List Mgmt. Trade and F/A - Part 3

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loki04 said:
You dont get Dusty without the top 5 pick. That's the point.
You dont get Pendles and Thomas.
You dont get Degoey.
You dont get Bontempelli, J.Kelly either.
You dont get Kennedy Franklin Roughead J.Cameron NicNat Fyfe...
You dont get Hodge, Judd or Ball or a Didak in their prime or for a reasonable list cap space cost.
Or any of the other great top 5s left out.


Without having access to that draft range you will very rarely have the chance or in that scenario luck to get a generational talent.

Astounding.
Click to expand...
Not sure about Fyfe
I think you got a little excited there….
 
Billys Back said:
This was a hypothetical based on whether we still held our first pick. And yes maybe they would have thought about it if they moved from pick 1 to 2 this draft and added a potential top 3 or 4 pick next year. They may like 2 kids equally for their first.
Click to expand...
Once again I'd ask you to reverse it, would we give up a Horne or a N Daicos?
 

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Billys Back said:
This was a hypothetical based on whether we still held our first pick. And yes maybe they would have thought about it if they moved from pick 1 to 2 this draft and added a potential top 3 or 4 pick next year. They may like 2 kids equally for their first.
Click to expand...
They would have been nuts to not do it. Unless they see a massive gap between Horne and next best.
 
loki04 said:
Essendon had a top 5 pick 3 years ago **** in a sock and only 5 years ago had the number 1 pick.
Click to expand...
It was the 2015/16 drafts - 5 and 6 seasons ago.
Why haven't they won a final yet?
Aren't teams meant to bounce if you get elite talent?
Instead they were rebuilding again this year?

loki04 said:
Bottoming for 2 to 3 has.

Bottoming for 4 to 5 hasn't.
Click to expand...
Apart from priority pick era teams, who are the teams that have actually bottomed for 2 and gone on to success??

Richmond bottomed for a decade
Geelong never bottomed
Pies had PP
Hawks had PP
Sydney never bottomed
Eagles won a flag with their top picks - NicNat/Gaff and Sheppard - all missing.

Of the top4 this year
Melbourne bottom for a decade
Brisbane bottom for a decade
Port never bottomed
Geelong never bottomed

Teams that try the strategic "bottoming" aren't bouncing back now that priority picks are gone.

If the environment you are operating in changes, you need to adjust your strategy.

loki04 said:
If you weren' everything I have posted you would see that I'm not against striving for best finish position
Click to expand...
What!!??
Your point is it is better to lose games to get a better draft position, that finishing mid-table prevents you from getting the real elite talent required for success.

loki04 said:
Teams can pinch one without them perhaps with luck and poor competition, although im yet to see a premiership side with 0 top 5 talent on the list.
Click to expand...
Top 5 talent or top 5 picks?

Geelong 07-11 dominant teams didn't have a top5 draft pick...but they clearly managed to pick the eyes out of many drafts.

They built their list from two dominant drafts 99 and 01...and didn't need a top5 pick, or bottoming out to get them.

In 99 they finished 11th with 10 wins and drafted - J.Corey (8), Ling (38), Chapman (31), Enright (47)
In 01 they finished 12th with 9 wins and drafted - Bartel (8) J.Kelly (17) C.Gardiner (24), S.Johnson (26), G.Ablett (40)

We will hopefully look back on 2020 draft similarly - Henry (17), Macrae (19), Reef (23), Poulter (30), MCMahon (31), McReery (44) and Ginny is our Max Rooke rookie draft special!!

Again not a top5 pick to be seen, but hopefully some top5 talent just like Geelong nailed.
 
loki04 said:
You dont get Dusty without the top 5 pick. That's the point.
You dont get Pendles and Thomas.
You dont get Degoey.
You dont get Bontempelli, J.Kelly either.
You dont get Kennedy Franklin Roughead J.Cameron NicNat Fyfe...
You dont get Hodge, Judd or Ball or a Didak in their prime or for a reasonable list cap space cost.
Or any of the other great top 5s left out.


Without having access to that draft range you will very rarely have the chance or in that scenario luck to get a generational talent.

Astounding.
Click to expand...

