Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Mattdougie]

LOL

Okay buddy
If you say so

Oh David do u know anything about our football department??

We run on the tightest budget in the AFL so hiring a Mathew knights would cost us around 400k a year and where would that come from??

Stop attempting to disagree with me and be honest about our club.

Hiring a coach of that standard would mean sacking someone and 99% of people here would even have to agree with that

 

[Mattdougie]

Think it could happen. Depends whether Thompson's in it for the money or not, but one way or another I don't think he'll remain at Essendon, and he may find it appealing to work with former Geelong colleagues he holds in high regard and enhance his own reputation being involved in a rebuild of another club.

Nonsense. I'm very happy with the man we've got in charge and the direction he's got us heading in, I'm not necessarily as happy (note - not unhappy, as such) with the panel as a whole and their individual roles in charge of different parts of the ground, although they're doing well considering the limited experience. Senior Coach =/= Entire Coaching Panel. Therefore, we could benefit from adding someone such as Knights to the panel as I've detailed above.

Ok fair enough but who goes and do you think knights would leave Geelong to join us???

 

[Dav1d]

Oh David do u know anything about our football department??

We run on the tightest budget in the AFL so hiring a Mathew knights would cost us around 400k a year and where would that come from??

Stop attempting to disagree with me and be honest about our club.

Hiring a coach of that standard would mean sacking someone and 99% of people here would even have to agree with that

Okay, so how do we suggest we hire another senior coach when we'd need to pay Macca the remainder of his contract and who you suggested with the exception of Bolton would demand a higher salary then what Macca is currently on? Macca essentially works for peanuts compared to some of these other coaches

and in regards to know anything about our football department, all I ask is; do you?

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Ok fair enough but who goes and do you think knights would leave Geelong to join us???

Who goes? Probably King, or Rohan Smith (wouldn't go down well). I like Shannon Grant and Montgomery at this stage.

I'm not sure. Depends whether he'd like to continue with his own VFL side at Geelong or have a say in how an AFL team operates. I imagine the pay wouldn't be all that different, just depends how he'd like to continue his career and consider his options for promotion.

 

[Mattdougie]

Okay, so how do we suggest we hire another senior coach when we'd need to pay Macca the remainder of his contract and who you suggested with the exception of Bolton would demand a higher salary then what Macca is currently on? Macca essentially works for peanuts compared to some of these other coaches

and in regards to know anything about our football department, all I ask is; do you?

That's easy move Macca to VFL coach and hire a new senior coach

Therefore no payout required.

Move assistants out who arnt under contract and hire new guys to suit.

Macca then is in a role he should be fantastic at in developing our kids

 

[BRG93]

Just a list off the top of my head being honest and I haven't say down and really thought about it but I'd accept a pig in a skirt over Macca so it's truly not a fair question for me to answer

And yes I'm happy to go with another unproven coz I simply have zero faith in Macca and his plan

This isn't a Crack so relax, In what aspect of what Macca is doing at the moment is he failing?
I'm not one who has Zero Faith I'm not sure why you think he is that bad but that is your opinion and I'm not here to bash you for it.

I think in Developing the Talent that is bought into the club he is exceptional and that we have improved dramatically in terms of Staying in the Game and in a Position to win it. We are around where North Melbourne where last year in not being able to close out games

 

[Dav1d]

That's easy move Macca to VFL coach and hire a new senior coach

Therefore no payout required.

Move assistants out who arnt under contract and hire new guys to suit.

Macca then is in a role he should be fantastic at in developing our kids

Thats an interesting idea to be honest, not sure how it would work in reality though

 

[BRG93]

What has led you to believe that? Interesting

Think it could happen. Depends whether Thompson's in it for the money or not, but one way or another I don't think he'll remain at Essendon, and he may find it appealing to work with former Geelong colleagues he holds in high regard and enhance his own reputation being involved in a rebuild of another club.

