Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[BlueE]

Link was at the bottom of post...

Here it is again....

'This issue is not black and white': Australian boxing captain and coach disagree over gender eligibility decisions

Caitlin Parker says she believes the approval of two boxers at the Olympics who had failed gender eligibility tests is "incredibly dangerous", while coach Santiago Nieva says it's "not black and white".

www.abc.net.au

Yeah?


View attachment 2065761

Only one person here making claims without a source, but you could also go.

Olympics women's boxing: Italian abandons fight with Imane Khelif, who failed gender test

In one of the most shaming episodes in Olympic history, Italy’s Angela Carini was forced after only 46 seconds to abandon a fight against an Algerian boxer who had failed two sex tests, claiming she had been hit so hard by Imane Khelif that she feared for her life.

www.telegraph.co.uk

or maybe this

Moment boxer is punched by Olympic rival who previously failed gender test

FOOTAGE has emerged of gender-row boxer Imane Khelif landing a huge right hand that apparently broke Angela Carini’s nose and forced her to quit after 46 SECONDS. Italian star Carini, 25, too…

www.thesun.co.uk

Includes this, which sounds like an alias from a few in here.

 

[ZEV]

I do not see a link on this post. Yeah?

You quoted a different post. I'm not trying to argue. Just reading and trying to learn.

 

[BlueE]

I meant that (a DSD) was the most likely scenario, and specifically for Khelif.

They talk about it, but I'm not sure if it applies to either of the banned boxers.

They also mention if it was the case

The IOC now provides individual sporting bodies in every country with 'ten guiding principles' they can use to make their own policies.

This controversial document states that athletes with 'sex variations', another term for DSDs, have 'no presumption of advantage' and that they should be allowed to compete in the category of their gender identity.

There are exceptions, with framework stating that an 'evidence-based approach' can be used to exclude athletes who have a 'consistent unfair disproportionate advantage' or if there is an 'unpreventable risk' to the safety of other athletes.

However, some sport scientists say that, by themselves, these guidelines are wooly and open to interpretation.

 

[ShanDog]

They talk about it, but I'm not sure if it applies to either of the banned boxers.

They also mention if it was the case

The IOC now provides individual sporting bodies in every country with 'ten guiding principles' they can use to make their own policies.
This controversial document states that athletes with 'sex variations', another term for DSDs, have 'no presumption of advantage' and that they should be allowed to compete in the category of their gender identity.

There are exceptions, with framework stating that an 'evidence-based approach' can be used to exclude athletes who have a 'consistent unfair disproportionate advantage' or if there is an 'unpreventable risk' to the safety of other athletes.

However, some sport scientists say that, by themselves, these guidelines are wooly and open to interpretation.

No presumption of advantage? Most DSDs make little difference to the physical capabilities of the person with them and therefore the assumption should be the other way around as far as I understand it.

Regardless, given the discussion was that due to a medical issue, Khelif had abnormally high testosterone which has now been corrected, and the IBF have stated their test showed an XY chromosome, my money is on Khelif being a male with a DSD.

 

[BlueE]

No presumption of advantage? Most DSDs make little difference to the physical capabilities of the person with them. The assumption should be the other way around as far as I understand it.

Regardless, given the discussion was that due to a medical issue, Khelif had abnormally high testosterone which has now been corrected, and the IBF have stated their test showed an XY chromosome, my money is on a
Khelif being a male with a DSD.

I haven't seen any discussion that Khelif had abnormally high testosterone (for a female or male?) or that it was corrected, because they didn't have any testosterone testing for the Olympic boxing.

But sports scientist Professor Tucker, said the absence of clear policy by the IOC in this area had allowed this situation to occur.

'Last year [Khelif and Lin] did not meet eligibility requirements and the only reason they do now is the body that did rule them ineligible has been moved aside,' he said.

'It's due to a vacuum of policy, there's no policy now.'

Professor Tucker, who has studied transgender participation in sports, added: 'The IOC framework has 10 guiding principles and one of those is no presumption of advantage, and that you should prioritise inclusion.

'They say no testing should be done, they actively discount the influence of testosterone, they start from position of not assuming advantage, which I think is crazy, and they fundamentally push for inclusion.

Scientists weigh in on Olympics gender boxing controversy

Controversy erupted after it was revealed this week that two boxers blocked from entering a previous competition for 'having male sex chromosomes' would be allowed to compete.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Chief]

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So she has lost 9 fights previously?

 

[evolved2]

I haven't seen any discussion that Khelif had abnormally high testosterone (for a female or male?) or that it was corrected, because they didn't have any testosterone testing for the Olympic boxing.

But sports scientist Professor Tucker, said the absence of clear policy by the IOC in this area had allowed this situation to occur.

'Last year [Khelif and Lin] did not meet eligibility requirements and the only reason they do now is the body that did rule them ineligible has been moved aside,' he said.

'It's due to a vacuum of policy, there's no policy now.'

Professor Tucker, who has studied transgender participation in sports, added: 'The IOC framework has 10 guiding principles and one of those is no presumption of advantage, and that you should prioritise inclusion.

'They say no testing should be done, they actively discount the influence of testosterone, they start from position of not assuming advantage, which I think is crazy, and they fundamentally push for inclusion.

