Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

lol someone should ask Homer why he likes to shit on people's identities while writing as Chip

XY women exist and have given birth

high school biology is not the real world and Chip loves pushing culture wars when it comes to trans people, Khelif isn't even trans or gender fluid so this article is largely just a hatchet job

Silly me to not realise the moment I post anything on a topic like this, that the Muppet wouldn’t immediately reply with a textbook Look Over There.

Signing out. There are so much better things to do with one’s life than keyboard wars.

(And mods, consider the possibility that one possible reason why people might sign out of BF is the troll-like behaviour of one of your own.)

Bye everyone. Be kind to one another. Close off your screens and get out in the real world.

 

[The Tilt]

"The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male."

 

[Gralin]

IOC statement is here

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

 

[Gralin]

Silly me to not realise the moment I post anything on a topic like this, that the Muppet wouldn’t immediately reply with a textbook Look Over There.

Signing out. There are so much better things to do with one’s life than keyboard wars.

(And mods, consider the possibility that one possible reason why people might sign out of BF is the troll-like behaviour of one of your own.)

Bye everyone. Be kind to one another. Close off your screens and get out in the real world.

Chip has been platforming anti trans voices for a couple of years now, he is in no way either impartial or an expert but he has gotten plenty of mileage out of stoking culture wars fires against trans people

if you think me posting XY women have given birth is trolling and that biology is more than the high school XX = female and XY = male then you probably should bow out

 

[ShanDog]

IOC statement is here

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

So the IOC basically uses the gender listed on an athlete's passport (which amounts to self-ID for some countries) as their gateway. They also claim there was some shenanigans in the IBA decision to ban the two boxers, but didn't mention anything about the testing the IBA say they've done. IOC also confirms there's no boxing regulator they use.

Going to be interesting to see what comes of it all because at this stage it is a they said/they said thing.

 

[Chief]

So the IOC basically uses the gender listed on an athlete's passport (which amounts to self-ID for some countries)

But not in this case.

Because it's not legal in that country.

So we have allll of this evidence but "she hit me really hard" is the deciding factor for a horde of Twix grifters.

Only one person here making claims without a source

"Gender-row boxer". Christ.

The Torygraph and the Sun are not sources. You should know that by now.

 

[Chief]

we've got someone who assigned female at birth, who went through puberty as a female, her passport says female, she's lived her whole life as a woman

"Protecting women."

 

[ShanDog]

But not in this case.

Because it's not legal in that country.

So we have allll of this evidence but "she hit me really hard" is the deciding factor for a horde of Twix grifters.

I think the IBA banning the boxer and saying they don't meet their criteria for being a female is probably what got people up in arms, but y'know, I'm just spitballing here.

 

[ShanDog]

"Protecting women."

Yeah, dig in further, more hand shandies and quoting each other with witty quips! Gotta circle the wagons when challenged!

 

[Chief]

I think the IBA banning the boxer and saying they don't meet their criteria for being a female is probably what got people up in arms, but y'know, I'm just spitballing here.

28 pages of reference material for you:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5ec29af1d3bf7f5d364bfc38/Algeria_SOGIE_CPIN_v3.0_May_2020.pdf

 

[ShanDog]

28 pages of reference material for you:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5ec29af1d3bf7f5d364bfc38/Algeria_SOGIE_CPIN_v3.0_May_2020.pdf

What is this, what am I looking for in 28 pages and how does it relate to the discussion? I don't click links from strange men

 

[Chief]

Yeah, dig in further, more hand shandies and quoting each other with witty quips! Gotta circle the wagons when challenged!

The transphobes bark about protecting women. Here is a woman being accused of dishonesty and pilloried online.

But no. One sports mob applied an arbitrary test and THAT is what the bigots anchor their disgusting little campaign on.

If punching power is the issue, have that standard for all boxers. Measure the force of their punch. Over a certain limit, they can't fight. "Anything that could damage another human" might be a good threshold.

 

[Chief]

What is this,

It's exactly what you asked for. Read, it my fellow human.