Since he has a Strong Relationship with Brendon and the fact that the Moronic Golden Child James Hird will be back next season I think Mark may think his time is up at the Bombers and since he is only contracted til the end of this year I'm just sort of Connecting the Dots havn't heard anything from the people I usually speak to just an Opinion

 

[Mattdougie]

This isn't a Crack so relax, In what aspect of what Macca is doing at the moment is he failing?
I'm not one who has Zero Faith I'm not sure why you think he is that bad but that is your opinion and I'm not here to bash you for it.

I think in Developing the Talent that is bought into the club he is exceptional and that we have improved dramatically in terms of Staying in the Game and in a Position to win it. We are around where North Melbourne where last year in not being able to close out games

Mate we are 2-5 and will probably lose to Melbourne this week

That's enough to say we are going nowhere and I simply don't accept this stayin in game cr@p it's another excuse for losing. We have already lost to 3 teams we beat last year

And for as many kids he has developed there are an equal number of more that have gone nowhere or backwards
And for that to apparently be his major strength that simply isn't good enough in my book.

 

[gimp!]

Mate we are 2-5 and will probably lose to Melbourne this week

That's enough to say we are going nowhere

No it's not.

 

[TheHoneyBadger]

Since he has a Strong Relationship with Brendon and the fact that the Moronic Golden Child James Hird will be back next season I think Mark may think his time is up at the Bombers and since he is only contracted til the end of this year I'm just sort of Connecting the Dots havn't heard anything from the people I usually speak to just an Opinion

Macca just asserting his dominance over the shorter man there I haven't heard much but sometimes you just have a feeling. It'll probably amount to nothing, and money talks, but the planets seem to be aligning for the potential move, for lack of a less wanky term.

 

[BRG93]

Mate we are 2-5 and will probably lose to Melbourne this week

That's enough to say we are going nowhere and I simply don't accept this stayin in game cr@p it's another excuse for losing. We have already lost to 3 teams we beat last year

And for as many kids he has developed there are an equal number of more that have gone nowhere or backwards
And for that to apparently be his major strength that simply isn't good enough in my book.

That's Your Opinion Mate...
We still have our lapse in Games which are costing us dearly and when given the opportunity we ain't Capitalizing, This is all signs of Immaturity we are still going to have ups and downs for a While yet that isn't "Accepting Mediocrity" it's the fact teams generally don't pay great football until the core starts playing 50-100 Games.

 

[Trent85]

Los Gimp Ok

 

[fred cook]

This is all nonsense now my Aunty who has a second cousin that is a friend of the President told her last night that Brett Ratten has already signed the contract so Brett Ratten will be our new assistant coach for 2015 so no Bomber

 

[GetDimmaBack]

And you were excited when the club hired Macca??

Someone 3/4 hadn't even heard of

You said you've disagreed with the appointment of Macca all along, Matt.

Is this because he never played at the top level?

 

[Proffessor]

One line that keeps being used over and over on this forum is that 'McCartney is a great teacher/developer of talent'.

I question whether there is any evidence for this. Seriously, what evidence is there that our talent is developing better under McCartney than they would under any other coach, or that we are developing our talent better than any other club?

I think there is plenty of score board evidence that suggests that our talent development has been worse than most which is why we have been stuck down in the bottom 4 for the last 2+ years.

Sure our young players are talented. Every player on an AFL list is a very talented footballer and athlete. What makes our kids any more special than the young players at other clubs? Hoping they are doesn't make it so.

Also the continual talk about our younger players miraculously becoming stars once they get some more games under their belt, is frustrating to listen to. Although we have high hopes for all of them, which of them look like they are on track to become genuine 'stars'?
Which recruits (during McCartney's time) have shown outstanding features that are going to make them and the team superior to our opposition in the future?

 

[SuperMacPherson]

One line that keeps being used over and over on this forum is that 'McCartney is a great teacher/developer of talent'.

I question whether there is any evidence for this. Seriously, what evidence is there that our talent is developing better under McCartney than they would under any other coach, or that we are developing our talent better than any other club?

I think there is plenty of score board evidence that suggests that our talent development has been worse than most which is why we have been stuck down in the bottom 4 for the last 2+ years.