I would largely agree, except that you're being a jerk off about it.
 
loki04 said:
You dont get Dusty without the top 5 pick. That's the point.
You dont get Pendles and Thomas.
You dont get Degoey.
You dont get Bontempelli, J.Kelly either.
You dont get Kennedy Franklin Roughead J.Cameron NicNat Fyfe...
You dont get Hodge, Judd or Ball or a Didak in their prime or for a reasonable list cap space cost.
Or any of the other great top 5s left out.

Without having access to that draft range you will very rarely have the chance or in that scenario luck to get a generational talent.

Astounding.
Click to expand...
Hahaha.

There are heaps of generational talent taken outside the top5, you even had to include Fyfe (pick 20) in your list!

Will always be happy with Swan from the 01 draft at 63 without him we don't do anything.

But on the flip side here are chumps taken with top 5 picks

01 - Polak, X.Clarke
02 - Brennan, T.Walsh
03 - 1AW, Col Sylvia, F.Ray, B.McLean
04 - Tambling
05 - X.Ellis
06 - Gumbleton, L.Hansen, Leunberger
07 - C.Morton, J.Grant
08 - J.Watts, S.Hill, H.Hartlett
09 - Trengove, Morabito
10 - D.Swallow, Bennell, Polec, S.Day
11 - Patton, D.Tyson, WHE, Buntine
12 - O'Rourke, Plowman, Toumpass
13 - Boyd, Billings, K.Kolo
14 - McCartin, Pickett
15 - Scache
16 - Ainsworth, Setterfiled

Won't go further as not fair to right off a guy like Dow as a bust just yet. But drafting isn't getting better, just as many top5 busts recently.

Imagine strategically wanting to lose just so you could pick up one of those highly rated kids. It is a flawed strategy.
 
doppleganger said:
It was the 2015/16 drafts - 5 and 6 seasons ago.
Why haven't they won a final yet?
Aren't teams meant to bounce if you get elite talent?
Instead they were rebuilding again this year?


Apart from priority pick era teams, who are the teams that have actually bottomed for 2 and gone on to success??

Richmond bottomed for a decade
Geelong never bottomed
Pies had PP
Hawks had PP
Sydney never bottomed
Eagles won a flag with their top picks - NicNat/Gaff and Sheppard - all missing.

Of the top4 this year
Melbourne bottom for a decade
Brisbane bottom for a decade
Port never bottomed
Geelong never bottomed

Teams that try the strategic "bottoming" aren't bouncing back now that priority picks are gone.

If the environment you are operating in changes, you need to adjust your strategy.


What!!??
Your point is it is better to lose games to get a better draft position, that finishing mid-table prevents you from getting the real elite talent required for success.


Top 5 talent or top 5 picks?

Geelong 07-11 dominant teams didn't have a top5 draft pick...but they clearly managed to pick the eyes out of many drafts.

They built their list from two dominant drafts 99 and 01...and didn't need a top5 pick, or bottoming out to get them.

In 99 they finished 11th with 10 wins and drafted - J.Corey (8), Ling (38), Chapman (31), Enright (47)
In 01 they finished 12th with 9 wins and drafted - Bartel (8) J.Kelly (17) C.Gardiner (24), S.Johnson (26), G.Ablett (40)

We will hopefully look back on 2020 draft similarly - Henry (17), Macrae (19), Reef (23), Poulter (30), MCMahon (31), McReery (44) and Ginny is our Max Rooke rookie draft special!!

Again not a top5 pick to be seen, but hopefully some top5 talent just like Geelong nailed.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. In terms of rebuilding through bottoming out, the elephant in the room is that good teams are built around a core of blokes who are 25+ years old. That awesome cats team took 8 years from their draft hits before they became that awesome cats team, so timeliness for a quick bounce with some fresh kids are extremely unrealistic.

In terms of current teams, bottoming out hasn't worke. , But we can't really use this to predict the best way forward. As much of these teams were built during an era where expansion teams got all the early picks. I think it's a flawed strategy without priority picks. But only time will truly tell.
 
Sea fog said:
He will pick Saints before us. What guns ever want to come to the Pies?
Click to expand...
The Saints won’t be able to afford him. Their cap has been well and truly ****ed by Gubby.
 
Swoop in with an offer fit for a King and build around a proper lynchpin for once instead of half arsing it at the death when the window is about to close.
 