 

[spinynorman]

This isn’t a trans case and I think people saying they’re defending women by calling someone “trans” from a country where it is illegal to be transgender is a bit low. It’s possible to have a conversation about gender eligibility in sport without the hysteria from certain quarters.

Boxing should be banned, irrespective. And Carini should learn to keep her defensive hand up and not lead with her chin.

 

[ShanDog]

The transphobes bark about protecting women. Here is a woman being accused of dishonesty and pilloried online.

But no. One sports mob applied an arbitrary test and THAT is what the bigots anchor their disgusting little campaign on.

If punching power is the issue, have that standard for all boxers. Measure the force of their punch. Over a certain limit, they can't fight. "Anything that could damage another human" might be a good threshold.

There's some amazing mental gymnastics happening to produce this. It's a shame you couldn't enter the Olympics yourself with this form!

What makes you say the IBA tests are arbitrary?

Your punching power suggestion is silly and completely unworkable.

 

[ShanDog]

It's exactly what you asked for. Read, it my fellow human.

I didn't ask for anything

 

[Chief]

How is this tweet of any substance to the conversation? Who is this person? What is the source of their info? It's not even posted with comments.

"Here's a link."

I didn't ask for anything

You claim an intimate knowledge of the English language, yet you are unaware of the purpose of the question mark.

I must meditate on this.

 

[ShanDog]

"Here's a link."



You claim an intimate knowledge of the English language, yet you are unaware of the purpose of the question mark.

I must meditate on this.

We've replied to each other a number of times since then, and you provided no indication that your link was anything to do with that earlier conversation.
In fact, you supplied it as a reply to something else I had posted.
There was a clear break in the continuity of our conversation, punctuated by the fact that you have already replied to those questions I asked! And you expected me to connect back to five dots earlier with a simple link and a "Here ya go"?

D-
Work harder, and don't question the teacher.

 

[Gethelred]

This isn’t a trans case and I think people saying they’re defending women by calling someone “trans” from a country where it is illegal to be transgender is a bit low. It’s possible to have a conversation about gender eligibility in sport without the hysteria from certain quarters.

Boxing should be banned, irrespective. And Carini should learn to keep her defensive hand up and not lead with her chin.

But this is what happens when people attempt to ban trans women from competing in female competitions based on biological factors: a woman, who has lived her life as a cis-woman but has specific characteristics that cause her to register as intersex (or an XY female, in this case) is now being struck from competition due to attempts to exclude trans athletes.

In essence, she's the casualty of the whole shebang: a woman excluded for circumstances she did not choose.

It's interesting to me the tenor of conversation in this thread is so offensive (not 'to offend', but 'an offensive stance') from those whose position is that it's right to exclude trans people and she's a victim of that position: someone who is not trans being excluded because it's damn near impossible to exclude trans people without explicitly discriminating against them.

 

[Gethelred]

"The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male."

Carole Hooven: Why I Left Harvard

After I stated banal facts about human biology, I found myself caught in a DEI web, without the support to do the job I loved. The only way out was to leave it.

www.thefp.com

Carole Hooven is an evolutionary biologist, not a doctor or expert on trans medicine. She's also put her stake down firmly in the biological essentialist camp.

There's a lot of reasons why her analysis might be perfectly fine, but there's also reasons why it might be questionable.

 

[ShanDog]

But this is what happens when people attempt to ban trans women from competing in female competitions based on biological factors: a woman, who has lived her life as a cis-woman but has specific characteristics that cause her to register as intersex (or an XY female, in this case) is now being struck from competition due to attempts to exclude trans athletes.

In essence, she's the casualty of the whole shebang: a woman excluded for circumstances she did not choose.

If this person is in fact a male with a DSD, then none of this is accurate or applicable.

There's a lot of reasons why her analysis might be perfectly fine, but there's also reasons why it might be questionable.

The same can be said about doctors or an expert on trans medicine (whatever that is). Just say "I don't trust this person".

 

[Gethelred]

If this person is in fact a male with a DSD, then none of this is accurate or applicable.

Seeing as you don't know that, what is the point of asserting it given that you've already said it before?

