Opinion The Rebuild Thread

[ESKIE]

We can do it

 

[etsal1]

OK not so much Sanderson. Then again he came from that factory of terrific assistants down Geelong way.

As an aside, went for a waltz down North Terrace post game, some very unhappy people getting into their Pajeros for the long drive to Burnside.

Adelaide supporters were leaving the game when they still had a chance to win. Funny stuff. I've sat through every minute of crap we've served up this year when games were long lost.

 

[MightyPies1]

MM...he has job on his hands, reckon he can do it?

This was an interesting question. MM did a splendid job of rebuilding Collingwood but he was 46 then. He was the right man for the time. In his third year he took us from a spoon to a grand final, It was a herculean effort.

Can he do the same at the Blues? I am agreeing with Robert Walls. MM is now 60 and it smells of Denis Pagan all over again, and more heart-break for a once great club.

Cannot believe how long you guys have been mediocre for. Personally, it's no secret being a Collingwood supporter that I don't want to see Carlton do well, and you can respect that, cause the feeling is mutual no doubt, that's why our rivalry is great, but in another sense, Carlton have been down for so long, and they are obviously entering another rebuild phase, that it really is sad for the game and sad for this rivalry whilst Collingwood have been up for so long, playing finals and grand finals for over a decade.

In fact, if you factor in Collingwood's bad run in the nineties, when was the last time both sides were up? Was way back in the early eighties and I wasn't even around then.

It could turn quick, look at PA, no-one could have predicted their rise, so who-knows, but it must be depressing supporting the Blues right now.

 

[Dramoth]

This was an interesting question. MM did a splendid job of rebuilding Collingwood but he was 46 then. He was the right man for the time. In his third year he took us from a spoon to a grand final, It was a herculean effort.

Can he do the same at the Blues? I am agreeing with Robert Walls. MM is now 60 and it smells of Denis Pagan all over again, and more heart-break for a once great club.

Cannot believe how long you guys have been mediocre for. Personally, it's no secret being a Collingwood supporter that I don't want to see Carlton do well, and you can resect that, cause the feeling is mutual no doubt, that's why our rivalry is great, but in another sense, Carlton have been down for so long, and they are obviously entering another rebuild phase, that it really is sad for the game and sad for this rivalry whilst Collingwood have been up for so long, playing finals and grand finals for over a decade.

In fact, if you factor in Collingwood's bad run in the nineties, when was the last time both sides were up? Was way back in the early eighties and I wasn't even around then.

It could turn quick, look at PA, no-one could have predicted their rise, so who-knows, but it must be depressing supporting the Blues right now.

The problem is that we have a bunch of senior players who are complacent with their lot. They know (or at least assume) that they cant be dropped if they put in a poor performance and this attitude affects the other players as well. Why should they try hard to win a spot in the side when they know that the incumbent is living on past glories and wont be dropped if he has a form drop.

And those senior players seem to have the protection of the board because they can be shite for weeks on end, and they still get games.

It's affecting the development of our junior players.

 

[etsal1]

Another ageist perspective.


I just find it soooo stupid when people try & say his age is a determining factor. How old was Sir Alex when he left United?

 

[Kensa Carter]

Another ageist perspective.


I just find it soooo stupid when people try & say his age is a determining factor. How old was Sir Alex when he left United?

Pete Carroll thread.

 

[Maggie5]

Another ageist perspective

I just find it soooo stupid when people try & say his age is a determining factor. How old was Sir Alex when he left United?

Not sure you can compare AFL with soccer.

In the AFL with the salary cap, you need to develop players, trade and select the best available players in the draft. In soccer you just use a cheque book. So you already start with the very best players.

 

[mediumsizered]

Not sure you can compare AFL with soccer.

In the AFL with the salary cap, you need to develop players, trade and select the best available players in the draft. In soccer you just use a cheque book. So you already start with the very best players.

At 57 Malthouse coached a premiership & at 58 coached a team to a 20-2 home & away season, yet he is washed up at 60.

 

[King of Ruin]

You didn't know 60 is the end road?

 

[blaze036]

Trade Garlett to Collingwood for a 2nd rounder + steak knives

We haven't had a good crumber in years

 

[CrippsonBlue]

The problem is that we have a bunch of senior players who are complacent with their lot. They know (or at least assume) that they cant be dropped if they put in a poor performance and this attitude affects the other players as well. Why should they try hard to win a spot in the side when they know that the incumbent is living on past glories and wont be dropped if he has a form drop.

And those senior players seem to have the protection of the board because they can be shite for weeks on end, and they still get games.

The truth is this is fast becoming an old adage. I can't identify many in that team that hasn't come under scrutiny - Garlett, McLean, Warnock, Robinson, Gibbs, Murph all certainly have, most have been dropped at some point (including Waite, Scotland etc.). Simpson, Jamison, Walker are probably the only senior players that you may say are somewhat immune to being dropped or receiving criticism on here, but for the most past they haven't earned it.

The issue with this collective group is they all have talent, but there will always be a portion of them putting in no effort every few games. Because of their obvious talent we never move any of them on, but we can no longer carry an inconsistent core group (and that's half our team). Yes Waite and Scotland are on the way out, but we will have to also bite the bullet with some of the others mentioned above.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

Trade Garlett to Collingwood for a 2nd rounder + steak knives

We haven't had a good crumber in years

We had a very good one until Adelaide came along and stole him from us.

 

[Dramoth]

Trade Garlett to Collingwood for a 2nd rounder + steak knives

We haven't had a good crumber in years

I think that Pendles and Swan would be good steak knives... or maybe Elliot and Pendles

 

[Dramoth]

You didn't know 60 is the end road?

