Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gralin]

lol, you are surely taking the piss now.

you're the one arguing a third of a team is the full team

Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male and is competing against other females at the Olympics. Is she not? If so, she is not going to have an outward advantage against other females as she is biologically a female. Any drugs she took to transition would also be within the Olympic Guidelines. i doubt anyone really cares about this.

Thats entirely different to someone born a male competing against females. That is where we start to see these bullshit advantages take place.

Your description of Nikki Hiltz would be incorrect, they have not transitioned to male, they are a non binary athlete, this makes them a transgender athlete but not a trans man

recently the coverage of them making the US Womens team was based around trans athlete smashes record, people decided that meant they were a trans woman and started attacking them on social media as a cheating man

your second point is about as valid as your a third of the team means the full team posting

 

[MrKK]

Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male/nonbinary or whatever he/she/they feels each different day and is competing against other females at the Olympics. Is she not? If so, she is not going to have an outward advantage against other females as she is biologically a female. Any drugs she took to transition (i dont believe she actually takes any) would also be within the Olympic Guidelines. I doubt anyone really cares about this as there is zero advantages for her.

Thats entirely different to someone born a male competing against females. That is where we start to see these bullshit advantages take place.

AFAIK, Hiltz isn't transitioning at all. They have just identified as transgender.

Who is Nikki Hiltz, transgender and non-binary track star at Olympics?

Hiltz, who uses they/them pronouns, set a US trials record in the 1500m to earn a place on the Olympics team

www.independent.co.uk

 

[HirdsTheWord]

you're the one arguing a third of a team is the full team


Your description of Nikki Hiltz would be incorrect, they have not transitioned to male, they are a non binary athlete, this makes them a transgender athlete but not a trans man

recently the coverage of them making the US Womens team was based around trans athlete smashes record, people decided that meant they were a trans woman and started attacking them on social media as a cheating man

your second point is about as valid as your a third of the team means the full team posting

No.

I used the term full of. As in when someone calls you full of shit, they dont literally mean you have feces replacing your organs and muscles.

You are doing what most people do when their arguments suck, you are sidetracking the discussion into drivel.

RE Hiltz, the point is no one gives a shit if a biological female, on no drugs is competing with other biological females. The issue is when biological females, complete against biological males and then you stupidly try to argue there is no fairness issue to be had.

No drug in the world reverses biology to lower a males attributes to match those of a female, especially when you have passed through puberty.

 

[ShanDog]

no I'm asking why you did the slippery slope extreme analogy route instead of discussing what I posted on its merits

Because the consequences of these arguments is just as important as what you are saying in isolation. We are talking about hypothetical things here, I get that, but if they were to be implemented, they would affect people. So of course it's worth teasing out an argument to test it and determine its value.

all I said was that assuming there is always an advantage is as wrong as assuming there is never an advantage

that advantage is a pretty fundamental part of sport

and that deciding what counts as fair or unfair in this situation isn't easy because of the reality of sports and sports performance

For example, I might nitpick minor parts of what you said here but largely agree. Given that, how would you determine where those lines of fairness should be drawn? That's ultimately the point of the whole discussion about trans people in sport and why I teased out your arguments.

 

[ShanDog]

Why in the name of Mercury would a non-binary person be classed as trans? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Gralin]

Because the consequences of these arguments is just as important as what you are saying in isolation. We are talking about hypothetical things here, I get that, but if they were to be implemented, they would affect people. So of course it's worth teasing out an argument to test it and determine its value.


For example, I might nitpick minor parts of what you said here but largely agree. Given that, how would you determine where those lines of fairness should be drawn? That's ultimately the point of the whole discussion about trans people in sport and why I teased out your arguments.

but this is what I mean

going to an extreme of open sports with performance enhancing drugs is not teasing out where the line is, its going so far past the line as to make the entire discussion worthless

determining where those lines are isn't something we can do here though, its not a simple across the board line

non contact sports vs contact sports for example

community level, school level, state level, national, international, professional vs amateur, there are a lot of variables


lets just make it a free for all is not constructive

 

[Gralin]

Why in the name of Mercury would a non-binary person be classed as trans? That makes absolutely no sense.

because they are not cisgender

 

[Gralin]

again non binary people being trans is not a new concept just not well known by a lot of people

transgender is an umbrella term the same as cisgender is

 

[ShanDog]

because they are not cisgender

No wonder people were confused by the article mentioned earlier. The butchery of language here is of epic proportions.

 

[Gralin]

No wonder people were confused by the article mentioned earlier. The butchery of language here is of epic proportions.

It's not butchery of language

You're lack of knowledge is not what decides what correct terminology is

 

[Chief]

Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male/nonbinary or whatever he/she/they feels each different day

This is just ignorance, whether on purpose or actual ignorance, I don't know.

