MRP / Trib. Tribunal Thread - rules and offences discombobulation

[philthy05]

Players brace for impact when they've lost control of their body into a contest. Look at Maynard last year, a classic case of "whoops i've gone in too hard here" and instinct takes over.

If you're going in so hard that instinct has to take over to protect you, outside of some wildly unforeseeable movement, getting pushed or being blindsided, none of which apply here, you're responsible for the outcome.

SPP is usually very good at this, he goes hard into contests every week and is usually elite at getting his body in the right position, and attacking and winning the footy. He's stuffed up this contest and concussed a bloke. It's weeks.

Rioli turns Keane in the tackle a fraction of a second before spp arrived.


Also, what’s the expectation here? That Powell pepper approach every contest at 40% speed in case something changes?

Is that only applied to Powell pepper or should butters slow down too?



This is a football collision where the unexpected happened and spp had 0.3 seconds to react to it.



There’s expectations here about how spp should approach and react that completely contradict the messaging every other week we don’t have a player in front of the tribunal.


Amon squibs contests

Butters is brave

Todd needs to learn how to protect himself

 

[JimmyBC]

I think people are going to have to accept players in the future will lightfoot into certain situations now, you'll have the odd incident because of the nature of the game but we are teaching caution now.

 

[Willsy10]

Definitely didn’t elect to bump, unless he was trying to bump Keane via rioli’s back which was facing him until just before the collision.

It was a brace, but still a suspension because he knocked him out.

Not sure how we argue it but I hope it’s only a couple. I don’t think it’s the type of action or incident that really warrants the lengthy suspension hyperbole.

I bet if it was nick daicos it would be a different conversation in the media, and that’s the frustrating thing.


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[Festerz]

Not sure how we argue it but I hope it’s only a couple.

I would think that if the MRO decision tomorrow is 2-3 matches we will accept the penalty given the outcome and the zeitgeist. We move on with gritted teeth.

But if it is 4 plus then I sure as hell hope we go out and hire the best barrister to point out the hypocrisy of the AFL and the flaws in their reasoning as per my previous posts. We hold them to account for their idiocy and inconsistency.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Well it has. But you clearly missed it.

So let me put it another way.

Here is the opening shot in the post I responded to. Willie Rioli commences his tackle on a guy who is much heavier and taller than he is. Keane is upright and the ball is above his head - putting it at about 210 cm high. Keane is looking to get the ball forward into attack and looking to his right for a target.


View attachment 1913321


Imagine you were SPP in that situation - you are more than a metre from the conflict. Your smaller team mate is clearly struggling to make his tackle stick and a handpass from Keane to his right resulting in a forward entry appears imminent. You have just commenced running and have less than a second to react whatever happens.

What would you do?

The collision with Keane occurs one second later during which time both Keane's head and the ball have dropped by more than a metre from where it was a second earlier.

Hint: there is no right answer here.

Oh yeah, SPP is just an innocent bystander, a total victim of circumstance here.

Come on.

What would I expect him to do? If he thinks his teammate needs help with the tackle, I'd expect him to be motioning to tackle. SPP is especially good at winning the ball in situations like this, but he didn't try to do that either. He went hard into the contest, found himself out of position and couldn't do anything but brace.

You still haven't answered my question! Where did SPP think he was going there? What was his thought process? Was he trying to hit the contest to knock the ball out? Assist in the tackle? Why did he go in that hard? Don't tell me that he didn't have time to think, he had full view of the contest and he's a very talented contested player. He enters contests with with enough care to avoid concussing blokes every week.

 

[Festerz]

You still haven't answered my question!

I have in great detail with pictures.

You just didn't like the answer.

 

[bomberclifford]

Players brace for impact when they've lost control of their body into a contest. Look at Maynard last year, a classic case of "whoops i've gone in too hard here" and instinct takes over.

If you're going in so hard that instinct has to take over to protect you, outside of some wildly unforeseeable movement, getting pushed or being blindsided, none of which apply here, you're responsible for the outcome.

SPP is usually very good at this, he goes hard into contests every week and is usually elite at getting his body in the right position, and attacking and winning the footy. He's stuffed up this contest and concussed a bloke. It's weeks.

Maynard didn't receive a suspension.

