Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 2 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[hutchy31]

I don’t mind who we bring in via trade/free agency as long as we’re not giving away our first. English, Naughton and Smith are our last three - the first looks like he might be elite, and I’m confident the last two absolutely will be.

I like Martin, he’s been stuck in a shitty development/culture situation and still looked pretty good in patches. The money might put us off but I have no doubt he’d make us better.

Naughton, Schache, Dale, Martin, Lloyd and Dickson looks pretty good imo - with Martin able to cycle through the midfield and let Smith, McLean or whoever slot in forward. AMT would also slot in there, but my guess is he stays at Essendon.

Not massively fussed on the KPDs as long as we get one - worryingly thin there.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I like this line of thinking. Noting also that if we DO want to play Naughton forward (or if there are injuries to a KPF) then we always have Young, Cordy and Trengove who can slot into the defence.

Exactly. The advantage of Naughton back is that we can play him on anybody. Quick leading forward? Yep. Powerful contested marking type? You got it. Smaller forward? Absolutely. No real clear matchup? Cool, we'll play him off the contest as an interceptor. Young, Cordy, Keath and Trengove can play one or two of these roles nicely, but none of them can comfortably and reliably tackle everyone. Naughton can - and it allows us to be more aggressive and open up even more scoring opportunities with a more competitive backline.

 

[Northernsoul74]

I’ve said it before. Has the perfect frame to be a beast with a couple more preseasons under his belt....

Yep no reason he can’t be what Rance is.

 

[compact72]

Yep no reason he can’t be what Rance is.

That's insulting

Never compare any WB player to Rance. Shame on you

 

[ErnieSigley]

Close to 0 chance Naughton playing backline next year.
Good forward are rare.

 

[dogspur]

Close to 0 chance Naughton playing backline next year.
Good forward are rare.

Doesn't matter, if we get Bruce, we don't need Naughton up forward, and he's more than capable of playing defence at an elite level.

 

[Dogsman16]

Cause we a predominately a forward half team, I'd love to keep our best players in the forward half. Naughton the main one.

Naughton seems like the perfect player to remain forward, but then if hes not going well or our defense is under siege we switch him back.

We should be trying to obliterate teams of the park with multiple marking options and if its going pear shaped make the change.

We have had terrible marking options for the better part of the modern era. Having 2 KPF's that can kick 40 goals and terrify opposition defence would win us a premiership. Schache is just as likely to go off the boil for half a season (which has happened twice), so having 2 great marking options frees him up significantly.

One of Bruce/Naughton recieveing the second defender would be an absolute game changer. Keath, Tregrove, Young, Cordy gives us enough KPD depth.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Close to 0 chance Naughton playing backline next year.
Good forward are rare.

They are. The question isn't how good our best forward is, though, it's how good we are as a team.

If we get someone like Bruce, I'm very confident our best team will have Naughton in defence. The alternatives are not playing Bruce, trying to make Naughton and Bruce coexist and persisting with Trengove/Cordy/Young down back, or pushing Bruce to defence, where he's shown nothing for two clubs.

We can't get too attached to Naughton playing a particular position. He's a gun wherever we put him - he plays in the position that maximises our chances of winning a premiership. Depending on the outcome of this off-season, there's a very real possibility that that's down back.

 

[dogspur]

Cause we a predominately a forward half team, I'd love to keep our best players in the forward half. Naughton the main one.

Naughton seems like the perfect player to remain forward, but then if hes not going well or our defense is under siege we switch him back.

We should be trying to obliterate teams of the park with multiple marking options and if its going pear shaped make the change.

We have had terrible marking options for the better part of the modern era. Having 2 KPF's that can kick 40 goals and terrify opposition defence would win us a premiership. Schache is just as likely to go off the boil for half a season (which has happened twice), so having 2 great marking options frees him up significantly.

One of Bruce/Naughton recieveing the second defender would be an absolute game changer. Keath, Tregrove, Young, Cordy gives us enough KPD depth.

