Transgender - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[kirsti]

Trans Kids’ Healthcare: Are We Getting It Wrong? - Science Vs | Podcast on Spotify

We sort through the science including the CASS report with Professor Stephen Russell, Dr. Cal Horton, and Dr. Ada Cheung.

 

[kirsti]

Trans Women in Sport: What Does the Science Say?

Research suggests trans women have minimal to no performance advantage over cisgender women.

Authors: Dr Sav Zwickl,
Eli Ward-Smith &
A/Prof Ada Cheung

https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/trans-women-in-sport

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Trans Women in Sport: What Does the Science Say?

Research suggests trans women have minimal to no performance advantage over cisgender women.

Authors: Dr Sav Zwickl,
Eli Ward-Smith &
A/Prof Ada Cheung

https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/trans-women-in-sport

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

If the science is starting to come in, and come in on the side of trans inclusion, what does this mean for those aganist? Results are a trickle now, admittedly. But if future results are decidedly in favour of inclusion then what barriers can remain?

 

[Gralin]

If the science is starting to come in, and come in on the side of trans inclusion, what does this mean for those aganist? Results are a trickle now, admittedly. But if future results are decidedly in favour of inclusion then what barriers can remain?

They won't stop they'll deny the science like they do with everything else

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

They won't stop they'll deny the science like they do with everything else

Yeah but at least if that possibility bears out the very small ledge of plausibility that those opposed still have their heels on (is it fair? To everyone?) will be gone and only their own will hear those without a foothold or a handhold any longer.

 

[kirsti]

If the science is starting to come in, and come in on the side of trans inclusion, what does this mean for those aganist? Results are a trickle now, admittedly. But if future results are decidedly in favour of inclusion then what barriers can remain?

The trends overall remain the same in this research and all the existing literature; Harper J. (2015), Roberts TA, et al. (2020), Chiccarelli E, et al.(2022),that there is a reduction in physical performance in all outcome measures after feminising hormone therapy.

There is clearly a lot of work to be done to improve the inclusion of trans women (and all trans people) in sport, at both an elite and community level. In many respects, Australia is leading the way. For example, in addition to the Australian Human Rights Commission guidelines and the growing number of sports-specific trans inclusion policies, there are two national sporting inclusion programs designed to assist sporting organisations with the inclusion of people with diverse sexualities and gender -Pride in Sport and Proud To Play.

 

[Seeds]

If the science is starting to come in, and come in on the side of trans inclusion, what does this mean for those aganist? Results are a trickle now, admittedly. But if future results are decidedly in favour of inclusion then what barriers can remain?

If the science comes in then you change your view to match the science.

But other than the fitness aspect (which certainly warrants more investigation) the study highlights that advantage is only greatly reduced in many areas but not all areas.

The article states those advantages will be important in some sports but not others. Do we end up with a situation where transgender women athletes on GAHT are allowed to compete in some sports but not others? If that is what the science suggests would people be satisfied with that?

And it still doesnt solve the issue of trans people who identify as women but choose not to undergo GAHT. If the science suggests they should be excluded from womens sport (as this article itself would imply given it acknowledges advantages of trans women exist before they undergo GAHT) will people be satisfied with that?

 

[Gralin]

Yeah but at least if that possibility bears out the very small ledge of plausibility that those opposed still have their heels on (is it fair? To everyone?) will be gone and only their own will hear those without a foothold or a handhold any longer.

Again exactly like climate change that won't matter

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If the science comes in then you change your view to match the science.

But other than the fitness aspect (which certainly warrants more investigation) the study highlights that advantage is only greatly reduced in many areas but not all areas.

The article states those advantages will be important in some sports but not others. Do we end up with a situation where transgender women athletes on GAHT are allowed to compete in some sports but not others? If that is what the science suggests would people be satisfied with that?

And it still doesnt solve the issue of trans people who identify as women but choose not to undergo GAHT. If the science suggests they should be excluded from womens sport (as this article itself would imply given it acknowledges advantages of trans women exist before they undergo GAHT) will people be satisfied with that?

I for one would be satisfied if studies showed that such exclusions were warranted.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Again exactly like climate change that won't matter

Much like a climate-change-denying farmer will put their fingers in their ears after pulling the 'kubra down over their eyes as weather extremes turn their crops and livestock into ashes and dust or frostbitten husks the trans-exclusionist much like all who abhor the idea of our collective humanity will still have to deal with the continual advancement of said collective.

They'll cry out even as they die out.

 

[Blue1980]

Leaving the notion of gender aside for not, is this not true throughout most of the last 200 years?

Could a child born in England in the 1830's have imagined what the world would look like in 1850? They've possibly been sent to Australia, or to India, or to South Africa or Zimbabwe, or the Carribean. That same child born in 1899 has a dramatically different experience of the world; they've lived through sections of the Industrial Revolution, multiple continental wars, the end of slavery and the subsequent impact on world economics and/or imperialism. The rate of change has only ever gone up, too; life was different before and after WW1, and different again after WW2 no matter the side of the Iron Curtain you sat.

