all that that at West Coast anyway.

Probably fair, but Judd claiming a second Brownlow means we were able to experience this:

 

[September_Glory]

Look at where Carlton were before Judd and after he arrived.

The answer is clear.

Maybe Carlton were on the improve and would've made it back to contention without Judd anyway but that's taking credit away from Judd and the current group.

 

[WaltzingMatera]

In hindsight it would have been a much better outcome for Carlton to keep Kennedy but release pick 1 (Kruezer) but at that time, Carlton was just desperate for a ruckman.

And strangely enough, WC ends up with Naitanui a year later who was Carlton preferred ruckman over Kruezer if Naitanui fell into the same drafting age bracket.

It is interesting that Carlton supporters say that Judd's biggest impact was to add professionalism & help their young midfielders & get the sponsors in and that puts a smile on Carlton fans' faces with this trade, but WC also sit in a position whereby they had Judd at his best and now Kennedy at his best and that puts a smile on WC fans' faces.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

In hindsight it would have been a much better outcome for Carlton to keep Kennedy but release pick 1 (Kruezer) but at that time, Carlton was just desperate for a ruckman.

And strangely enough, WC ends up with Naitanui a year later who was Carlton preferred ruckman over Kruezer if Naitanui fell into the same drafting age bracket.

It is interesting that Carlton supporters say that Judd's biggest impact was to add professionalism & help their young midfielders & get the sponsors in and that puts a smile on Carlton fans' faces with this trade, but WC also sit in a position whereby they had Judd at his best and now Kennedy at his best and that puts a smile on WC fans' faces.

yep- win/win. I think a number of West Coast supporters and Carlton haters from other clubs have been looking at this trade and praying for some sort of 'divine justice' to occur, after Judd chose to return home. Just to re-iterate for the 50,000th time- Judd has delivered in spades, and we would be a LESSER side with JK, Palmer and whatever #20 eventuated.

 

[redglare]

Its not even close - Carlton are better off as a result. Certainly West Coast rebounded last year, with help from Kennedy. But don't forget that West Coast were serious premierhip contenders in 2007, and when Judd left, they fell off a cliff into three of the worst seasons in the clubs history (of course there were other factors that contributed).

That 3 years, and the draft picks that were accumulated PLUS what was obtained for Judd are what helped West Coast rebound.

But you will never convince me that because West Coast are going okay now, they are better off than Carlton and/or got the best out of the Judd trade.

 

[Jay-Z]

Its not even close - Carlton are better off as a result. Certainly West Coast rebounded last year, with help from Kennedy. But don't forget that West Coast were serious premierhip contenders in 2007, and when Judd left, they fell off a cliff into three of the worst seasons in the clubs history (of course there were other factors that contributed).

That 3 years, and the draft picks that were accumulated PLUS what was obtained for Judd are what helped West Coast rebound.

But you will never convince me that because West Coast are going okay now, they are better off than Carlton and/or got the best out of the Judd trade.

I'm not asking who "won" this trade. I'm simply asking whether Carlton would be closer to a flag right now if they didn't make it. Ignore the effect it had on West Coast, I don't think anyone is suggesting they have been better off in the last 4 years without him. However, I see this a bit like North trading Wayne Schwass for Shannon Grant at the end of 1997. Was Schwass a much better player than Grant at the time, absolutely. But Schwass retired in 2002 and Grant went on to play another 6 years. To me, North was the clear winner of this trade when it was all said and done. As others have said, unless Judd can take them to a flag in the next 1-2 years before he drops off, I can't see how Carlton are better off for having done this trade especially as they are crying out for a Kennedy type right now.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm not asking who "won" this trade. I'm simply asking whether Carlton would be closer to a flag right now if they didn't make it.

Not a chance. Kennedy was slow out of the blocks, Fev dominated our side. Murphy was forced to be our leading midfielder in his second year when Stevens was injured. The development of some of our young players seemed stifled. Many have expressed how awful those days were. I feel sure we would have lost one or two decent players had it not been for the injection of hope when Judd came.

As others have said, unless Judd can take them to a flag in the next 1-2 years before he drops off, I can't see how Carlton are better off for having done this trade especially as they are crying out for a Kennedy type right now.

We have also been crying out for inside midfielders.

We cycled through players like Bentick, Hadley, McLean, Curnow, Ellard pre and post Judd coming in an effort to free Judd up and extend his career. Purely on a positional basis, Judd's importance has been greater than Kennedy's would have been to this point, purely because we needed to get the ball out. While not saying we wouldn't want a contested marking forward up there, our side is structured around quick ball movement and taking advantage of our speed at ground level with Garlett and Betts up forward. We just need somebody to contest and bring the ball to ground the majority of the time.

