Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I agree it seems fair

yeah, the girls should just suck it up.

They should just keep getting their asses kicked by a transgender team, and if they speak up about it or decide to stop playing and go to other female comps, you'd probably call them transphobic.

All you are doing is trading women's equality, with trans peoples.

Whilst a different situation we are heading down the reason why games like Rugby League and Rugby Union are dying in the ass in grass roots. Because parents don't want their kids playing against islander kids who are 2-3 times their size and why weight and height limits are now being introduced for juniors' grades.

Women are just going to stop playing sport if this crap keeps up. I don't blame em.

 

[Gralin]

yeah, the girls should just suck it up.

They should just keep getting their asses kicked by a transgender team, and if they speak up about it, you'd probably call them transphobic.

All you are doing is trading women's equality, with trans peoples.

It's not a transgender team the article said 5 trans women were part of the team.
There are 11 on the field and generally at least 3 subs
It's a team with some trans players

 

[HirdsTheWord]

It's not a transgender team the article said 5 trans women were part of the team.
There are 11 on the field and generally at least 3 subs
It's a team with some trans players

so, 1/3 of the teams is trans.

How much you want to bet who the top 5 goal scorers are?

 

[Gralin]

so, 1/3 of the teams is trans.

Assuming all 5 are playing yes
Did the article specify shutting beyond the team is successful and has trans players?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Assuming all 5 are playing yes
Did the article specify shutting beyond the team is successful and has trans players?

yeah, nah I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the 1/3 trans team is scoring at a rate of 19 goals to 1.

Just like I'm sure it's a coincidence that Lia Thomas wasn't even the top 5 male swimmers at UPENN, but then converts to being a female and wins a female national title within the space of 2 years.

its totally fair for women.....

jesus utter christ...

As far as female sports has come over the last 10 years, all you and others are doing is taking a giant shit on it.

 

[Gralin]

yeah, nah I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the 1/3 trans team is scoring at a rate of 19 goals to 1.

Just like I'm sure it's a coincidence that Lia Thomas wasn't even the top 5 male swimmers at UPENN, but then converts to being a female and wins a female national title within the space of 2 years.

its totally fair for women.....

jesus christ...

Did it specify anything beyond having trans players?
Did it do the trick we've seen recently where a non binary trans athlete who was AFAB was headlined on the assumption that they were AMAB?

Lia Thomas has been discussed and she was a top swimmer prior to starting her transition
Her final year on the mens team she was already taking hormones and her results that year are incorrectly used to suggest she wasn't a good swimmer pre transition

If you're going to do this you might want to do it accurately and not with already debunked stuff from a couple of years ago

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Did it specify anything beyond having trans players?
Did it do the trick we've seen recently where a non binary trans athlete who was AFAB was headlined on the assumption that they were AMAB?

Lia Thomas has been discussed and she was a top swimmer prior to starting her transition
Her final year on the mens team she was already taking hormones and her results that year are incorrectly used to suggest she wasn't a good swimmer pre transition

If you're going to do this you might want to do it accurately and not with already debunked stuff from a couple of years ago

I didn't say Thomas wasn't a good swimmer. if you are swimming for a US college, you are by definition a good swimmer.

I said they went being swimmer, who was losing comfortably to other men, to the number 1 college "female" swimmer in the country, in the space of 2 years. She literally beat a female Olympic silver medallist.

Thomas was clearly more successful AFTER transitioning.

you do the math why that would be.

 

[Gralin]

I didn't say Thomas wasn't a good swimmer. if you are swimming for a US college, you are by definition a good swimmer.

I said they went being swimmer, who was losing comfortably to other men, to the number 1 college "female" swimmer in the country, in the space of 2 years. She literally beat female Olympic silver medallists.

you do the math.

She was on hormones for two years before she was allowed to compete as a woman
I've done the math it's been discussed earlier in this thread or more likely the previous one.
She wasn't breaking records, she was good but prior to deciding to transition she was a top ranked mens swimmer as well

But I'll ask again does the article specify that the flying bats trans players are trans women or their best players?

Apart from the outrage generation potential (almost the same headlines 4 month's ago when they had a good preseason) why is anyone even aware of a local community sports league.

Are you a big fan of NSW local soccer?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

She was on hormones for two years before she was allowed to compete as a woman
I've done the math it's been discussed earlier in this thread or more likely the previous one.
She wasn't breaking records, she was good but prior to deciding to transition she was a top ranked mens swimmer as well

But I'll ask again does the article specify that the flying bats trans players are trans women or their best players?

Apart from the outrage generation potential (almost the same headlines 4 month's ago when they had a good preseason) why is anyone even aware of a local community sports league.

Are you a big fan of NSW local soccer?

Women’s team with five transgender players ‘broke opponent’s leg’ and had parents fearing for girls’ safety

A women’s football competition has been branded misogynist after it was won by a team featuring five transgender players, amid accusations one had broken an opponent’s leg in two places.

sports.yahoo.com

because women don't want to play in it.

this isn't some faux outrage thing guy.

Women either have a choice of playing in a bullshit unfair league, or being called discriminators if they choose not to play that team.

