The Team v North

[ant555]

Not saying I think Quinn should or should not play this week, but from a strategic theoretical point of view I'm with you Kelvin on this one. You pick your best team to win each week, let those who aren't quite up to it develop at the next level down, and nature over nurture will take care of it for you. Doesn't matter if it's round 4 or an elimination final - you pick your best team to win on the day. Again, not specifically talking about Quinn (which is how your argument with ant started).

Yes but you can not simply pick the best 22 players on your list.
Give me an argument as to who you would play at attacking half back instead of Quinn.

Thats is why i said look at the big picture. You often have to pick the players who will cary out the game plan in front of someone who may be better but does not fill that role.

 

[BringBackCransberg]

[...]You just can't say you want to win every week and then experiment sometimes. [...]

I'm not convinced that this is right. Experimentation means that you don't know what the outcome of the experiment will be. Otherwise why experiment? So the choice isn't necessarily between experimenting and doing our best -- the experiment might come off magnificently, in an unexpected way. It's highly-charged risk taking, and the sort of thing we need to do, in my opinion, to fit into the 8 (the teams that finish 9, 10 and maybe 11 this year will be very good teams). Not only that, but there's obvious long term benefits.

You do say that you think there are better options for this week, I'm assuming options that are less risky. But I reckon that kind of approach at the selection table is less likely, after 22 rounds, to sneak us into the 8.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Well that isnt Knights way of coaching, i mean last week, he played Daniher on Fevola, who absolutely owned him, but thats not the point, throughout the game, he improved against him

its all about teaching the youngsters, and Quinn needs to learn the most.

Bullshit.

Why play Lloyd and Lucas when we can play Still and Williams?

The reason Quinn is getting a game is to reward his endeavour, and to set an example to Houli and Jetta in particular.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

As usual you are proving how limited your scope of knowledge on footy is.
The fact that you actually find looking at the big picture issue is amusing shows how far away from having any coaching knowledge you are.
If Quinn fits the run and carry game plan then how is it an experiment ?
The fact of the matter is those sides who do role the dice a fraction in the early rounds and pick guys who suite the style you wan't to play.
You can actually win every week by doing this.
Different story if Quinn was competing against Welsh or similar for the running half back spot.

Picking Quinn this early is not going to be the sole reason we loose if in fact we do loose. The fact of the matter is most people focused on the two or three errors but somehow completly missed the scoring opertunities he set up (that out did the two goals he gave away).

The reason you do not under stand think outside the square is you do not have the capacity to do it

It's a bad experiment because we have a back line that is so young that one more guy with pretty much 6 months of football might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Lack of experience in the back half could be the reason we lose.

We are playing Russian Roulette and I don't like it.

As for big picture and outside the square, well, whenever someone says that in a meeting at work or life in general I immediately put a cross through them as having no idea. So far it's tracking at %100 but seeing %90 of the people I deal with are incompetent the stat might be slightly misleading.

 

[james_omahoney]

Yes but you can not simply pick the best 22 players on your list.
Give me an argument as to who you would play at attacking half back instead of Quinn.

Thats is why i said look at the big picture. You often have to pick the players who will cary out the game plan in front of someone who may be better but does not fill that role.

Yes you can. Quinn is in our best 22 this week, so I'm not disagreeing with you on the actual selection. I disagree with Kelvin on the selection of Quinn but agree with him on selection theory. Quinn fits the game plan in that role and is the best option this week, hence he is in our best 22 based on the current circumstances.

What I interpreted that you meant was that it's OK to pick players based on the short term loss/long term gain theory. Hyperthetically, if there was a player who would fit the role this week better than Quinn based on form, but whom had already reached their potential, I would choose them over Quinn, despite Quinn having better potential, because I don't think Quinn's development will be hampered by playing seconds in that situation.

 

[james_omahoney]

Well that isnt Knights way of coaching, i mean last week, he played Daniher on Fevola, who absolutely owned him, but thats not the point, throughout the game, he improved against him

its all about teaching the youngsters, and Quinn needs to learn the most.

Are you saying there was a better option for a Fevola opponent? In the last few years we've had nobody up to the task. Yes it was a development opportunity for Daniher, but that was a bonus. I can guarantee you that if we had another player who could shut Fevola out then he would have played that role.

 

[AndyLesPaul]

Are you saying there was a better option for a Fevola opponent? In the last few years we've had nobody up to the task. Yes it was a development opportunity for Daniher, but that was a bonus. I can guarantee you that if we had another player who could shut Fevola out then he would have played that role.

