List Mgmt. Trade and F/A - Part 3

[stormskye]

Trade with what?

Better not be our 2022 picks...D.Hine is obsessed with buying now pay later future pick scheme. Credit card companies must love him.

This will be right up a couple on here's alley, trade out of a highly rated kpp draft that we would like finish bot 4 in even with all efforts not too (if list stays the same), for some B+ grade mid.

If we trade next years first.

 

[Stoods]

We can't be active in this year's trade period unless it involves trading players out for future picks, we have no currency to do so. I say try to build some picks for the 2022 draft seeing as this one we are gonna lose all our picks to daicos

As for pendles, confident a deal gets done there, but surely Pendles can take a bit of a pay cut, go down to like 400k a year? More than enough to survive lol

 

[regpies]

Neither Daicos or Darcy will get past a Norf bid, so your scenario is improbable.

If we still had our pick, which could end up being pick 2 after this weekend, we could’ve gone to North and given pick 2 plus next years first (likely top 5) for pick 1 and their 2nd and a future 2nd.

They get a top 5 pick next year for two 2nds.

We get Horne at pick 1, North bid on Daicos at pick 2 and the 2nd rd pick helps pay for him, plus a 2nd next year.

 

[Rebuilder]

If we still had our pick, which could end up being pick 2 after this weekend, we could’ve gone to North and given pick 2 plus next years first (likely top 5) for pick 1 and their 2nd and a future 2nd.

They get a top 5 pick next year for two 2nds.

We get Horne at pick 1, North bid on Daicos at pick 2 and the 2nd rd pick helps pay for him, plus a 2nd next year.

They'd never do it, there's 2 standout kids, they're not going to hand both over to play roulette.

 

[Jen2310]

If we still had our pick, which could end up being pick 2 after this weekend, we could’ve gone to North and given pick 2 plus next years first (likely top 5) for pick 1 and their 2nd and a future 2nd.

They get a top 5 pick next year for two 2nds.

We get Horne at pick 1, North bid on Daicos at pick 2 and the 2nd rd pick helps pay for him, plus a 2nd next year.

and then come next year, there is a KPF at the top end but we can't get him before we gave away the pick for another mid.

 

[doppleganger]

Do you honestly believe you can manufacture a Beams style trade every time the clubs looking to rebuild? the club itself did not want to lose Beams originally. You are basically saying go trade Degoey type talent to get another Degoey talent in and steak knives...

Good clubs do make big trades to get talent...they are always looking to improve their list.

Hawks traded pick 3 Croad to get Hodge after losing a PF, and then we're masterful traders for a decade.
Geelong's almost 20 years of contending based on big trades - Ottens, Ablett leaving, Danger, Kelly...never had a top4 pick.
Sydney are always good traders - big fish and small.
Essendon just did that too.

You can not see that this is not a realistic or reliable way to try to gain that talent?
Also the fact we still got the talent in that rebuild because YOU do in fact need that bracket of talent ( much to your original claim that you dont)...

This is where opinion differs - your so called "bracket of talent".

It is you who have created some world where the top few draft picks are so closely linked to future success. That it is soo important to finish low to get the top 1/2/3 draft pick.

The draft itself is compromised, you can get top talents without bottoming out, a strategy that is so focused on bottoming out is flawed.

Go take a look at Geelongs champion teams, how many top4 picks did they have? Same with Port now, they are going to finish 2nd, have they had a bottom 4 finish and top4 draft pick in the last decade??



The comforting news is I guess is that your thinking has Essendon stuffed. People are now incorrectly gushing over Essendon because they made brave moves without bottom 3 finishes - Saad n Daniher out for (Perkins and Reid)...I can take comfort that their future success is going to be compromised because they didn't get pick 3 talent - picks 8,9,10 aren't elite bracket talent. And even more comforting to know they have shot themselves in the foot even further by finishing up in no man's land this year, finishing in the dreaded 6-12 finish...to once again only get a pick 9.

Haha, those Essendon idiots are stuffed.

I know exactly what Carlton and Melbourne did and again you are putting words in my mouth.

StK and GoldCoast too went the just get more access to elite draft picks and long term success will happen.

Finally AFL "experts" realising giving those teams another top 3 draft pick isn't the answer.

 

[JLC]

Trade with what?

Better not be our 2022 picks...D.Hine is obsessed with buying now pay later future pick scheme. Credit card companies must love him.

This will be right up a couple on here's alley, trade out of a highly rated kpp draft that we would like finish bot 4 in even with all efforts not too (if list stays the same), for some B+ grade mid.