 

[glitch01]

Given the current environment SPP will get 2 or 3 matches off.
Hard to argue once it's verified the opponent has concussion.
Personally I thought there was no intent and it was an unfortunate football collision.

What disappoints me more is the number of our supporters here who want to denigrate SPP as dumb/stupid etc.
He plays hard and I don't really recall him blatantly trying to hurt anyone.
He attacks the ball hard, take that out of his game and he becomes another average/vanilla midfielder/flanker.
Many sit here and are quick to tag players as soft or timid but to call one of our most intense players who has improved significantly over the last few seasons "dumb" is a touch hypocritical.


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[El_Scorcho]

Rioli turns Keane in the tackle a fraction of a second before spp arrived.

So what happens here if the tackle doesn't spin? SPP just cannons into Rioli? SPP needs to be aware enough to avoid knocking someone out when entering a contest.

You're talking like the Rioli tackle was an unforeseeable action. It's simply not the case from where SPP was positioned.

Also, what’s the expectation here? That Powell pepper approach every contest at 40% speed in case something changes?

Is that only applied to Powell pepper or should butters slow down too?

Ridiculous. He should approach every contest in a way that takes care to ensure himself, his teammates and opponents are safe.

Every player does this at every contest, every game, every week.

This is a football collision where the unexpected happened and spp had 0.3 seconds to react to it.

This is just the Maynard defence. It was as bullshit then as it is here. "What can he do once he's in that position". The answer is don't get into these situations. SPP usually finds the line perfectly.

There’s expectations here about how spp should approach and react that completely contradict the messaging every other week we don’t have a player in front of the tribunal.

Amon squibs contests

Butters is brave

Todd needs to learn how to protect himself

The expectation on every player is that they take reasonable care to avoid injuring the other people on the field. Players could kill an opponent at every other contest if they wanted. They don't because they take more care than SPP did here.

 

[bomberclifford]

I can't believe we're talking a 3-4 match suspension for this.
Keane was swung around into Powel-Pepper.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Maynard didn't receive a suspension.

One of the worst tribunal decisions in memory and everyone knows it. Maynard's was comfortably worse than this, but it's the same principle.

 

[El_Scorcho]

I have in great detail with pictures.

You just didn't like the answer.

No, you haven't, you haven't said once what you think SPP was trying to do. You haven't provided a reasonable excuse for SPP to go into the contest that hard that he lost control and was forced to brace, you've just repeated over and over that it all happened in a second.

 

[It Just Is]

Oh yeah, SPP is just an innocent bystander, a total victim of circumstance here.

Come on.

What would I expect him to do? If he thinks his teammate needs help with the tackle, I'd expect him to be motioning to tackle. SPP is especially good at winning the ball in situations like this, but he didn't try to do that either. He went hard into the contest, found himself out of position and couldn't do anything but brace.

You still haven't answered my question! Where did SPP think he was going there? What was his thought process? Was he trying to hit the contest to knock the ball out? Assist in the tackle? Why did he go in that hard? Don't tell me that he didn't have time to think, he had full view of the contest and he's a very talented contested player. He enters contests with with enough care to avoid concussing blokes every week.

With 0.5 seconds til impact his body position looks more in position to tackle than bump to me…

 

[El_Scorcho]

I can't believe we're talking a 3-4 match suspension for this.
Keane was swung around into Powel-Pepper.

Keane is already spinning prior to Rioli grabbing him, he's raised his arms to avoid the tackle and is trying to get a handball out towards the broadcast side. Rioli changes his trajectory slightly but at that point SPP is making strong body contact regardless.

 

[El_Scorcho]

With 0.5 seconds til impact his body position looks more in position to tackle than bump to me…

That's certainly one interpretation, I don't think the footage supports that at all. His right arm is tucked into his side the entire time.

 

[Festerz]

No, you haven't, you haven't said once what you think SPP was trying to do. You haven't provided a reasonable excuse for SPP to go into the contest that hard that he lost control and was forced to brace, you've just repeated over and over that it all happened in a second.

I don't know what SPP was trying to do. Neither do you. I outlined the situation he faced. With pictures. And with a split second to respond.

But here's my guess (remember what I said in my earlier post that there is not right answer).