Well no player could have stopped his inaccuracy, but i'd say Fletcher would've held his own against him

 

[AndyLesPaul]

Bullshit.

Why play Lloyd and Lucas when we can play Still and Williams?

The reason Quinn is getting a game is to reward his endeavour, and to set an example to Houli and Jetta in particular.

Well he's the most inexperienced player at the club you'd have to say, what better way to enhance his skills than give him a game? I mean, i dont think he's a better player than Houli as of yet, he's still learning the game.

And i'd agree to a point that him being rewarded for his endeavour is a part of it, but not the all of it

 

[Rack Watts]

I like the Quinn move, I like the Psychology our coaching staff use.
Jetta and Houli are being lazy in second efforts and certain aspects of the game, what our coaching staff are doing is rewarding hard work, it's a great thing imo.

 

[yaco55]

I like the Quinn move, I like the Psychology our coaching staff use.
Jetta and Houli are being lazy in second efforts and certain aspects of the game, what our coaching staff are doing is rewarding hard work, it's a great thing imo.

You are spot on !

Quinn was in the best players in the last 3 Bendigo games, before his senior debut.

Do the coaching staff have to say it out ALOUD - EFC want hard working and accountable footballers.

The selection process this year has followed three main principles

- follow the team rules eg; defensive actions
- have some form
- fit into the game plan

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Any more news on Dempsey?

 

[GoldenboyHird_5]

NLM did not play for Bendigo.

Where there's smoke there's fire.

LAte change
IN: NLM
OUT: Dempsey

Watching him play this year, this'll be a big loss tomorrow in more ways than one.

 

[rainman06]

It's a bad experiment because we have a back line that is so young that one more guy with pretty much 6 months of football might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Lack of experience in the back half could be the reason we lose.

We are playing Russian Roulette and I don't like it.

As for big picture and outside the square, well, whenever someone says that in a meeting at work or life in general I immediately put a cross through them as having no idea. So far it's tracking at %100 but seeing %90 of the people I deal with are incompetent the stat might be slightly misleading.

Seeing as you havent nominated who you would pick in front of him, i will pick Lovett-Murray as the bloke he is probably being chosen ahead of.

Dont you think its just as likely we might lose by 6 goals with Quinn in (And trying to blood a young untapped player) as it is with Lovett Murray in (A bloke who has been given opportunity after opportunity and is going round in circles)?

So if we go down, (which of course, we might not) why not go down trying something?

 

[AndyLesPaul]

NLM did not play for Bendigo.

Where there's smoke there's fire.

LAte change
IN: NLM
OUT: Dempsey

Watching him play this year, this'll be a big loss tomorrow in more ways than one.

Do you know for sure?

 

[GoldenboyHird_5]

watch the big screeen at Etihad tomorrow

 

[danzan22]

Dempsey misses a training session so now he's injured, couldn't be that the coaches were giving him a rest like a lot of players have from training over the course of the season to not over do it.

 

[GoldenboyHird_5]

no, dempsey misses training, a session where only 22 players train for the whole session, NLM is an emergency, he trains as one of the 22, he is withdrawn from the bendigo team.

Need i go any further?

 

[AndyLesPaul]

no, dempsey misses training, a session where only 22 players train for the whole session, NLM is an emergency, he trains as one of the 22, he is withdrawn from the bendigo team.

Need i go any further?

Well hopefully it's just that he's sick or something.
I dont want any long term injuries.

 

[ant555]

Yes you can. Quinn is in our best 22 this week, so I'm not disagreeing with you on the actual selection. I disagree with Kelvin on the selection of Quinn but agree with him on selection theory. Quinn fits the game plan in that role and is the best option this week, hence he is in our best 22 based on the current circumstances.

What I interpreted that you meant was that it's OK to pick players based on the short term loss/long term gain theory. Hyperthetically, if there was a player who would fit the role this week better than Quinn based on form, but whom had already reached their potential, I would choose them over Quinn, despite Quinn having better potential, because I don't think Quinn's development will be hampered by playing seconds in that situation.

???
You are talking about something different. Of course your can pick your best 22 in any given week becasue sometimes your best 22 will contain a player set for a certain match up.