Remember to have Kennedy, we have to subtract the influence of Judd, and not just now, not just in the future but over the past four years when we were crying out for leadership and needed to speed up development of our side and make the place a more attractive place to be around in order to keep those players.

Saying we could use Kennedy is a no brainer .... it is also an extremely simplistic argument.

Hell, you would think if Carlton supporters can get over that trade, can recognise what we lost and what we gained and what we needed at the time, and recognise that Kennedy will be around a lot longer than Judd so we have to wait out the effects of that trade .... and we are happy to do so, you have to wonder why others are dwelling on it. Judd does not need to win a flag at Carlton to have been a good trade for us. He has already helped others grow around him and that is worth its weight in gold.

 

[4thchicken]

In hindsight it would have been a much better outcome for Carlton to keep Kennedy but release pick 1 (Kruezer) but at that time, Carlton was just desperate for a ruckman.

And strangely enough, WC ends up with Naitanui a year later who was Carlton preferred ruckman over Kruezer if Naitanui fell into the same drafting age bracket.

It is interesting that Carlton supporters say that Judd's biggest impact was to add professionalism & help their young midfielders & get the sponsors in and that puts a smile on Carlton fans' faces with this trade, but WC also sit in a position whereby they had Judd at his best and now Kennedy at his best and that puts a smile on WC fans' faces.

At the time I felt 3+4(kennedy)+20 was too much to pay.

As a club though, we had to do the trade - no questions. Our willingness to be upfront with what we were willing to part was what got us over the line against the pies (who stated something along the lines of - don't worry about that - leave it to us to work out)

What we don't know is whether WC would have accepted pick 1 for Judd? - or would they have wanted pick 1 + extras? (i.e. I'd have been happy to offer pick 1 + fev but not a pick 1 + kennedy/picks deal)

Its impossible to talk hypotheticals though -
what if we had kreuzer and he didn't do a knee? (i.e. what level would he be playing at atm?) - perhaps had we traded pick 1 (and kept everything else) then we'd still have jacobs on our list (I wish we could have kept him). Assuming the trades were different (i.e. we kept kennedy), would we still have finished where we did a couple of years ago and picked up yarran? etc etc etc

 

[GO EAGLES]

Carlton have been unlucky.
Losing Fevola and Kruezer (injury) stopped their chance to have a real go for the flag in the last 2 years.

If they had both for the whole period of 2 years they might have won the premiership.
Getting Judd would have been a huge win if that did happen

 

[tek87]

eagles did well with to get that deal. pity, only kennedy has been worthwhile with the other 2 duds. that being said, neither team has won many finals in that time, possibly one each. so even, but i think carlton are closer

 

[drummond2fevola]

Carlton would still have Fevola if Judd hadn't arrived, thus they would have had someone to kick it too.

 

[mehow2g]

If Carlton got WCE Chris Judd form they would have a flag, looking back Judd was traded when he was 23-24? Premiership player caption brownlow absolute complete player you'd think his best was yet to come call me 1 eye'd but he never got better he got worse ever since that groin injury, but at the time far out Carlton would of been stoked and I bet in some ways they still are.

Or they could of kept going they would of drafted higher draft picks and probably draft smarter as you can cover DEF MID FWD RUCK in 1 draft.

If we kept Judd he would force us to stay up abit more and we wouldn't have the players we have at the club today and I think we wouldnt ever rebounded aswell as we have we would just stick around the 12-8 area for a long time.

So Carlton wins the trade but probably doesnt win in long run.

 

[jko'neal]

]If Carlton got WCE Chris Judd form they would have a flag[/B], looking back Judd was traded when he was 23-24? Premiership player caption brownlow absolute complete player you'd think his best was yet to come call me 1 eye'd but he never got better he got worse ever since that groin injury, but at the time far out Carlton would of been stoked and I bet in some ways they still are.

Or they could of kept going they would of drafted higher draft picks and probably draft smarter as you can cover DEF MID FWD RUCK in 1 draft.

If we kept Judd he would force us to stay up abit more and we wouldn't have the players we have at the club today and I think we wouldnt ever rebounded aswell as we have we would just stick around the 12-8 area for a long time.

So Carlton wins the trade but probably doesnt win in long run.

I don't care what Chris Judd they got, they were never going to win a flag in the last 3 or 4 years. Suspect backline at times and rely on small guys to kick all their goals, having said that. Carlton are still a team that is growing and could very well win a flag whilst Juddy is still there.