I don't buy this second defender stuff. Most teams have at least two very good tall defenders these days. If we're playing a full-strength Richmond with Bruce in the side, let's say Naughton gets Rance, then Bruce just gets Astbury/Grimes, which is still an extremely tough matchup, and Rance zones off all the time anyway.

Richmond won the 2017 flag convincingly with only 1 key forward in Riewoldt. We won it in 2016 without any key-forwards, unless you want to count Tom Boyd having a great GF. Having a group of 4-5 dangerous, pressure-applying small forwards is arguably more effective than 3+ talls.

 

[Dogsman16]

I don't buy this second defender stuff. Most teams have at least two very good tall defenders these days. If we're playing a full-strength Richmond with Bruce in the side, let's say Naughton gets Rance, then Bruce just gets Astbury/Grimes, which is still an extremely tough matchup, and Rance zones off all the time anyway.

Richmond won the 2017 flag convincingly with only 1 key forward in Riewoldt. We won it in 2016 without any key-forwards, unless you want to count Tom Boyd having a great GF. Having a group of 4-5 dangerous, pressure-applying small forwards is arguably more effective than 3+ talls.

I could counter that argument by saying WCE 2018, Hawthorn 2013 -2015 all played with several high quality tall forwards.

And we did play 2 talls in that grand final, Boyd/Roughead split time forward and Cordy was playing KPF. In fact Cordy being soundly beaten by Grundy was the a significant reason as to why Sydney got close to us. Grundy was close to best on ground. A key pairing of Naughton/Bruce in that grand final, well Grundy doesnt play like that.

Also yes a lot of teams do have 2 genuine good KPD's. However one is often the interceptor and doesnt play body to body on their opponent. Reason why Mason Cox absolutely stiched up Rance in 2018 PF.

Richmond are the only team that have ever won a Grand final playing one tall forward. Dont get me wrong its possible, but its not the norm.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Cause we a predominately a forward half team, I'd love to keep our best players in the forward half. Naughton the main one.

The counter point is that we're an offensive team, but our major weakness this year was the amount of points we let through. We scored the third-most of any team over 22 rounds, but conceded the seventh-most points. If we can replicate our offensive output while holding steadier down back, we go a long way to being a much better side.

Now, it's entirely possible that moving Naughton out of the forward line will drop that offensive output to a disproportionate degree, and that's something worth considering - but if that is the case, we always possess the flexibility to make a change. I think, if someone like Bruce comes in the door, it's something worth trying.

 

[dogspur]

I could counter that argument by saying WCE 2018, Hawthorn 2013 -2015 all played with several high quality tall forwards.

Well, that's why I said arguable. Those Hawthorn/WCE teams had some damn good small forwards mind you; Rioli and Ryan were probably the difference between winning a flag and being pretenders again last year.

And we did play 2 talls in that grand final, Boyd/Roughead split time forward and Cordy was playing KPF. In fact Cordy being soundly beaten by Grundy was the a significant reason as to why Sydney got close to us. Grundy was close to best on ground. A key pairing of Naughton/Bruce in that grand final, well Grundy doesnt play like that.

Cordy was a makeshift defensive forward. There's a reason we rarely ever see him there anymore.
Roughead & Boyd were both resting rucks. Neither had anywhere near the same effectiveness up forward as say, Jack Riewoldt 2017, or Darling/Kennedy 2018.

Also yes a lot of teams do have 2 genuine good KPD's. However one is often the interceptor and doesnt play body to body on their opponent. Reason why Mason Cox absolutely stiched up Rance in 2018 PF.

I mean, that's one game though. Rance has been obliterating his direct opponent for the last 5 years while zoning off.

 

[F3000]

Baffling that after so many years of being in the wilderness looking for a KPF and now Shaquille and Naughton are gelling together perfectly to give us the most potent forward line we've seen in forever, people are crying out for Naughton to go back to give us our best team!? Because the great saviour Josh Bruce will fill the void...

You're all MAD.