Does anyone know why there is talk that Sidebottom is contracted for 2023?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...y/news-story/1f162407c49b8ab8f6d764185b96c855


Steele Sidebottom

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $650,000-$700,000

COVID SALARY: $468,000-$504,000

Sidebottom had a five-year deal expiring in 2021 that was said to pay him around $3 million but with the uptick in the salary cap would still be in the top bracket. He added an extra season through to 2022 to get more security and would have likely taken a small trim but he is still one of the stars of the competition and deserves to be handsomely rewarded.



Scott Pendlebury

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $800,000-$850,000

COVID SALARY: $576,000-$612,000

Pendlebury penned a massive four-year extension in 2015 at the peak of his powers and signed on early this year to extend his deal through to 2021. For many years Pendlebury would have been Collingwood's highest-paid player - if not in the top three - but the expectation is that in his latter years he has taken a pay cut to keep the list together.



Brodie Grundy

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $550,000-$625,000

COVID SALARY: $414,000-$450,000

The AFL's prototypical ruckman drove a hard bargain and even threatened to head home but eventually got his seven-year contract extension. He secured it for a tick under $7 million but, like Tom Lynch, will make just under $600,000 this season before his contract ramps up in 2021.



Jordan De Goey

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $775,000-$825,000

COVID SALARY: $558,000-$594,000

De Goey's two-year contract didn't come cheap and is slightly back-ended. It is understood to start with an eight this year including incentives and a marketing allowance (ASA).



Darcy Moore
Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $625,000-$675,000

COVID SALARY: $450,000-$486,000

Moore could be footy's best defender by year's end and is keen to stay at the club where his father became famous. He has missed chances to sign megabucks deals given unfortunate injuries and the Pies declining to negotiate an early contract extension after a breakout second season. But he is still well paid and, at only 24, has time to set himself up for life after football.



Taylor Adams

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $650,000-$700,000

COVID SALARY: $468,000-$504,000

One of many Pies to accept a long-term deal in a selfless manner so the club can remain a contender. He signed a five-year extension last July that locks him in until 2024 and the brilliant flint-hard midfielder also has the leadership skills that could eventually make him a captain in a group that also includes Jeremy Howe and Steele Sidebottom.


Adam Treloar

Club: Collingwood/Bulldogs

SALARY: $775,000-$825,000

COVID SALARY: $558,000-$594,000

Like many Pies, including Taylor Adams, he has accepted the security of a longer-term deal but slightly less money as the only way the list can stay together in the premiership window. The Pies knocked back a trade enquiry from Gold Coast last year - Collingwood would have wanted pick one or two in exchange - for Treloar.
 
Rebuilder said:
Does anyone know why there is talk that Sidebottom is contracted for 2023?
Click to expand...
There was talk he extended to help with the cap situation. I haven’t seen anything official.
 

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Rebuilder said:
Does anyone know why there is talk that Sidebottom is contracted for 2023?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...y/news-story/1f162407c49b8ab8f6d764185b96c855


Steele Sidebottom

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $650,000-$700,000

COVID SALARY: $468,000-$504,000

Sidebottom had a five-year deal expiring in 2021 that was said to pay him around $3 million but with the uptick in the salary cap would still be in the top bracket. He added an extra season through to 2022 to get more security and would have likely taken a small trim but he is still one of the stars of the competition and deserves to be handsomely rewarded.



Scott Pendlebury

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $800,000-$850,000

COVID SALARY: $576,000-$612,000

Pendlebury penned a massive four-year extension in 2015 at the peak of his powers and signed on early this year to extend his deal through to 2021. For many years Pendlebury would have been Collingwood's highest-paid player - if not in the top three - but the expectation is that in his latter years he has taken a pay cut to keep the list together.



Brodie Grundy

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $550,000-$625,000

COVID SALARY: $414,000-$450,000

The AFL's prototypical ruckman drove a hard bargain and even threatened to head home but eventually got his seven-year contract extension. He secured it for a tick under $7 million but, like Tom Lynch, will make just under $600,000 this season before his contract ramps up in 2021.



Jordan De Goey

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $775,000-$825,000

COVID SALARY: $558,000-$594,000

De Goey's two-year contract didn't come cheap and is slightly back-ended. It is understood to start with an eight this year including incentives and a marketing allowance (ASA).