Not according to Firesale Joe... 70 is going to be the new 65...

 

[Dramoth]

Not sure you can compare AFL with soccer.

In the AFL with the salary cap, you need to develop players, trade and select the best available players in the draft. In soccer you just use a cheque book. So you already start with the very best players.

Are you sure that we are still talking about soccer there and not Carlton pre AFL-draft?

 

[blaze036]

I think that Pendles and Swan would be good steak knives... or maybe Elliot and Pendles

Wouldn't you rather Tony Armstrong?

 

[etsal1]

We had a very good one until Adelaide came along and stole him from us.

They seem to have turned him into a spud though. No offence, but other than the showdown he's been more of a let down than Daisy.

 

[Dramoth]

The truth is this is fast becoming an old adage. I can't identify many in that team that hasn't come under scrutiny - Garlett, McLean, Warnock, Robinson, Gibbs, Murph all certainly have, most have been dropped at some point (including Waite, Scotland etc.). Simpson, Jamison, Walker are probably the only senior players that you may say are somewhat immune to being dropped or receiving criticism on here, but for the most past they haven't earned it.

The issue with this collective group is they all have talent, but there will always be a portion of them putting in no effort every few games. Because of their obvious talent we never move any of them on, but we can no longer carry an inconsistent core group (and that's half our team). Yes Waite and Scotland are on the way out, but we will have to also bite the bullet with some of the others mentioned above.

We need to get the boardroom away from the selection table and tell them to leave football matters up to the football department.

If we can get that happening, then we should be one step closer to being able to drop players when their form demands it.

Having a look at the Bullants best possession getters today. Graham had 31 and Cachia had 26, with Cripps having 21. If we are rebuilding the club... start playing these guys. They are the future.

 

[Dramoth]

Wouldn't you rather Tony Armstrong?

Umm... nah... I'll go with the losers that I selected

 

[etsal1]

Not sure you can compare AFL with soccer.

In the AFL with the salary cap, you need to develop players, trade and select the best available players in the draft. In soccer you just use a cheque book. So you already start with the very best players.

Read the post I was replying to & try again.

 

[Dramoth]

Read the post I was replying to & try again.

I slipped in between you post and the post bagging out Mick for being 60...

And Sir Bobby Robson was 72 when he had to quit managing Newcastle because he was dying of lung cancer...

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

I think one of the problems we have at our club is the recent ego culture. And part of that would be, I think, the fact we have players on 700k+ who do very little, and players who bust their gut on probably a third of that.

When we have someone like Gibbs who will probably ask for a lot but he doesn't put out the effort consistently, it just doesn't seem right.

How can you rebuild when people are obviously going to be treated so unequally? It's favouritism because of a name, not credit where credit is due.

I was watching Hawthorn yesterday. They were amazing. Team MATES. Our team don't seem to be genuine mates on the field and that is a huge problem.

 

[blue healer]

I think one of the problems we have at our club is the recent ego culture. And part of that would be, I think, the fact we have players on 700k+ who do very little, and players who bust their gut on probably a third of that.

When we have someone like Gibbs who will probably ask for a lot but he doesn't put out the effort consistently, it just doesn't seem right.

How can you rebuild when people are obviously going to be treated so unequally? It's favouritism because of a name, not credit where credit is due.

I was watching Hawthorn yesterday. They were amazing. Team MATES. Our team don't seem to be genuine mates on the field and that is a huge problem.

I hope you're not suggesting that all players should be paid the same money because when that happens it's not the best that lift the others, it's the other way round. The best drop to the workrate of the others because there's no point.

Even the lowest paid AFL players get more than 90% of Australian workers and there reward for return is far, far greater than most of society.

I don't give a flying **** if they're friends or not. you don't have to be mates to play a team game, you just have to adhere to team plans, structures and mores.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

I hope you're not suggesting that all players should be paid the same money because when that happens it's not the best that lift the others, it's the other way round. The best drop to the workrate of the others because there's no point.

Even the lowest paid AFL players get more than 90% of Australian workers and there reward for return is far, far greater than most of society.

I don't give a flying **** if they're friends or not. you don't have to be mates to play a team game, you just have to adhere to team plans, structures and mores.

You clearly misunderstood.

No they should not be paid the same. But they should be paid what they are deserving of, not because of what they did years ago or who they might become. Credit where credit is due. Then we might see some put in a bigger and better work rate.


It's quite a naive reply to suggest I was hinting they should all be friends. No one said that.

I meant that there seems to be very little mateship. Very little support, talk, high fives etc.... That's called a united team where they play for the team and realise a team wins not an individual.

We have too many individuals and there is no united team. Friends or not, I don't care, but there needs to be a team

 

[blue healer]

It's a great question. Like 'game plans' and 'structures' we keep hearing this rather esoteric word 'development'.

I'm genuine when asking the question - what is 'development' and how is it done.


In our case, does it just mean :

- throwing all the young guys in for the next 15 games and getting experience into them

- playing the kids for 2-3 games them resting them back in the VFL.

- bringing kids in to a play a specific role eg: do you let a Holman come in and play a run-with role for 6 weeks on the good players.

Hawthorn have played a number of debutants this year but expect it's easier to do this when you have a winning team. You can nurse a kid through a game.

Does having kids getting flogged every week 'develop' them or bruise them ?

Interested in peoples thoughts.

Good post.

I don't know the answer to this problem but you're second and third scenarios appeal to me and, I think the first will just stuff them (but I think you're hinting at that possibility).

Criticising development of players is, IMO, an excuse for sub-standard drafting and list management. Happy to leave development to the coaching staff.