Leave the boy forward, play him like Wayne Carey for the rest of his career and find a new KPD.
We tripped over a gold nugget by accident in finding Naughton to be an even better KPF than the excellent KPD we knew he could be - Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[Unorth]

I think Naughton should stay a 'forward' but be given that Nick Riewoldt role of running wherever he needs to be to take marks (Which he kind of does already, but obviously Riewoldt's fitness/gut running was another defining trait that Naughts will have to work towards). He wouldn't have to be shackled to an opposition player in defense - his biggest strength is his athleticism/marking, let him showcase that around the entire ground.

His goalkicking is suspect right now but it's his first season as a forward, and that call seemed to happen late into preseason; let him get some prolonged experience in the position and I think he'll kick bags more regularly.

Either way though it's very fortunate we have a player that's become the best contested mark in the game...In his second season. And he can play at an elite level at either end of the ground. Absolutely nuts. Kind of neat in a way that this is even an argument.

 

[Dogsman16]

The counter point is that we're an offensive team, but our major weakness this year was the amount of points we let through. We scored the third-most of any team over 22 rounds, but conceded the seventh-most points. If we can replicate our offensive output while holding steadier down back, we go a long way to being a much better side.

Now, it's entirely possible that moving Naughton out of the forward line will drop that offensive output to a disproportionate degree, and that's something worth considering - but if that is the case, we always possess the flexibility to make a change. I think, if someone like Bruce comes in the door, it's something worth trying.

If we get Bruce but miss Keath yeah I could certainly be swayed. But key defensive pairings are suited by the style that defenders play. Most have a shut down KPD and an Interceptor. I think its vital that you have this setup. A pairing of Naughton/Keath is heavily intercepting based. Neither of those players fill me confidence of playing head to head with a key forward. GWS have Davis as the lock down, Haynes as the interceptor, Rich - Astbury as the Lock down, Rance/Grimes intercepting. Coll - Roughead lock down, Moore Intercepting. Bris - Gardner lock down, Andrews Intercepting.

Moving Naughton back doesnt give us a lockdown player. All of what you and fronkalicious suggested both could be true. But i think your blunting the effectiveness of one of Naughton/Keath if one of them are required to play the lockdown role. And with Bruce and Naughton up forward you could actually reduce the likelyhood that he himself recieves the lockdown defender (which he does every week).

If we get Keath I think it effectively ends much thought of Naughton moving back. IMO Naughton's success up forward probably was a big factor as to why we locked at a specific intercepting defender in Keath.

Naughtons impact up forward is much much bigger than just the 30 goals he has kicked. His ability to bring the ball to ground and the amount of scoring chains he has been involved with is significant.

 

[Whoyagot]

It’s gross list management to pay anything upwards of $600,000 on potential alone and looking at martin that’s really all he’s got going for him. Looking at the stats he seems on the same level as McLean this year which is BOG average when you consider McLean has had his worst year since his draft year.

MTW is a proven match winner and beats Martin on just about every metric bar marking and I think we have strong enough marking options in our forward line already and need a zippy point of difference. (Remember Martin isn’t even fast) Big no from me unless we’re paying him far less then what’s been spoken about so far.

 

[BEaston]

Will be an interesting debate around his best position for sure.

I think if we could shore up the forward line with someone like Bruce, it's not the worst idea to send Naughton back. For what Bruce lacks aerially compared to Naughton, he'd make up for in goal accuracy.
The argument against would be; how much more development as a forward does Naughton have? Could he end up as 50+ goal forward and by moving him back, would you be robbing us of a player of that ilk?

 

[Dogsman16]

Will be an interesting debate around his best position for sure.

I think if we could shore up the forward line with someone like Bruce, it's not the worst idea to send Naughton back. For what Bruce lacks aerially compared to Naughton, he'd make up for in goal accuracy.
The argument against would be; how much more development as a forward does Naughton have? Could he end up as 50+ goal forward and by moving him back, would you be robbing us of a player of that ilk?

Bruce is great aerially. His midfield let’s him down.

Both Bruce and Naughton are top 5 contested marks in the comp.