Darcy Moore
Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $625,000-$675,000

COVID SALARY: $450,000-$486,000

Moore could be footy's best defender by year's end and is keen to stay at the club where his father became famous. He has missed chances to sign megabucks deals given unfortunate injuries and the Pies declining to negotiate an early contract extension after a breakout second season. But he is still well paid and, at only 24, has time to set himself up for life after football.



Taylor Adams

Club: Collingwood

SALARY: $650,000-$700,000

COVID SALARY: $468,000-$504,000

One of many Pies to accept a long-term deal in a selfless manner so the club can remain a contender. He signed a five-year extension last July that locks him in until 2024 and the brilliant flint-hard midfielder also has the leadership skills that could eventually make him a captain in a group that also includes Jeremy Howe and Steele Sidebottom.


Adam Treloar

Club: Collingwood/Bulldogs

SALARY: $775,000-$825,000

COVID SALARY: $558,000-$594,000

Like many Pies, including Taylor Adams, he has accepted the security of a longer-term deal but slightly less money as the only way the list can stay together in the premiership window. The Pies knocked back a trade enquiry from Gold Coast last year - Collingwood would have wanted pick one or two in exchange - for Treloar.
Click to expand...

Sidey re-signed to the end of 2022, the same time Elliott and Howe did. I remember reading the article about the trio re-signing.
 
Dead Eye Didak said:
Sidey re-signed to the end of 2022, the same time Elliott and Howe did. I remember reading the article about the trio re-signing.
Click to expand...
Yeah I read that too, maybe I'm misinterpreting this:

Scodog10 said:
We can’t trade Steele because he’s owed too much over the next two years.
Click to expand...

Come and clarify this dog, it's bugging the hell out of me.
 
Rebuilder said:
Swoop in with an offer fit for a King and build around a proper lynchpin for once instead of half arsing it at the death when the window is about to close.
Click to expand...
IMO Whether it’s King, McDonald or anyone else, you get the guy you need. Pay the price and build around them.

just need to wait until we have the currency
 
loki04 said:
You dont get Dusty without the top 5 pick. That's the point.
You dont get Pendles and Thomas.
You dont get Degoey.
You dont get Bontempelli, J.Kelly either.
You dont get Kennedy Franklin Roughead J.Cameron NicNat Fyfe...
You dont get Hodge, Judd or Ball or a Didak in their prime or for a reasonable list cap space cost.
Or any of the other great top 5s left out.


Without having access to that draft range you will very rarely have the chance or in that scenario luck to get a generational talent.

Astounding.
Click to expand...
I mean Fyfe was not a top 5, let alone top 10 pick. That was my point. What about Lachie Neale, what about Tom Lynch, Touk, Miller, Maynard, Crisp, Grundy? Dane Swan? Where did our premiership captain go again? There are as many stars with lower picks than top 10s. It's funny how Boone mentions Bachhar Houlis draft range given how good he was in their 17 flag.
 
loki04 said:
You dont get Dusty without the top 5 pick. That's the point.
You dont get Pendles and Thomas.
You dont get Degoey.
You dont get Bontempelli, J.Kelly either.
You dont get Kennedy Franklin Roughead J.Cameron NicNat Fyfe...
You dont get Hodge, Judd or Ball or a Didak in their prime or for a reasonable list cap space cost.
Or any of the other great top 5s left out.


Without having access to that draft range you will very rarely have the chance or in that scenario luck to get a generational talent.

Astounding.
Click to expand...
Dusty was anyone’s at one point, just needed to cough up the cash.
 
As of October 1st we have 8 players 30 years and over

Pendlebury
Sidebottom
Roughead
Howe

Cox
Thomas
Mayne (ret)
Greenwood (Ret)

Add JT and Cox to the retirements and just keep the cream til next year when more than half the list is off contract and we know who (and with how much) we can target.
 
Rebuilder said:
As of October 1st we have 8 players 30 years and over

Pendlebury
Sidebottom
Roughead
Howe

Cox
Thomas
Mayne (ret)
Greenwood (Ret)

Add JT and Cox to the retirements and just keep the cream til next year when more than half the list is off contract and we know who (and with how much) we can target.
Click to expand...
By the end of trade period there should only be the top 4 on our list.
 
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