I'm not sure their league releases stats, but the fact their WPL team (with the trans in it) is scoring at a far exceeded rate to the other Flying Bats teams, as well as other teams in the WPL generally, suggests its not rocket science to understand this.

You ever heard the phrase where there's smoke theres probably a fire?

 

[Chief]

its sad i need to point it out to some.

There are constant examples of it. Non-stop.

 

[Gralin]

Women’s team with five transgender players ‘broke opponent’s leg’ and had parents fearing for girls’ safety

A women’s football competition has been branded misogynist after it was won by a team featuring five transgender players, amid accusations one had broken an opponent’s leg in two places.

sports.yahoo.com

because women don't want to play in it.

this isn't some faux outrage thing guy.

Women either have a choice of playing in a bullshit unfair league, or being called discriminators if they choose not to play that team.

I'm not sure their league releases stats, but the fact their WPL team (with the trans in it) is scoring at a far exceeded rate to the other Flying Bats teams, as well as other teams in the WPL generally, suggests its not rocket science to understand this.

See what I mean about women's team with five transgender players?

Look at who they are talking to for that article too

Kirralie Smith who pivoted from anti muslim to anti trans when she worked out there was more money in it

Libertarian John Ruddick who frequently rubs shoulders with actual neo nazis

Never mind the flying bats have fielded trans players for 20 odd years

Never mind this is community level sports which is about inclusion

Nah

 

[HirdsTheWord]

See what I mean about women's team with five transgender players?

Look at who they are talking to for that article too

Kirralie Smith who pivoted from anti muslim to anti trans when she worked out there was more money in it

Libertarian John Ruddick who frequently rubs shoulders with actual neo nazis

Never mind the flying bats have fielded trans players for 20 odd years

Never mind this is community level sports which is about inclusion

Nah

Yeah females should have their asses kicked in sport by a team full of trans people every week just because it makes people feel included.

Do they get a tax exemption on that charity?

All you are doing is weighing fairness for some, over fairness for others.

 

[Gralin]

Yeah females should have their asses kicked in sport by a team full of trans people every week just because it makes people feel included.

Do they get a tax exemption on that charity?

All you are doing is weighing fairness for some, over fairness for others.

Oh we're back to a team full of trans people again I see

You can't even argue your position from one of facts without hyperbole

 

[faible]

Oh we're back to a team full of trans people again I see

You can't even argue your position from one of facts without hyperbole

People would get a lot more credibility if they could at least stick to factual arguments on this topic, once it's clear they're simply anti-trans to begin with it's kind of difficult to have a discussion about it.

Do trans-women have an advantage in some sports? Maybe. We kind of know, we kind of don't. I suspect given kirsti's previous links of testing has found that lower body strength tends to end up about the same as a cis-woman, but from memory upper body strength remains higher, a sport like Swimming would be very different to a sports like Athletics.

 

[Gralin]

People would get a lot more credibility if they could at least stick to factual arguments on this topic, once it's clear they're simply anti-trans to begin with it's kind of difficult to have a discussion about it.

Do trans-women have an advantage in some sports? Maybe. We kind of know, we kind of don't. I suspect given kirsti's previous links of testing has found that lower body strength tends to end up about the same as a cis-woman, but from memory upper body strength remains higher, a sport like Swimming would be very different to a sports like Athletics.

You would think by now there is enough actual information out there to show that there is no one correct answer regarding performance.

There have been enough studies and examples in real life events of this.

Not every transition is the same, not every person is the same size or physical characteristics to begin with either

Size can be a disadvantage if you don't have the muscle mass to move those levers anymore

how often do you hear the term prototype in sports and the player ends up not being that good because there is more to it than just measuring physical maximums

The position that trans women always have an advantage is not realistic. The same can be said about never having an advantage.

For me the question becomes whether its a fair advantage or an unfair one where it does exist.

With cis athletes, especially men, unfair genetic advantages are celebrated, people that are just that much better than everyone else

With women that has always been a little murkier, especially with black women where there is a pretty long history in some circles in sport of accusing them of being men or not clean etc

The biggest issue I think for your average punter is the coverage of this, its so dishonest so frequently.

Losses are not reported on, or if they are, its in the context of not finishing last, ie they beat person xx who is a national champion (no mention of the 4 cis women who beat them both)

so if you just look at the outrage generating headlines you could really think there is a massive crisis in sports right now

never mind that there aren't any trans women competing at the olympics

there are trans men and I think a couple of non binary trans athletes including Nikki Hiltz

 

[ShanDog]

Not every transition is the same, not every person is the same size or physical characteristics to begin with either

Size can be a disadvantage if you don't have the muscle mass to move those levers anymore

how often do you hear the term prototype in sports and the player ends up not being that good because there is more to it than just measuring physical maximums

The position that trans women always have an advantage is not realistic. The same can be said about never having an advantage.

For me the question becomes whether its a fair advantage or an unfair one where it does exist.

With cis athletes, especially men, unfair genetic advantages are celebrated, people that are just that much better than everyone else

With women that has always been a little murkier, especially with black women where there is a pretty long history in some circles in sport of accusing them of being men or not clean etc

If we take all this as true, the only logical end is to say that all sports should be completely open to anyone, including people who take performance enhancing drugs.