 

[Hobdog]

I’ll follow GWS if our club goes anywhere near Jake Carlisle. Bloke is a deadset cancer.

You remember how no club (other than Essendon) wanted to touch Stringer? Think it’s fair to say that clubs will know more than even us supporters about how much trouble a player might or might not be.


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[dogspur]

Baffling that after so many years of being in the wilderness looking for a KPF and now Shaquille and Naughton are gelling together perfectly to give us the most potent forward line we've seen in forever, people are crying out for Naughton to go back to give us our best team!? Because the great saviour Josh Bruce will fill the void...

You're all MAD.

Leave the boy forward, play him like Wayne Carey for the rest of his career and find a new KPD.
We tripped over a gold nugget by accident in finding Naughton to be an even better KPF than the excellent KPD we knew he could be - Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Wrong.

 

[SharkMeister4]

If we get Bruce but miss Keath yeah I could certainly be swayed. But key defensive pairings are suited by the style that defenders play. Most have a shut down KPD and an Interceptor. I think its vital that you have this setup. A pairing of Naughton/Keath is heavily intercepting based. Neither of those players fill me confidence of playing head to head with a key forward. GWS have Davis as the lock down, Haynes as the interceptor, Rich - Astbury as the Lock down, Rance/Grimes intercepting. Coll - Roughead lock down, Moore Intercepting. Bris - Gardner lock down, Andrews Intercepting.

Moving Naughton back doesnt give us a lockdown player. All of what you and fronkalicious suggested both could be true. But i think your blunting the effectiveness of one of Naughton/Keath if one of them are required to play the lockdown role. And with Bruce and Naughton up forward you could actually reduce the likelyhood that he himself recieves the lockdown defender (which he does every week).

If we get Keath I think it effectively ends much thought of Naughton moving back. IMO Naughton's success up forward probably was a big factor as to why we locked at a specific intercepting defender in Keath.

Naughtons impact up forward is much much bigger than just the 30 goals he has kicked. His ability to bring the ball to ground and the amount of scoring chains he has been involved with is significant.

Just to support your point further, look at what happened to Lever when he first went to Melbourne, he was shit because he had always played as 3rd tall interceptor, not as 2nd tall lockdown

 

[bobs head soup]

When a teenager shows himself to be the #1 contested marking forward in the game on half a preseason's preparation as a forward, surely that's his spot

When he builds a chemistry with Schache and the mid-sized forwards that sees us come from nowhere to be the #1 scoring team in the comp over the back half of the year, why change the central cog of that chemistry?

We've got Lewis Young developing beautifully to be the key intercept defender, Trengove ok for the gorillas, Cordy, Wood, Lachlan Young and Khamis for support/depth and reportedly a very good kpd as a possible signing in Keath

All in all I reckon it would take a big turn of events next year for Naughton's major value in our team to be deemed by our coaching group as a kpd.

 

[Mofra]

We've got Lewis Young developing beautifully to be the key intercept defender, Trengove ok for the gorillas, Cordy, Wood, Lachlan Young and Khamis for support/depth and reportedly a very good kpd as a possible signing in Keath

The three bolded aren't KPDs, but intercepting mid sizers.
We need another genuine KPD as Lewie Young just isn't ready yet and Trengove also happens to be our ruck back up. The number of decent unsigned KPDs AFL-wide is dwindling.

 

[bobs head soup]

The three bolded aren't KPDs, but intercepting mid sizers.
We need another genuine KPD as Lewie Young just isn't ready yet and Trengove also happens to be our ruck back up. The number of decent unsigned KPDs AFL-wide is dwindling.

Yep. I listed them as support. I would argue our key position/3rd tall stocks down back are better than forward, which is a reason (amongst others listed) why I still see Naughton's primary role as being a forward.

 

[Struggle]

Do we need a 3rd tall forward? We've looked lethal up there with 2 talls and a bunch of mid sized marking players. I don't want to slow down our forward line and clog more space for a bit of marking power when we are already near the top for marks inside 50.

Just focus on kpd and small forwards