I reckon Hine will be feeling some serious heat. Everyone else around him have fallen on their sword. The lack of key position talent on our list is largely due to him.

There is a fair bit of banter on this board about what we did during last years national draft. I dare say GW would have analysed that within an inch of its life.

 

[Scodog10]

Nice way to treat a legend of the club, and a true champion, who has given his all for the club....unbelievable!!!

I’m not focused on the rear view mirror so that sort of sentiment is meaningless to me when I could use that $200k saving to extend Maynard, Moore or JDG. If anything I’d be shitty at Pendles if he asked for more given how well he’s been looked after by the club for 15 years and the exodus we saw last year! The guy is a rolled gold lock to be in the system for the next 15 years so my heart doesn’t exactly bleed for the guy getting $300k in the midst of us fixing our salary cap.

Just to reiterate.

 

[jackcass]

We can’t trade Steele because he’s owed too much over the next two years.

According to?

My understanding was he extended for less.

 

[Scodog10]

According to?

My understanding was he extended for less.

He pushed money back when we signed Beams ala Treloar. AFAIK the figures $1.5m.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

say i seem to remember an absolute specimen running around for you guys back in the day. unbelievable player really.
View attachment 1211648
after careful thought, I believe he is exactly what fremantle needs. nobody has burst pace like him.

Hypothetically what would we need to give up to get such a player to fremantle?

Straight swap for two Dave Hughes jokes.

 

[jackcass]

Graham Wright (when at Hawks) admitted that Hawthorn were absorbing ALL of Tom Phillips wage. Hence the low pick 65 trade pick we received.

Can you provide a link to that comment?

 

[jackcass]

He pushed money back when we signed Beams ala Treloar. AFAIK the figures $1.5m.

You’re the only person I’ve seen suggest this. Source? Link?

 

[jackcass]

We can't be active in this year's trade period unless it involves trading players out for future picks, we have no currency to do so. I say try to build some picks for the 2022 draft seeing as this one we are gonna lose all our picks to daicos

As for pendles, confident a deal gets done there, but surely Pendles can take a bit of a pay cut, go down to like 400k a year? More than enough to survive lol

We can’t be active in the trade period because we need vacant list spots to activate points value for our available picks.

 

[jackcass]

I did say we should of played a few more kids that year not the whole team. Development and serves a purpose, you aren't garaunteed to lose you know that right? That was the Stephenson draft.

I'm not talking playing players out of position or sending the entire senior team off for surgery like we did 04 and 05.

Tanking by any other name…

 

[LarryKinn]

We can’t be active in the trade period because we need vacant list spots to activate points value for our available picks.

This quote should be required reading upon joining this thread !

 

[Apex36]

If we still had our pick, which could end up being pick 2 after this weekend, we could’ve gone to North and given pick 2 plus next years first (likely top 5) for pick 1 and their 2nd and a future 2nd.

They get a top 5 pick next year for two 2nds.

We get Horne at pick 1, North bid on Daicos at pick 2 and the 2nd rd pick helps pay for him, plus a 2nd next year.

I’d rather keep next years first and have the potential to get an elite KPP than trade it for Horne, who I’m not convinced is the amazing talent people say he is. I don’t think that trade would be worth it tbh.

 

[OniAu]

I reckon Hine will be feeling some serious heat. Everyone else around him have fallen on their sword. The lack of key position talent on our list is largely due to him.

There is a fair bit of banter on this board about what we did during last years national draft. I dare say GW would have analysed that within an inch of its life.

Feel like he should be next to go, had his run. Still has the same gaping holes on our list of when he started.

 

[loki04]

Good clubs do make big trades to get talent...they are always looking to improve their list.

Hawks traded pick 3 Croad to get Hodge after losing a PF, and then we're masterful traders for a decade.
Geelong's almost 20 years of contending based on big trades - Ottens, Ablett leaving, Danger, Kelly...never had a top4 pick.
Sydney are always good traders - big fish and small.
Essendon just did that too.

This is where opinion differs - your so called "bracket of talent".

It is you who have created some world where the top few draft picks are so closely linked to future success. That it is soo important to finish low to get the top 1/2/3 draft pick.

The draft itself is compromised, you can get top talents without bottoming out, a strategy that is so focused on bottoming out is flawed.

Go take a look at Geelongs champion teams, how many top4 picks did they have? Same with Port now, they are going to finish 2nd, have they had a bottom 4 finish and top4 draft pick in the last decade??



