Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[Gethelred]

In the post I quoted, you worked from an a priori position that it was unfair the Khelif was banned from boxing, and that she's female.

... just as you worked from the opposite position.

Again: neither of us know the science. This seems to be an exceedingly weird thing to object to.

My response was that we're yet to be sure of that. That's it, and it's correct.

Sure. Not sure why it's necessary to state the unstated, but sure.

If she's female then of course she should be able to compete. It would be unjust for her not to.

... which is an incomplete answer. I asked you how you would react if she wasn't allowed to compete based on rulings you support in principle.

Once upon a time, you'd have tried to answer the whole question. We mightn't have agreed at the end, but you'd have done your level best to try and explore where I was coming from. It's a bit sad that this is not the case anymore.

Ok, the Harvard professor

... of evolutionary science.

... who wrote a book on testosterone difference in males and females

... a field she is not an expert in, although it certainly borders on some of her later writings.

... doesn't measure up as a good enough source to take note of. Coolcoolcool

I've not read her book, nor have I read criticism of it. About all I've stated (and as far as I've gone) is that she is not an expert in human sexual dimorphism, and as such might be as completely trustworthy or just as incorrect as anyone posting in this thread.

Again, it's a bit sad to see you behaving like this. You'd have been one of the first to state that she's not necessarily an expert in what she's discussing a while ago. The post you're arguing with said this:

Carole Hooven: Why I Left Harvard

After I stated banal facts about human biology, I found myself caught in a DEI web, without the support to do the job I loved. The only way out was to leave it.

www.thefp.com

Carole Hooven is an evolutionary biologist, not a doctor or expert on trans medicine. She's also put her stake down firmly in the biological essentialist camp.

There's a lot of reasons why her analysis might be perfectly fine, but there's also reasons why it might be questionable.

... and I do not think that's an unreasonable position to take.

 

[The Tilt]

Carole Hooven: Why I Left Harvard

After I stated banal facts about human biology, I found myself caught in a DEI web, without the support to do the job I loved. The only way out was to leave it.

www.thefp.com

Carole Hooven is an evolutionary biologist, not a doctor or expert on trans medicine. She's also put her stake down firmly in the biological essentialist camp.

Sorry, why would she need to be a "doctor or expert trans medicine" to provide an explanation of the relevant DSDs?

 

[The Tilt]

Ok, the Harvard professor who wrote a book on testosterone difference in males and females doesn't measure up as a good enough source to take note of. Coolcoolcool

Correct. She a Bad Person.

 

[Gethelred]

Sorry, why would she need to be a "doctor or expert trans medicine" to provide an explanation of the relevant DSDs?

I've explained my position plenty in here. You're welcome to read the posts. What you're not welcome to do is...

Correct. She a Bad Person.

... strawman my position to the extent that this post does.

You want to take that one again?

 

[The Tilt]

I've explained my position plenty in here. You're welcome to read the posts. What you're not welcome to do is...

... strawman my position to the extent that this post does.

You want to take that one again?

Thanks. I'll pass on trawling through your previous posts. You've responded to a post explaining DSDs with a comment about how Hooven isn't an expert in trans medicine. That comment's obviously irrelevant; I'm afraid it won't gain relevance by me reading stuff you've said earlier.

 

[Gethelred]

Thanks. I'll pass on trawling through your previous posts. You've responded to a post explaining DSDs with a comment about how Hooven isn't an expert in trans medicine. That comment's obviously irrelevant; I'm afraid it won't gain relevance by me reading stuff you've said earlier.

We can do this one of two ways.

You can acknowledge that this is a discussion forum, in which there's give and take and people can disagree without behaving as though the person opposite them has nothing to contribute to the discussion, or I can remove you from a discussion you've decided you're above.

Up to you.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So this all stems from Russian telegram channels?

 

[Gralin]

Not even the hint of an issue at Tokyo

Tokyo 2020: Harrington guarantees medal with Khelif win

Kellie Harrington has guaranteed herself an Olympic lightweight medal after beating Algeria's Imane Khelif on a unanimous decision to win bronze.

www.rte.ie

 

[ShanDog]

... which is an incomplete answer. I asked you how you would react if she wasn't allowed to compete based on rulings you support in principle.

Once upon a time, you'd have tried to answer the whole question. We mightn't have agreed at the end, but you'd have done your level best to try and explore where I was coming from. It's a bit sad that this is not the case anymore.

Sorry, to complete the answer, I'd probably post here and say, "That sounds stupid. She's a female and should be able to compete" in much the same way I just said exactly that in my response.

You can drop the bullshit "You used to be cool" crap mate. Not only is it so petty and dumb, but I'm at work during the day and am splitting my time and concentration more than I should be already.