Time 18.44:

Rioli has initiated a tackle on a much taller and heaver opponent (Keane) who has raised the ball above his head to avoid the tackle. Keane's eyes are looking to his right and his right foot is motioning down and inwards to commence a clockwise spin to release the ball to a team mate. SPP is running into the contest.



Time: 18.44

Keane is mid-turn in his attempt to break the Rioli tackle. He has shifted approx a metre back and out from the point of the original contact with Rioli and has lowered both his hands to head level to commence a handball action to his right. SPP's has stopped his forward motion and is re-positioning his right foot to pivot right in line with the shift in the movement of Keane and the likely release of the ball. (the heavily condemned 'planting' motion FFS)




Time: 18:45


Keane has completed his turn and about to handball out to his right. SPP has now completely stopped his attack on the contest and is bracing for impact and to stop Keane's forward momentum. Note that SPP's shoulder is in line with Keane's shoulder/upper arm and nowhere near his head. SPP is actually dropping his body and lowering his right arm for the impact and the possibility of tackling Keane if he breaks the tackle. Contact is now a millisecond away.




All this took place in a second.

There is simply no way in hell that SPP was initiating or even anticipating a head high impact.

And it's why not one crows player remonstrated after the contact or the umpires made a report.

 

[philthy05]

So what happens here if the tackle doesn't spin? SPP just cannons into Rioli? SPP needs to be aware enough to avoid knocking someone out when entering a contest.

You're talking like the Rioli tackle was an unforeseeable action. It's simply not the case from where SPP was positioned.



Ridiculous. He should approach every contest in a way that takes care to ensure himself, his teammates and opponents are safe.

Every player does this at every contest, every game, every week.



This is just the Maynard defence. It was as bullshit then as it is here. "What can he do once he's in that position". The answer is don't get into these situations. SPP usually finds the line perfectly.



The expectation on every player is that they take reasonable care to avoid injuring the other people on the field. Players could kill an opponent at every other contest if they wanted. They don't because they take more care than SPP did here.

1. If Rioli doesn’t turn Keane into spp?

Spp doesn’t hit Keane high.

2. It’s not the tackle that was the issue, it was the spin of Keane into (and lowering).

Footballers aren’t machines processing every possible outcome in real time.

There’s never been any expectation on our footballers to pull up or slow down into a contest based on 1/1000 odds of something happening

Duty of care and just pulling out of contests because “what ifs” are not the same thing.

Of all the million comments on this forum about Zac butters last year, how many were “butters needs to pull his head in, he goes into contests too hard”?

Probably none.

Why are we applying hindsight “spp shouldnt be going into contests at speed / hard” while lauding butters for doing the same thing?

In your opinion is butters also doing the wrong thing and should be change his approach?

3. It’s not the Maynard defence and they’re completely different situations.

Maynard ran at a player and left the ground and jumped into him.

There was no circumstance like this one where a player was moved. The Maynard defence from the media / pies was he was making the contest.

 

[El_Scorcho]

There is simply no way in hell that SPP was initiating or even anticipating a head high impact.

I tend to agree, I think SPP was expecting and positioning to knock the ball out with a bump to the body. It's a tactic he uses regularly and he's usually pretty good at getting it right and winning the ball in the process, but on this occasion he's missed.

It becomes very difficult to defend at the tribunal because he's elected to make contact and ended up bumping a guy in the head and concussing him.

I don't think he'll be able to argue that the spin or the tackle changed the situation so significantly that his action was reasonable and he couldn't have foreseen the outcome, because the AFL have made it pretty clear that if you bump you're responsible for what happens (unless you play for a big Victorian club and a suspension would mean missing a GF).

I don't want SPP to stop being aggressive at the contest but if he's going to play like this he needs to be more careful than he was here. He is 99% of the time.

 

[JakeNeadeFan]

He's going to get suspended but I'm not sure why people are portraying him as the devil for what was literally a split second decision where he arguably got unlucky.

You are never going to remove incidents like this from the game.

 

[Festerz]

It becomes very difficult to defend at the tribunal because he's elected to make contact and ended up bumping a guy in the head and concussing him.

This is a contact game though.

Tackles and bumps are an integral part of our game. So we rightly need to focus on intent and opportunity to avoid high contact.

If the video evidence shows the intent was not to initiate high contact (and I think my video stills show that) and that the high contact was a consequence of a sequence of events leading up to the contact then why are we suspending players for something beyond their control?