The 80's was as different an experience to the 60's as to almost be another world, and growing up alongside the internet is something that couldn't really be conceived of outside of speculative science fiction; the reality of it has yet to really impact us and we're already ushering a next generation of profound change with children for whom the internet has always existed.

The world changes and will continue to change. While I accept that people can chew gum and walk at the same time, why is gender the focus of consternation for that change, the bastion of the unacceptable?

I still don’t think we are going to have a super large percentage of trans or non binary people. Some of the fear mongers would lead you to think it was growing exponentially like 30-50% of kids today.

Sure there are more than a generation ago, but that’s because they are more free to be themselves than they were a generation ago.

 

[Gralin]

l

I still don’t think we are going to have a super large percentage of trans or non binary people. Some of the fear mongers would lead you to think it was growing exponentially like 30-50% of kids today.

Sure there are more than a generation ago, but that’s because they are more free to be themselves than they were a generation ago.

Like any other self reporting group if it becomes acceptable to be a member we'll see an increase to population norms

 

[BlueE]

Trans Women in Sport: What Does the Science Say?

Research suggests trans women have minimal to no performance advantage over cisgender women.

Authors: Dr Sav Zwickl,
Eli Ward-Smith &
A/Prof Ada Cheung

https://www.transresearch.org.au/post/trans-women-in-sport

Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Using exactly the same criteria, the same research suggests cis women have a performance advantage over cis men.

Posted by Shandog from the Economist "Research into trans medicine has been manipulated -court documents open a window into how this happens"

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[BlueE]

If the science is starting to come in, and come in on the side of trans inclusion, what does this mean for those aganist? Results are a trickle now, admittedly. But if future results are decidedly in favour of inclusion then what barriers can remain?

The science was looked at in detail in 2019 over five days of evidence heard the International Court of Arbitration in Sport (CAS) hearing on the eligibility of Castor Semenya in women's athletics. I've already posted some of the decision.

More peer reviewed evidence published in JAMA and other respected journals have supported this decision and informed many International Sporting Associations including World Athletics, World Swimming, World Rugby and the ICC on their eligibility criteria for women's sports.

Inclusion of trans athletes is discussed and specifically taken into account with an example of a non binary runner in the women's 800m final in Paris Olympics.

 

[BlueE]

A unique pseudo-eligibility analysis of longitudinal laboratory performance data from a trans female competitive cyclist.

Blair R. Hamilton, Ke Hu , Fergus Guppy, Yannis Pitsiladis, (2024)

limited evidence, suggests the trans athlete could compete equitably in elite cycling events within the F category after 1yr of GAHT.

A unique pseudo-eligibility analysis of longitudinal laboratory performance data from a transgender female competitive cyclist

Background and Aims The Union Cycliste Internationale has deemed transgender female athlete’s ineligible for the female category due to concerns about performance advantages. We conducted a follow-up analysis on laboratory-based performance indicators of sports performance using data from a...

www.degruyter.com

View attachment 2068056


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

The study of one transgender female athlete after one year of GHAT showed grip strength, countermovement jump and VO2max performance declined (-13%, -29% and -15% respectively).

However compared to cross-sectionally assessed cisgender women athletes, the transgender athlete still maintained an advantage in 54% of lab performance measure (i.e. hand grip, countermeasure jump, power and VO2max).

This 27 year old athlete was classified 'sub elite', being below cis male average in maxVO2, handgrip, CMJ in pretesting pretesting before hormone treatment.

 

[Gethelred]

BlueE, can you link to the studies, please?

 

[BlueE]

BlueE, can you link to the studies, please?

I'm replying to claims and the studies already linked by Kirsti.

A unique pseudo-eligibility analysis of longitudinal laboratory performance data from a transgender female competitive cyclist

Background and Aims The Union Cycliste Internationale has deemed transgender female athlete’s ineligible for the female category due to concerns about performance advantages. We conducted a follow-up analysis on laboratory-based performance indicators of sports performance using data from a...

www.degruyter.com

and the very misleading statement that "Research suggests trans women have minimal to no performance advantage over cisgender women." The above research also linked by Kristi in a longitudinal example says there is still an advantage of over 50% in four performance criteria after a year of GAHT in research I replied to and linked above.

The "literature review" link specifically show that criteria of maxVO2 (lean mass) transgender women have less aerobic capacity than cisgender women, but also so do cisgender men.

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

AbstractContext. The inclusion of transgender people in elite sport has been a topic of debate. This narrative review examines the impact of gender-affirmi

academic.oup.com

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The science was looked at in detail in 2019 over five days of evidence heard the International Court of Arbitration in Sport (CAS) hearing on the eligibility of Castor Semenya in women's athletics. I've already posted some of the decision.

More peer reviewed evidence published in JAMA and other respected journals have supported this decision and informed many International Sporting Associations including World Athletics, World Swimming, World Rugby and the ICC on their eligibility criteria for women's sports.

Inclusion of trans athletes is discussed and specifically taken into account with an example of a non binary runner in the women's 800m final in Paris Olympics.