The same can be said about doctors or an expert on trans medicine (whatever that is). Just say "I don't trust this person".

... hang on a minute.

If I go and find for myself - as countless muppets on this forum have in the past - a meteorologist who is willing to swear up and down that climate change science is all fraudulent or an accredited Jewish historian who wants to argue that the Holocaust never occurred, is it your position that those people should be trusted and/or their ideas promoted unchallenged purely because of their expertise in an adjacent field?

Would you trust an optometrist to operate on your heart, Shan? They're both biologists, no?

 

[ShanDog]

Seeing as you don't know that, what is the point of asserting it given that you've already said it before?

Because you wrote as though what you said was The Settled Truth. There's obviously a lot of doubt about that, so pointing it out bore repeating.

... hang on a minute.

If I go and find for myself - as countless muppets on this forum have in the past - a meteorologist who is willing to swear up and down that climate change science is all fraudulent or an accredited Jewish historian who wants to argue that the Holocaust never occurred, is it your position that those people should be trusted and/or their ideas promoted unchallenged purely because of their expertise in an adjacent field?

Would you trust an optometrist to operate on your heart, Shan? They're both biologists, no?

No, I didn't really articulate myself well. I'm saying that there are any number of reasons to cast doubt upon the ethos of someone commenting from a position of expertise on these issues, even doctors or trans healthcare people.

Given that gender, biology, ethics and sports are all intertwined topics in this issue, there's hardly reason to try and discredit someone directly involved in one of those fields except if they are saying something you don't like.

 

[Gethelred]

Because you wrote as though what you said was The Settled Truth. There's obviously a lot of doubt about that, so pointing it out bore repeating.

Not really. I've not delved into the science of it overmuch in my post. Just that this thing that is being done to her is being done in the name of excluding trans women when she is not a trans woman; she is the victim of your beliefs.

Genuine question: if she is found to be in a category you find biologically female, what will be your opinion of her having been barred from IBA competition? Do you find her to be a worthy sacrifice on the altar of fairness?

No, I didn't really articulate myself well. I'm saying that there are any number of reasons to cast doubt upon the ethos of someone commenting from a position of expertise on these issues, even doctors or trans healthcare people.

Given that gender, biology, ethics and sports are all intertwined topics in this issue, there's hardly reason to try and discredit someone directly involved in one of those fields except if they are saying something you don't like.

It is a bit akin to the the Liar Liar meme, "I object because it's devastating to my case!" isn't it?

But one of the problems a) with this conversation and b) with society in the Internet age is that false expertise is never more prevalent and that dishonesty is not met with adverse consequence. It's not a climate in which science is listened to.

The problem here specifically is that she is genuinely not an expert on intersex medicine/biology. She's an evolutionary biologist; at least, that was her gig at Harvard, and in the short span of trying to research her qualifications on who she was turned up little else. If her expertise was in sexual dimorphism within the human species I'd be completely okay with her being used as a source here, but it isn't and she's not.

 

[ShanDog]

Not really. I've not delved into the science of it overmuch in my post. Just that this thing that is being done to her is being done in the name of excluding trans women when she is not a trans woman; she is the victim of your beliefs.

In the post I quoted, you worked from an a priori position that it was unfair the Khelif was banned from boxing, and that she's female. My response was that we're yet to be sure of that. That's it, amd it's correct.

Genuine question: if she is found to be in a category you find biologically female, what will be your opinion of her having been barred from IBA competition? Do you find her to be a worthy sacrifice on the altar of fairness?

If she's female then of course she should be able to compete. It would be unjust for her not to.

The problem here specifically is that she is genuinely not an expert on intersex medicine/biology. She's an evolutionary biologist; at least, that was her gig at Harvard, and in the short span of trying to research her qualifications on who she was turned up little else. If her expertise was in sexual dimorphism within the human species I'd be completely okay with her being used as a source here, but it isn't and she's not.

Ok, the Harvard professor who wrote a book on testosterone difference in males and females doesn't measure up as a good enough source to take note of. Coolcoolcool