The comforting news is I guess is that your thinking has Essendon stuffed. People are now incorrectly gushing over Essendon because they made brave moves without bottom 3 finishes - Saad n Daniher out for (Perkins and Reid)...I can take comfort that their future success is going to be compromised because they didn't get pick 3 talent - picks 8,9,10 aren't elite bracket talent. And even more comforting to know they have shot themselves in the foot even further by finishing up in no man's land this year, finishing in the dreaded 6-12 finish...to once again only get a pick 9.

Haha, those Essendon idiots are stuffed.


StK and GoldCoast too went the just get more access to elite draft picks and long term success will happen.

Finally AFL "experts" realising giving those teams another top 3 draft pick isn't the answer.

Do Richmond win 3 flags without D.Martin? Bit got say Sidebottom? I noticed last time I bought him up you ignored it very selective with your quoting.

No they don't would of been lucky to win 1. That is the difference in elite talents that you can get. Is it garaunteed no but its a hell of a lot better chances then relying on pick 8 to 30 range.

My arbitary top 5 pick never stated top 3 is actually more games played then any bracket of pick range. The players even if aren't superstars generally go on to become good players at a minimum. The lower the draft order the lower the chance.

Geelong had multiple top 10s and Hawkins who was rated top 5 in his draft year but fs back then could be had for sweet fa.
Ablett jnr also lucked out for them, they had a lot go right

I never said pick 8,9,10 isn't great talents, I said typically not your match winning reliable game changer talents ie your martins Bonts etc. They 90% of the time come from the top 5 picks.

Essendon let's review them not getting bottom 5 picks ....

2008 Pick 5 M.Hurley
2015 Pick 5 Darcy Parish (Also used pick 6 in this draft)
2018 Pick 1 Ash Mcgrath (Ridley @21 thnx to their finish position).

So why would they be in your group on not going the low end draft route...their build leans closer to mine.

Acquired 3 top 6 picks in 3 years from low finishes, then looked to trade in a former rated top3 predicted gws pick in Shiel and also a highly rated Smith not too mention a cheap on the nose Stringer which is similar to someone picking up Degoey.

They have already hit low end they are building to come up and getting multiple 6 to 10 bracket picks only helps them.

I'm advocating similar and you have your knickers in a twist over it because u dun need top 5 picks you can just hope luck shines on your later picks whilst scraping up wins but never really in the hunt.

GC are a basket case and have been from the start, why you even discuss them is ridiculous.

Do you read the whole of what I write or just see top5 pick and foam?
As previously stated a lot goes into a good team and club they do not have enough quality senior bodies and also went through a toxic off field culture only recently under dew did they start a fresh.
Look at how long it takes teams to typically hit their straps its generally 7 years King Rankine Lukosious etc draft are years off consistentancy.

Bomber 7th season, Dimma similar, MM 10th year, Buckley took 8 to make a single GF.

Clarkson was one of the rare ones who donned early and that was largely off the back of a mix of astute drafting, tanked a year and save trading.

“I thought disaster”: Hawks great’s initial reaction to Alastair Clarkson appointment

"I thought this is not good for a couple of reasons."

www.sen.com.au

“I sat down with him at Glenferrie Oval … and he said, ‘Listen, I want you to stay around, I’m going to play all these kids, we’re going to draft all these kids and I’m going to play them, and they’re not going to be ready to go. I’d like you to try and help me teach them how to train hard and get them in the right space to hopefully go on and have a career’.

“And then he followed up with, ‘By the way, your good mates who have been very loyal to this footy club and had a crack - I’m going to sack them’. And then on top of that, ‘We’re not going to win many games. We’re going to try, but we’ve got to be realistic about it’.

 

[loki04]

Tanking by any other name…

No there is tanking and managing a season.

Tanking to me is what Carlton and Melbourne planned for over numerous seasons the whole club including the players knew they wanted to lose.

They had a firesale of any and all senior talent including players in the 25 to 28 yo bracket. No one to guide the youth or any chance of getting any wins.

My suggestion and that ^^ are different. You guys just panick too much and are short sighted in your need to be good (relatively) straight away.

 

[regpies]

and then come next year, there is a KPF at the top end but we can't get him before we gave away the pick for another mid.

With the way we draft we wouldn’t have taken that key forward anyway, we would just select another small forward.

With the volume of picks we took last year it seems the strategy is just get as many kids in early as possible and see which ones come good.

I think we will trade future picks again. It’s the only currency we have and continues the strategy of getting a bulk number of kids in.