Surely the real villain here is the (sometimes) violent contact nature of our game?

Suspending players for adhering to the rules of the game simply because we don't like the consequences of them doing just that is utter madness.

 

[El_Scorcho]

1. If Rioli doesn’t turn Keane into spp?

Spp doesn’t hit Keane high.

2. It’s not the tackle that was the issue, it was the spin of Keane into (and lowering).

Footballers aren’t machines processing every possible outcome in real time.

There’s never been any expectation on our footballers to pull up or slow down into a contest based on 1/1000 odds of something happening

Duty of care and just pulling out of contests because “what ifs” are not the same thing.

Of all the million comments on this forum about Zac butters last year, how many were “butters needs to pull his head in, he goes into contests too hard”?

Probably none.

Why are we applying hindsight “spp shouldnt be going into contests at speed / hard” while lauding butters for doing the same thing?

In your opinion is butters also doing the wrong thing and should be change his approach?

3. It’s not the Maynard defence and they’re completely different situations.

Maynard ran at a player and left the ground and jumped into him.

There was no circumstance like this one where a player was moved. The Maynard defence from the media / pies was he was making the contest.

1 & 2. SPP is hitting Keane regardless. The fact that it ended up being high was because SPP misread the situation. The spin was already happening before Rioli got there and Rioli was always going to tackle. It happened right in front of SPP. He wasn't blindsided, he wasn't pushed, he had a free run at a contest with full view of it.

It's not a 1/1000 chance of high contact, that's laughable. The head is right near the shoulder and it's a moving target.

This comparison you're doing with Butters is silly. Butters also had to reassess his approach after hitting Simpkin high in 2020 and getting 2 weeks. He's improved his ability to control his body to an almost freakish level and as such hasn't faced calls for suspension again. Butters is living proof that SPP can learn from this and avoid it happening again.

3. I was using Maynard in response to people saying that it was a split second decision to brace and he had no time to react. That's bullshit and misses the point, just like it did with the Maynard hit.

 

[Brian McGee]

I tend to agree, I think SPP was expecting and positioning to knock the ball out with a bump to the body. It's a tactic he uses regularly and he's usually pretty good at getting it right and winning the ball in the process, but on this occasion he's missed.

It becomes very difficult to defend at the tribunal because he's elected to make contact and ended up bumping a guy in the head and concussing him.

I don't think he'll be able to argue that the spin or the tackle changed the situation so significantly that his action was reasonable and he couldn't have foreseen the outcome, because the AFL have made it pretty clear that if you bump you're responsible for what happens (unless you play for a big Victorian club and a suspension would mean missing a GF).

I don't want SPP to stop being aggressive at the contest but if he's going to play like this he needs to be more careful than he was here. He is 99% of the time.

Has he “elected to make contact” though? Or was contact heavily influenced by the actions of Rioli and Keane? That will be the argument.

 

[El_Scorcho]

This is a contact game though.

Tackles and bumps are an integral part of our game. So we rightly need to focus on intent and opportunity to avoid high contact.

If the video evidence shows the intent was not to initiate high contact (and I think my video stills show that) and that the high contact was a consequence of a sequence of events leading up to the contact then why are we suspending players for something beyond their control?

Surely the real villain here is the (sometimes) violent contact nature of our game?

Suspending players for adhering to the rules of the game simply because we don't like the consequences of them doing just that is utter madness.

You're basically describing the difference between careless and intentional on the matrix. This is a classic careless incident. Went in too hard, missed his target, accidentally got the guy in the head.

To get him off of a suspension, we're going to have to argue that SPP action wasn't careless. I'm not sure how we'd even start that argument. It was pretty clearly careless.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Has he “elected to make contact” though? Or was contact heavily influenced by the actions of Rioli and Keane? That will be the argument.

I don't see how we could argue that he didn't mean to make contact given the footage. He's moving directly towards the contest. Keane and Rioli don't move much in relation to SPP's line at all.

 

[Brian McGee]

I don't see how we could argue that he didn't mean to make contact given the footage. He's moving directly towards the contest. Keane and Rioli don't move much in relation to SPP's line at all.

Players don’t elect to bump players that are in the grip of a teammate because of the likelihood of hurting that team mate. Him choosing to bump a player being tackled makes no sense.