The more studies that come in the more the different positions for and against can be clarified. They need to continue.

 

[Gethelred]

I'm replying to claims and the studies already linked by Kirsti.

A unique pseudo-eligibility analysis of longitudinal laboratory performance data from a transgender female competitive cyclist

Background and Aims The Union Cycliste Internationale has deemed transgender female athlete’s ineligible for the female category due to concerns about performance advantages. We conducted a follow-up analysis on laboratory-based performance indicators of sports performance using data from a...

www.degruyter.com

and the very misleading statement that "Research suggests trans women have minimal to no performance advantage over cisgender women." The above research also linked by Kristi in a longitudinal example says there is still an advantage of over 50% in four performance criteria after a year of GAHT in research I replied to and linked above.

The "literature review" link specifically show that criteria of maxVO2 (lean mass) transgender women have less aerobic capacity than cisgender women, but also so do cisgender men.

The Impact of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy on Physical Performance

AbstractContext. The inclusion of transgender people in elite sport has been a topic of debate. This narrative review examines the impact of gender-affirmi

academic.oup.com

View attachment 2125841

Thanks. Just, it's easier to know what you're talking about if you link to the studies you're discussing in your post.

 

[BlueE]

Thanks. Just, it's easier to know what you're talking about if you link to the studies you're discussing in your post.

I'm a bit surprised because the post I relied to with the link, had the facts I quoted in a very large infogram.

The fact that the athlete in one year longitudinal study with hormone treatment tested initially as a below average cis gender male was seen in the tables.

If the subject was an above average, excellent or elite male with a 10 to 15% decrease in performance criteria, then you'd expect the difference after a year on hormone treatment would be even larger.

 

[BlueE]

The more studies that come in the more the different positions for and against can be clarified. They need to continue.

There have already been excellent studies published in highly reputable peer reviewed publications that CAS used after extensively looking at information provided by both sides, in it's decision on Semenya in 2019.

While this was primarily a case on DSD, it was accepted by all and included in the deliberations that trans athletes would be included in the decision because of the performance link of testosterone and in particular the difference after male puberty.

From the decision that I'll go into more detail on later.

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-_redacted_-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

 

[BlueE]

 

[BlueE]

 

[BlueE]

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Thanks for that, BlueE. Puberty blockers used by emerging transgender athletes would probably negate the testosteronal advantage that is measured in current post-pubescent transgender people, would it not?

Reading through, the name (Professor) Lambelet Coleman stuck out for some reason. I googled and it turns out that some of her research had been profoundly misused by anti-trans conservatives in the U.S;

https://www.idahopress.com/eyeonboise/professor-whose-work-is-cited-in-hb-500a-the-transgender-athletes-bill-says-bill-misuses/article_0e800202-cac1-5721-a769-3268665316a8.html

Mar 19, 2020

A Duke University law professor whose work is quoted three times in HB 500a, the controversial transgender athletes bill, says the bill sponsors misused her research and she’s calling on Gov. Brad Little to veto the bill.

In a letter sent today to Little’s general counsel, Brian Wonderlich, Doriane Lambelet Coleman and Nancy Hogshead-Makar, CEO of Champion Women, an advocacy organization for girls and women in sports, wrote, “Idaho is misusing Professor Coleman’s scholarship in support of legislation that would bar all transgender women and girls from competing in school sports set aside for females. No other state has enacted such a flat prohibition against transgender athletes, and Idaho shouldn’t either...”

Here's a link to Idaho House Bill 500a (2020)

PDFs:

EDIT: Found a working link

And this in 2021 from North Carolina in the U.S

Duke students advocate for LGBTQ+ community in NC as lawmakers consider discriminatory bills

North Carolina has joined states across the country in considering bills that oppose LGBTQ+ rights, and Duke students are fighting against them.

www.dukechronicle.com

April 19, 2021

North Carolina has joined states across the country in considering bills that oppose LGBTQ+ rights, and Duke students are fighting against them—including pushing against one bill that cites research by a Duke Law professor.

Three bills recently introduced in the N.C. General Assembly deny LGBTQ+ people protection of their rights and access to public services. One, H.B. 358 or the “Save Women’s Sports Act,” would block transgender girls from participating in girls’ school sports teams.

Of the six academic and journalistic articles cited in H.B. 358, three are co-authored or authored by a Duke Law professor, Doriane Coleman. Coleman has publicly condemned the N.C. bill and other bills across the country for excluding transgender athletes from school sports and misusing her research.

The two other bills deny LGBTQ+ individuals’ access to health care. S.B. 514, the “Youth Health Protection Act,” would prevent people younger than 21 years old from having gender-affirming health care, and health-care providers would be able to refuse services to LGBTQ+ patients under S.B. 515, the “Health Care Heroes Conscience Protection Act...”

The wording of North Carolina's Bill is pretty much what the one in Idaho was

https://legiscan.com/NC/text/H358/id/2344771/North_Carolina-2021-H358-Amended.pdf