Or shit, perhaps the question wasn't interesting enough for me to do a close reading of. Whatever floats your boat.

might be as completely trustworthy or just as incorrect as anyone posting in this thread.

That's stupid. Objectively.

Again, it's a bit sad to see you behaving like this.

Again, don't do that. You should be better.

 

[ShanDog]

... just as you worked from the opposite position.

Again: neither of us know the science. This seems to be an exceedingly weird thing to object to.

You don't seem to be understanding.

Your post said Khelif was CATEGORICALLY banned from boxing by the IBA because of people's attitudes towards trans women.

Let me be clear: WE. DONT. KNOW. THAT. SHES. A. TRANS. WOMAN. That is what I said, and it was very much important to point out, because it was the crux of your soapbox criticism about "The state of things".

Or for even further clarification, if she'd be banned because she has the male physiological advantage, it would be for that reason alone, not because of a trans witch-hunt.

Are we clear yet?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Video footage of the IBA gender test 'expert'

 

[Gethelred]

Sorry, to complete the answer, I'd probably post here and say, "That sounds stupid. She's a female and should be able to compete" in much the same way I just said exactly that in my response.

You can drop the bullshit "You used to be cool" crap mate. Not only is it so petty and dumb, but I'm at work during the day and am splitting my time and concentration more than I should be already.

The problem of lesser discourse affects everyone, including you. Part of this gig is attempting to improve the discourse.

Over the course of this conversation, I've been willing to see things your way some. I've gone with you a few times, only to you accept those compromises as surrender and double down.

And that's sad.

If you do not like me pointing this out, that's not my problem.

Or shit, perhaps the question wasn't interesting enough for me to do a close reading of. Whatever floats your boat.

... speaking of petty.

That's stupid. Objectively.

'I don't like something' is not objectively stupid.

Again, don't do that. You should be better.

You used to be better than this.

You're welcome to try putting me on ignore to pretend there isn't a past when you were capable of debating in good faith. But you can't.

 

[ShanDog]

The problem of lesser discourse affects everyone, including you. Part of this gig is attempting to improve the discourse.

Over the course of this conversation, I've been willing to see things your way some. I've gone with you a few times, only to you accept those compromises as surrender and double down.

And that's sad.

If you do not like me pointing this out, that's not my problem.

... speaking of petty.

'I don't like something' is not objectively stupid.

You used to be better than this.

You're welcome to try putting me on ignore to pretend there isn't a past when you were capable of debating in good faith. But you can't.

Yeah, you're coming off looking like the good guy here, for sure bud. Keep it up.

 

[MrKK]

The problem of lesser discourse affects everyone, including you. Part of this gig is attempting to improve the discourse.

Ouch, tough gig. You must die a little inside every time GP posts anything.

 

[Gethelred]

Ouch, tough gig. You must die a little inside every time GP posts anything.

Stay on topic, please.

 

[kirsti]

The only Trans woman in Paris


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[BlueE]

"Gender-row boxer". Christ.

The Torygraph and the Sun are not sources. You should know that by now.

Asking for a source when you were already given the ABC report.

Usual playbook where you say the site quoted is alt-roght or something similar so you can dismiss it.

 

[stax on the mull]

I have a hard and fast rule to never put money on an Italian female boxer if she doesn't have any hair on her upper lip.

Gamble responsibly.

 

[barreness]

So seems gender is a bit of a spectrum

Is she xy, high test, thick wrists? idk, does anyone have her results?

Giving up after one punch seems a bit soft, can see why these transvestigators ark up about it. Everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face..........

 

[Chief]

So we all understand that the Algerian boxer is not trans?

Born a female. Female reproductive system. Lived her entire life as a female. Lives in a country with laws against same sex relationships let alone any option to be officially recognised as transgender.

Not to mention having boxed for years with no issues raised.

We all get that now?

 

[Gough]

So we all understand that the Algerian boxer is not trans?

Born a female. Female reproductive system. Lived her entire life as a female. Lives in a country with laws against same sex relationships let alone any option to be officially recognised as transgender.

Not to mention having boxed for years with no issues raised.

We all get that now?

If some Giorgia Meloni clone hadn't spat the dummy because she was losing this would have gone completely unmarked by everyone.

 

[radiojake]

Got sent this by a friend

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Plot twist - the Italian boxer is a police officer.

 

[Gethelred]

The facts of that marry pretty well with the Wikipedia page, with a key difference: Wikipedia has references.

Imane Khelif - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[kirsti]

If some Giorgia Meloni clone hadn't spat the dummy because she was losing this would have gone completely unmarked by everyone.

There are no trans women athletes at the Paris Olympics.

So bigots manufactured them.

Opinion | There are no trans women at the Paris Olympics. So bigots manufactured them.

The true story is much more complex than can be explained clearly in a handful of rage tweets.

www.msnbc.com

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