My comment was you simply can not pick the best 22 players ability wise every week.
Thats why i said

you can not simply pick the best 22 players on your list

Its ok to say if there was a player that suited the role better than Quinn you would pick him in front of Quinn but that is based on there being such a player. I would certainly pick Welsh to play the same role in front of Quinn if he was available for example.
Don't give me a theory. Give me the names.

In Quinns case i think his development rests on playing some senior footy as well. He needs a few games in high pressure situations that the VFL won't give him.
At the end of the day he had form in the VFL practice matches and he was doing the things the coaches wanted so he was picked on form.

 

[ant555]

It's a bad experiment because we have a back line that is so young that one more guy with pretty much 6 months of football might be the straw that breaks the camels back. Lack of experience in the back half could be the reason we lose.

We are playing Russian Roulette and I don't like it.

Stop giving me theories and give me a practicle idea. Who plays running half back in front of Quinn if there is someone else better ?

I will tell you now it is not Houli or Jetta.
It also is not McPhee.
If we have Welsh available he could fill the role.
If we got Hurley back the i think Daniher has the potential to fill the role.
Maybe McVeigh could do it once he gets a couple of games under his belt.

As for big picture and outside the square, well, whenever someone says that in a meeting at work or life in general I immediately put a cross through them as having no idea. So far it's tracking at %100 but seeing %90 of the people I deal with are incompetent the stat might be slightly misleading.

Well Kelvin you may put a cross through everyone who uses the expression but if you where in a management position in my company you would not get far.
Thinking outside the square does not simply mean you have to acept every crack pot idea that the majority of people come up with.
It is a guide to get people to find solutions outside the parameters of normaility.
In my line of work i ask the staf to find the solutions in every day problems by thinking outside the square. The square being the basic every day no frills garde 3 level plan and outside the square meaning maybe thinking at a grade 6 level to find a solution if something in the basic plan is not as it should be.

If you dont do it then life is simply a recipe book. You keep following the same line all the time.
For a basic example i dont want staff coming to me and saying i can not make X product because one of the ingredients is in the dry store.
Think outside the square and use some intuition and go and get what you need.
It is basicly practicle problem solving where you step outside the bounds of basic normality and not as you seem to think .
It is not about accepting every stupid idea that is flaoting around out there.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Well hopefully it's just that he's sick or something.
I dont want any long term injuries.

Apparently Dempsey was a bit off colour yesterday and will play today (source: The Age).

 

[james_omahoney]

???
You are talking about something different. Of course your can pick your best 22 in any given week becasue sometimes your best 22 will contain a player set for a certain match up.

My comment was you simply can not pick the best 22 players ability wise every week.
Thats why i said
Its ok to say if there was a player that suited the role better than Quinn you would pick him in front of Quinn but that is based on there being such a player. I would certainly pick Welsh to play the same role in front of Quinn if he was available for example.
Don't give me a theory. Give me the names.

In Quinns case i think his development rests on playing some senior footy as well. He needs a few games in high pressure situations that the VFL won't give him.
At the end of the day he had form in the VFL practice matches and he was doing the things the coaches wanted so he was picked on form.

OK maybe I've misunderstood what you were saying. Just curious as to why you said you wouldn't pick Quinn in a final but would pick him this week. That made me think that you thought he's not in our best 22 this week. I thought you were saying he should be in for development alone. Let's say it's a final and all things are the same including availabilities. Who would you pick instead?

 

[james_omahoney]

Well no player could have stopped his inaccuracy, but i'd say Fletcher would've held his own against him

Historically Fevola has pantsed Fletcher.

 

[bombers2011]

Apparently Dempsey was a bit off colour yesterday and will play today (source: The Age).

OH THANK GOD for that, i have been worrying all morning that NLM would be playing!

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Stop giving me theories and give me a practicle idea. Who plays running half back in front of Quinn if there is someone else better ?

I will tell you now it is not Houli or Jetta.
It also is not McPhee.
If we have Welsh available he could fill the role.
If we got Hurley back the i think Daniher has the potential to fill the role.
Maybe McVeigh could do it once he gets a couple of games under his belt.

Fletch, NLM, Nash(though I hate to say it), Demspey, Winderlich, Stanton can all run and carry off half back. Houli has already played that role and has had a number of good games through there. Why do we give up on him so quickly yet we cut Quinn a lot more slack?

You don't need a 1001 half back flankers when you can rotate a few mids in there.

Welsh for me can't play that role. His disposal and pace is a worry and it's one of the reasons why he was a little maligned a few years ago by some, myself included. For me he resurrected his career going mid/tag/forward.