Sure our young players are talented. Every player on an AFL list is a very talented footballer and athlete. What makes our kids any more special than the young players at other clubs? Hoping they are doesn't make it so.

Also the continual talk about our younger players miraculously becoming stars once they get some more games under their belt, is frustrating to listen to. Although we have high hopes for all of them, which of them look like they are on track to become genuine 'stars'?
Which recruits (during McCartney's time) have shown outstanding features that are going to make them and the team superior to our opposition in the future?

Very good points Professor, and I agree with you 100%. There just isn't enough evidence to suggest that our club is heading in the right direction with the youth we have. We have been screaming out for a key tall forward for years, even in 06-2010 when we had a small forward line. Well, nothing has changed. We still have a small forward line that just doesn't score highly enough.

 

[Super Hans]

You can see it in senior players... You can't tell me Griffen and Minson haven't improved since Macca come to the club. + the young draftee's are mostly going along nicely.

It's a pretty bullshit cop out.

 

[Super Hans]

Very good points Professor, and I agree with you 100%. There just isn't enough evidence to suggest that our club is heading in the right direction with the youth we have. We have been screaming out for a key tall forward for years, even in 06-2010 when we had a small forward line. Well, nothing has changed. We still have a small forward line that just doesn't score highly enough.

Alright, were do you get a key forward from? They don't exactly grow on trees. We will almost certainly get one in this years draft.

Yeah we have a pretty poor youth.. I mean..
- Libba is the best contested midfielder in the comp and is 21.
- Jack Macrae is in his second season and averaging 27.9 touches, 7 marks and 3.4 tackles.
- Luke Dahlhaus is almost the #1 small pressure forward in the comp, and has already shown he can play midfield.
- Roughead is holding down full back (look how we struggle without him).
- Bontempelli and Stringer, even though considered long term prospects have already shown a bit at the AFL level. In Bontempelli's case even debuting this early is ahead of progress.
- Hunter. Looks the goods as a forward who can go through the midfield.
- Clay Smith. Was doing well before his ACL as a mid/fwd.
- Hrovat, even though he has had injury problems, we can see the talent he has. eg his debut vs St Kilda, his game vs Essendon last year.
- JJ, Talia, Campbell, Wallis, Stevens has all showed they are capable AFL players at times. But are a bit behind the other young players.

+ Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Higgins, Grant, Minson aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Very poor.

 

[Doggies_13]

Sorry but moving Macca from senior coach to vfl coach would require a pay out? any removal or change of position to Macca would require a pay out his contract with the Bulldogs is as senior coach you can't change a contract without consent from both parties and why would anyone consent to a lower position when they have been appointed for two more years after this one.

I think we should go all out for a senior assistant at the end of the season if that means losing one of our other assistants so be it.

Does wanting a senior assistant mean I don't support Macca? no not at all, but a senior assistant with experience would certainly do no harm at all to our team it may help us develop further and even help the coaching group develop further.

The common consensus by differing views on here is if anyone has faith in what Macca is doing it's blind faith and we will all follow him till he ruins the team, it's not the case at all the majority can see signs of where we are heading and that we are not far off. If this time next year we are not taking a step forward and turning most of these close games into wins then i think most of us that are keeping faith in him will be losing faith but most of us see enough signs to stay supportive this year.

 

[Proffessor]

Alright, were do you get a key forward from? They don't exactly grow on trees. We will almost certainly get one in this years draft.

Yeah we have a pretty poor youth.. I mean..
- Libba is the best contested midfielder in the comp and is 21.
- Jack Macrae is in his second season and averaging 27.9 touches, 7 marks and 3.4 tackles.
- Luke Dahlhaus is almost the #1 small pressure forward in the comp, and has already shown he can play midfield.
- Roughead is holding down full back (look how we struggle without him).
- Bontempelli and Stringer, even though considered long term prospects have already shown a bit at the AFL level. In Bontempelli's case even debuting this early is ahead of progress.
- Hunter. Looks the goods as a forward who can go through the midfield.
- Clay Smith. Was doing well before his ACL as a mid/fwd.
- Hrovat, even though he has had injury problems, we can see the talent he has. eg his debut vs St Kilda, his game vs Essendon last year.
- JJ, Talia, Campbell, Wallis, Stevens has all showed they are capable AFL players at times. But are a bit behind the other young players.

+ Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Higgins, Grant, Minson aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

Very poor.

Where did I say our youth were poor?

You have also listed a bunch of youngish players that had already broken into the senior team before McCartney arrived, that it could be argued would be doing just as well now or even better under another coach.
Remember they broke into a stronger team and did it when they were younger.

Of those that have been recruited under McCartney, please provide some evidence or reasoning to how they are developing better than young recruits at other clubs. Remember most clubs are actually ahead of us on the ladder.

And finally, regarding the key forward. He has had three draft/trade periods already! We have more half back flankers than you could field in three teams, but we have a minimal number of potential key forward types.

 

[grassman75]

That's easy move Macca to VFL coach and hire a new senior coach

Therefore no payout required.

Move assistants out who arnt under contract and hire new guys to suit.

Macca then is in a role he should be fantastic at in developing our kids

Can you clarify something for me Mattdougie.
If you don't like Macca or his coaching, then why on earth would you want to make him our VFL coach and put him in charge of developing our future stars and gameplan?
Because as I understand it, we just stretched ourselves to the limit to get our own stand alone team in the VFL, not so all of us old stagers get to watch footy at the Western Oval again, but so we can practice the gameplan and what we want to do on the big stage in these VFL games and ensure all of our list gets games rather than having them playing for the Willy development squad.
You would want Macca doing this?

 

[_Mike_]

And finally, regarding the key forward. He has had three draft/trade periods already! We have more half back flankers than you could field in three teams, but we have a minimal number of potential key forward types.

The last successful key forward "drafted/traded" was Hall.. that is quite sad IMO. We've traditionally been very bad at drafting KPFs & whilst the recent drafts have been compromised with priority picks to the franchise clubs, it doesn't make up for the last 23 years. (Grant was the last true KPF that we drafted young, kept and was a great player)

 

[yebiga]

We could have retained lake, cross, Addison and picked up podsiadly and chapman and be sitting with 4 wins and 2 losses
We could then make the finals, hey maybe even a preliminary final but again no flag would be headed our way. Its pretty much what we did under Eade and before that Wallace and Wheeler. The one time we actually may have won a flag was in 1997 which was on the back of 2 patient years of development with Joyce who added real discipline into the team and which Wallace was the beneficiary of and then went his own way looking for the quick win and left us worse than he found us in 2002.

Alternatively, we build a list and keep topping it up so it is overflowing with talent and patiently develop it just like Geelong and Hawthorn. We stay the course and then when we are a real genuine contender top it up with the likes of a chappy or pods if necessary.

It is human nature to want immediate results. It is frustrating taking the slow and methodical path to sustained success. To stay the course one needs to look passed the immediate win loss. The game against Essendon was fantastic for us - it showed us Dalhaus can be an elite midfielder, stringer has tricks to burn, Talia learnt a thing or two about positioning. Macrae is doing really well but is looking to be more effective. Dickson, Crameri need to have a rethink about their game and intensity.

In recent weeks Jong has had the opportunity to see what it takes and where he needs to improve.

Each player is a puzzle which needs to be solved and made consistent.

At the minute wins would actually mask our deficiencies and ****** development - I personally do not wish us to make the 8 this year. We need to beat the teams around our part of the ladder be competitive against the very best and then later in the season knock off a. Couple of finalists. Next year, I will expect us to be right in the mix for finals

 

[grassman75]

The last successful key forward "drafted/traded" was Hall.. that is quite sad IMO. We've traditionally been very bad at drafting KPFs & whilst the recent drafts have been compromised with priority picks to the franchise clubs, it doesn't make up for the last 23 years. (Grant was the last true KFP that we drafted young, kept and was a great player)

I reckon it goes back further than 14 years. If you read or have read the Unleashed book from a number of years ago, the common theme for us was "lack of a tall forward option cost us" throughout the decades