Please don't do this sort of thing again.

 

[ShanDog]

It's not butchery of language

You're lack of knowledge is not what decides what correct terminology is

Oooooh I've always wanted to do that too-online, smug "XYX expert here" post!



Ahem...



Hi, English teacher with minors in sociology here. The language is, in fact, a dog's breakfast. You need to DO clap emoji THE clap emoji WORK clap emoji and educate yourself. I suggest starting with the definition of the word binary, followed by consulting a site like www.etymonline.com to learn about the meaning of various prefixes and suffixes. You're welcome for my free emotional and educational labour, which I shouldn't have had to perform.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

This is just ignorance, whether on purpose or actual ignorance, I don't know.

Please don't do this sort of thing again.

how is it ignorant? She changes her identify based on how she feels each day.

These are Nikki Hultz exact words.

“The best way I can explain my gender is as fluid. Sometimes I wake up feeling like a powerful queen and other days I wake up feeling as if I’m just a guy being a dude, and other times I identify outside of the gender binary entirely. It’s complicated and complex and something I’m still trying to navigate myself, but I’ve decided it’s time to share my gender fluidity with you all.”

What exactly did i say that was ignorant? Seems pretty manner of fact to me?

Or did you not know her actual stance?

 

[Chief]

how is it ignorant? She changes her identify based on how she feels each day.

These are Nikki Hultz exact words.

“The best way I can explain my gender is as fluid. Sometimes I wake up feeling like a powerful queen and other days I wake up feeling as if I’m just a guy being a dude, and other times I identify outside of the gender binary entirely. It’s complicated and complex and something I’m still trying to navigate myself, but I’ve decided it’s time to share my gender fluidity with you all.”

What exactly did i say that was ignorant? Seems pretty manner of fact to me?

Or did you not know her actual stance?

Fair enough. Of course I assumed you were being a bigot, given your oft-repeated stance.

You are more woke than I!

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Fair enough. Of course I assumed you were being a bigot, given your oft-repeated stance.

You are more woke than I!

Cheers, but I highly doubt that.

The fact another mod blindly liked your post, when you were mistaken. Shows you the scoop around SRP forums.

 

[Gralin]

Cheers, but I highly doubt that.

The fact another mod blindly liked your post, when you were mistaken. Shows you the scoop around SRP forums.

You wrote
Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male/nonbinary or whatever he/she/they feels each different day

That is not the same as what they said.

They are non binary they didn't transition to male, they use they/them pronouns

Their gender identity isn't static and is still being explored but what you wrote isn't it

 

[HirdsTheWord]

You wrote
Nikki Hiltz was born a female who transitioned to male/nonbinary or whatever he/she/they feels each different day

That is not the same as what they said.

They are non binary they didn't transition to male, they use they/them pronouns

Their gender identity isn't static and is still being explored but what you wrote isn't it

I wrote exactly what Nikki said. I said male / NON BINARY OR whatever he/she/they feels each different day. Which by her own words is exactly what her view is.

you are just arguing to argue, cause every other point you have sucks.

You're the type of person who would be hit by a car, then argue it was actually an SUV.

 

[Gralin]

I wrote exactly what Nikki said. I said male / NON BINARY OR whatever he/she/they feels each different day. Which by her own words is exactly what her view is.

you are just arguing to argue, cause every other point you have sucks.

You're the type of person who would be hit by a car, then argue it was actually an SUV.

I'm the type of person who if I got hit by a car would say ow.

 

[Kram]

Women’s team with five transgender players ‘broke opponent’s leg’ and had parents fearing for girls’ safety

A women’s football competition has been branded misogynist after it was won by a team featuring five transgender players, amid accusations one had broken an opponent’s leg in two places.

sports.yahoo.com

because women don't want to play in it.

this isn't some faux outrage thing guy.

Women either have a choice of playing in a bullshit unfair league, or being called discriminators if they choose not to play that team.

I'm not sure their league releases stats, but the fact their WPL team (with the trans in it) is scoring at a far exceeded rate to the other Flying Bats teams, as well as other teams in the WPL generally, suggests its not rocket science to understand this.

You ever heard the phrase where there's smoke theres probably a fire?

The lack of concern for fairness for women and their safety on the sports field is scary.

 

[Chief]

Thank you for your input Senator Babet.

 

[Gralin]

Thank you for your input Senator Babet.

 

[Gough]

View attachment 2060134

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I thought it was Christians that invented both Demons and Satan?

 

[Gralin]

Clive Palmer sure does know how to pick them

 

[Festerz]

Clive Palmer sure does know how to pick them

I'm guessing he hasn't got a deep talent pool of candidates to choose from and the selection criteria empties the well out even further.