You can have that opinion. But it's not one that the majority are going to agree with.

 

[Gralin]

If we take all this as true, the only logical end is to say that all sports should be completely open to anyone, including people who take performance enhancing drugs.

You can have that opinion. But it's not one that the majority are going to agree with.

How is the logical conclusion from what I wrote what you have written?

 

[ShanDog]

How is the logical conclusion from what I wrote what you have written?

You argued that there's no hard and fast rule about whether advantage or disadvantage may apply to a transwoman competing against females, as everyone has a different starting point, physical characteristics aren't the only determining factor for success, and there's inherent unfairness even within same sex categories due to genetics.

The "So what?" of those arguments is the inference that any line drawn to separate who can and can't compete - whether that line be based on sex, gender, or even some form of genetic profile - will always still result in an uneven playing field. And that begs the question about why we'd bother trying to maintain the facade of one with any form of restrictions on competing at all.

If you don't believe the above to be true, then there needs to be a circuit breaker in that line of thinking whereby a limit on who can compete is imposed on a competition despite the apparent arbitrariness of doing so. So where's your circuit breaker? Where do you draw those lines?

 

[Gralin]

You argued that there's no hard and fast rule about whether advantage or disadvantage may apply to a transwoman competing against females, as everyone has a different starting point, physical characteristics aren't the only determining factor for success, and there's inherent unfairness even within same sex categories due to genetics.

The "So what?" of those arguments is the inference that any line drawn to separate who can and can't compete - whether that line be based on sex, gender, or even some form of genetic profile - will always still result in an uneven playing field. And that begs the question about why we'd bother trying to maintain the facade of one with any form of restrictions on competing at all.

If you don't believe the above to be true, then there needs to be a circuit breaker in that line of thinking whereby a limit on who can compete is imposed on a competition despite the apparent arbitrariness of doing so. So where's your circuit breaker? Where do you draw those lines?

except nowhere did I say open it up and let people juice

so why is that where you went instead of actually addressing what I wrote?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Oh we're back to a team full of trans people again I see

You can't even argue your position from one of facts without hyperbole

1/3 of the team, by your own numbers.

that ticks the box for me to use the world "full of".

It's a term yeah? For example, your argument is full of shit, that's does not mean you personally have a larger bowel than most.

 

[ShanDog]

except nowhere did I say open it up and let people juice

so why is that where you went instead of actually addressing what I wrote?

**** me, it's an extension of the same principle or logic. Are you being dense on purpose to avoid the question or be annoying or something?

 

[Gralin]

**** me, it's an extension of the same principle or logic. Are you being dense on purpose to avoid the question or be annoying or something?

no I'm asking why you did the slippery slope extreme analogy route instead of discussing what I posted on its merits

all I said was that assuming there is always an advantage is as wrong as assuming there is never an advantage

that advantage is a pretty fundamental part of sport

and that deciding what counts as fair or unfair in this situation isn't easy because of the reality of sports and sports performance

 

[Gralin]

1/3 of the team, by your own numbers.

that ticks the box for me to use the world "full of".

It's a term yeah? For example, your argument is full of shit, that's does not mean you personally have a larger bowel than most.

no its not just a term, its a distortion of the truth to serve your purpose

 

[HirdsTheWord]

You would think by now there is enough actual information out there to show that there is no one correct answer regarding performance.

There have been enough studies and examples in real life events of this.

Not every transition is the same, not every person is the same size or physical characteristics to begin with either

Size can be a disadvantage if you don't have the muscle mass to move those levers anymore

how often do you hear the term prototype in sports and the player ends up not being that good because there is more to it than just measuring physical maximums

The position that trans women always have an advantage is not realistic. The same can be said about never having an advantage.

For me the question becomes whether its a fair advantage or an unfair one where it does exist.

With cis athletes, especially men, unfair genetic advantages are celebrated, people that are just that much better than everyone else

With women that has always been a little murkier, especially with black women where there is a pretty long history in some circles in sport of accusing them of being men or not clean etc

The biggest issue I think for your average punter is the coverage of this, its so dishonest so frequently.

Losses are not reported on, or if they are, its in the context of not finishing last, ie they beat person xx who is a national champion (no mention of the 4 cis women who beat them both)

so if you just look at the outrage generating headlines you could really think there is a massive crisis in sports right now

never mind that there aren't any trans women competing at the olympics

there are trans men and I think a couple of non binary trans athletes including Nikki Hiltz

Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male/nonbinary or whatever he/she/they feels each different day and is competing against other females at the Olympics. Is she not? If so, she is not going to have an outward advantage against other females as she is biologically a female. Any drugs she took to transition (i dont believe she actually takes any) would also be within the Olympic Guidelines. I doubt anyone really cares about this as there is zero advantages for her.

Thats entirely different to someone born a male competing against females. That is where we start to see these bullshit advantages take place.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

no its not just a term, its a distortion of the truth to serve your purpose

lol, you are surely taking the piss now.