Scientists weigh in on Olympics gender boxing controversy

Controversy erupted after it was revealed this week that two boxers blocked from entering a previous competition for 'having male sex chromosomes' would be allowed to compete.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If inclusivity is prioritised over science, any ideology should be challenged.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Looks to me like a major issue in the Carini/Khelif case is the IOC abdicating its responsibility and trying to gaslight that everything is fine:

Even if you accept that gender is fluid, the rules of sport shouldn’t be

The IOC, having sleepwalked its Olympic boxing competition into a hot mess, is now seeking to convince us the rules of the sport are being followed.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Gralin]

lol someone should ask Homer why he likes to shit on people's identities while writing as Chip

XY women exist and have given birth

high school biology is not the real world and Chip loves pushing culture wars when it comes to trans people, Khelif isn't even trans or gender fluid so this article is largely just a hatchet job

 

[ShanDog]

How is this tweet of any substance to the conversation? Who is this person? What is the source of their info? It's not even posted with comments.

 

[Chief]

How is this tweet of any substance to the conversation? Who is this person? What is the source of their info? It's not even posted with comments.

Is any of it incorrect?

 

[ShanDog]

Is any of it incorrect?

Cool, new standard just dropped - posting a non-authoritive rando's tweet that supports your point of view on a subject is absolutely fine.

 

[Chief]

Cool, new standard just dropped - posting a non-authoritive rando's tweet that supports your point of view on a subject is absolutely fine.

I've been transed into a gish-galloper!

 

[Gralin]

I've been transed into a gish-galloper!

we're at this point

 

[ShanDog]

we're at this point

View attachment 2065918

Not to excuse KJK because she's a shitty human, but it's little wonder when we see this and are told we're terrible people for thinking it's not ok.



You don't think the path to this inevitably creates the KJKs of the world?

 

[Gough]

Not to excuse KJK because she's a shitty human, but it's little wonder when we see this and are told we're terrible people for thinking it's not ok.



You don't think the path to this inevitably creates the KJKs of the world?

You made me do this!!!!!!!!

 

[Gralin]

Not to excuse KJK because she's a shitty human, but it's little wonder when we see this and are told we're terrible people for thinking it's not ok.



You don't think the path to this inevitably creates the KJKs of the world?

but you are absolutely excusing her Shan

this is very much look what you made me do

its also I think backwards

Khelif competed at the last Olympics and the 2022 championships without issue

but now its an issue because some bigots have decided she's not female enough based on their hatred of trans people

 

[ShanDog]

but you are absolutely excusing her Shan

this is very much look what you made me do

its also I think backwards

Khelif competed at the last Olympics and the 2022 championships without issue

but now its an issue because some bigots have decided she's not female enough based on their hatred of trans people

I'm literally not excusing her, I'm trying to bring about a bit more of a meta conversation about this rather than being in the weeds of Khelif's medical status.

The fact you label anyone who sees an issue (or potential issue) with Khelif competing as a bigot says you aren't ready for it though.

 

[Gralin]

I'm literally not excusing her, I'm trying to bring about a bit more of a meta conversation about this rather than being in the weeds of Khelif's medical status.

The fact you label anyone who sees an issue (or potential issue) with Khelif competing as a bigot says you aren't ready for it though.

we've got someone who assigned female at birth, who went through puberty as a female, her passport says female, she's lived her whole life as a woman

she's competed as a woman without issue until the last 2 years as the antitrans movement has ramped up

and is now being attacked as a man as if she was a trans woman

how is this not related

 

[ShanDog]

we've got someone who assigned female at birth, who went through puberty as a female, her passport says female, she's lived her whole life as a woman

These "facts" (specifically, the all-important one about puberty) are now being challenged. A wise person would look at the info coming out and say, "Hmm, there might be more to this than previously thought" as opposed to just digging in to support their side.

 

[Gralin]

These "facts" (specifically, the all-important one about puberty) are now being challenged. A wise person would look at the info coming out and say, "Hmm, there might be more to this than previously thought" as opposed to just digging in to support their side.

Challenged where and how?

I've not seen you sitting back and waiting either when you strolled in and started calling her a biological male

 

[ShanDog]

Challenged where and how?

I've not seen you sitting back and waiting either when you strolled in and started calling her a biological male

I literally said it was my GUESS that Khelif has a DSD and is male, based on the information from the IBA (which is also the where and how answer to your question).

I didn't make any claims of particular knowledge of their medical issues or biological sex.

 

[Gralin]

I literally said it was my GUESS that Khelif has a DSD and is male, based on the information from the IBA (which is also the where and how answer to your question).

I didn't make any claims of particular knowledge of their medical issues or biological sex.

but again this ignores the fact that there are XY women and that its not as simple as XX or XY

so you're saying the IBA holds weight and the Olympics don't which sure looks like digging in for your side without waiting for more info to me

 

[ShanDog]

but again this ignores the fact that there are XY women and that its not as simple as XX or XY

So you're acknowledging that Khelif has an XY chromosome and therefore a DSD, but then ignoring the very real possibility that they are therefore male? Why?

so you're saying the IBA holds weight and the Olympics don't which sure looks like digging in for your side without waiting for more info to me

Pretty sure people posted articles about how the IOC has been... questionable... at the very least regarding their management of the boxing policies. And really, the only person who would argue the IOC is any more reputable than the IBA is someone who is on the take for the IOC, which would be some beautiful irony. They are both shitty organisations. But all we know at this stage is that the IBA say they've performed tests that showed Khelif was ineligible to fight as a female and didn't appeal it, and that the IOC has performed zero testing.

So based on that, who would be digging in more then?