 

[doppleganger]

I never said pick 8,9,10 isn't great talents, I said typically not your match winning reliable game changer talents ie your martins Bonts etc. They 90% of the time come from the top 5 picks.

Become a perennial middle of the road team never quite good enough for finals and a bit too good for decent picks that get you there...

If you are a middle of the road team you get picks 8,9,10...not the decent picks needed to get you there according to you.

And LOL at your maths....90% = 9 of 10 of the he current AFL stars were top 5 picks were they?

Just 4 of last years AA team were top 5 picks, 20%.

In 2019 it was just 2 (3 if you include J.Cameron who wasn't taken via draft).

Essendon let's review them not getting bottom 5 picks ....

2008 Pick 5 M.Hurley
2015 Pick 5 Darcy Parish (Also used pick 6 in this draft)
2018 Pick 1 Ash Mcgrath (Ridley @21 thnx to their finish position).

So why would they be in your group on not going the low end draft route...their build leans closer to mine.

Make your mind up.

You want end up the Dons of the 00s or Richmond before they got their act together? Become a perennial middle of the road team never quite good enough for finals and a bit too good for decent picks that get you there...

So originally in the 00s you were critical of not ending up like Essendon.

An Essendon team that actually had three consecutive shit finishes 06-08, including a 2nd last - having pick 2, 5, 6 in successive years as what not to do....despite it being exactly what you say leads to future success.

But now you try and link a pick 5 from 2008 (13 years ago) as part of their current build?? Why not pick 2 from 06 included too?? Head scratcher.

And yes they did again go your path in 2015-16, bottom four finishes - picks 1,5,6 in consecutive drafts. It again got them nowhere - still ain't won a final since early 2000s.

Finally last year, they tried a rebuild again...trading out stars for a glut of mediocre picks.

 

[soreplums]

Feel like he should be next to go, had his run. Still has the same gaping holes on our list of when he started.

List manager/ head recruiter only picks the type of players that the the coach asks for. I think he is going ok. The club’s error was to take him away from his bread and butter and put him in charge of list management

 

[Billys Back]

If we still had our pick, which could end up being pick 2 after this weekend, we could’ve gone to North and given pick 2 plus next years first (likely top 5) for pick 1 and their 2nd and a future 2nd.

They get a top 5 pick next year for two 2nds.

We get Horne at pick 1, North bid on Daicos at pick 2 and the 2nd rd pick helps pay for him, plus a 2nd next year.

I think that sounds plausible. If we can pick up Horne and Daicos this draft, our midfield will be set.
There's no guarantees there will be a top KP forward in the top 5 players next year anyway. We will still have our second and can always trade up next year.

 

[loki04]

Become a perennial middle of the road team never quite good enough for finals and a bit too good for decent picks that get you there...

If you are a middle of the road team you get picks 8,9,10...not the decent picks needed to get you there according to you.

And LOL at your maths....90% = 9 of 10 of the he current AFL stars were top 5 picks were they?

Just 4 of last years AA team were top 5 picks, 20%.

In 2019 it was just 2 (3 if you include J.Cameron who wasn't taken via draft).


Make your mind up.


So originally in the 00s you were critical of not ending up like Essendon.

An Essendon team that actually had three consecutive sh*t finishes 06-08, including a 2nd last - having pick 2, 5, 6 in successive years as what not to do....despite it being exactly what you say leads to future success.

But now you try and link a pick 5 from 2008 (13 years ago) as part of their current build?? Why not pick 2 from 06 included too?? Head scratcher.

And yes they did again go your path in 2015-16, bottom four finishes - picks 1,5,6 in consecutive drafts. It again got them nowhere - still ain't won a final since early 2000s.

Finally last year, they tried a rebuild again...trading out stars for a glut of mediocre picks.

Mate Essendon 00 mid years. Get with it its been 20 years.
My mind hasn't changed I have been consistent you bought up the current essendon team attempting to say they will be shit because they hit 8 9 and 10 of the draft but failed to list they already have dropped and got pick 1 and pick 5s plus a pick 6.

You are incapable or being deliberately obtuse to understand what I have wrote previously. Like dipping for only a few seasons rather then 4 and then coming up. timing of when you rise is important and is what I was getting at with those picks.
90% of those types come from that draft range not 90% conversion rate into those types, if you don't get access you will rarely get one. You need luck pass that. 90% of course was flippant % mister take everything literally.
I can't explain it any more detailed then I have but your thicker then 2 bricks.

Obviously those picks are good if your team has already dropped and is on the rise, our team hasn't yet.
You understand or still gonna play dumb?