Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion

[simba_]

But you can't can you?

admit what?

 

[sr36]

Like you said it is crowds more than anything, then also playing on what is a pretty foreign ground for most non vic clubs and I know you guys keep saying it’s nothing but the travel has to have an efffect.
That two sides going into GF have such vastly different routines must mean something.
How much any or all if this is I don’t factually know as much as you guys keep asking for stats.
I just can’t see how any sensible person could think the VIC side is not at an advantage on GF day against a non VIC side.
It beggars belief mate the denial of this. Not necessarily by you mate.

In the US during COVID -Small sample size, but in NFL and NBA home ground advantage dropped off massively without the crowds. Suggesting it's the crowds far more than the travel.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Like you said it is crowds more than anything, then also playing on what is a pretty foreign ground for most non vic clubs and I know you guys keep saying it’s nothing but the travel has to have an efffect.
That two sides going into GF have such vastly different routines must mean something.
How much any or all if this is I don’t factually know as much as you guys keep asking for stats.
I just can’t see how any sensible person could think the VIC side is not at an advantage on GF day against a non VIC side.
It beggars belief mate the denial of this. Not necessarily by you mate.

Just Collingwood and Carlton home ground stats during VFL days, I use these as they were the biggest rivals in the VFL.

Collingwood at VP(Collingwoods home ground) won 75%
Collingwood at PP(Carltons home ground) won 33%

Carlton at PP won 71%
Carlton at VP won 37%

Make of that what you will, but those stats tell me home ground advantage was massive, without travel involved.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Just Collingwood and Carlton home ground stats during VFL days, I use these as they were the biggest rivals in the VFL.

Collingwood at VP(Collingwoods home ground) won 75%
Collingwood at PP(Carltons home ground) won 33%

Carlton at PP won 71%
Carlton at VP won 37%

Make of that what you will, but those stats tell me home ground advantage was massive, without travel involved.

I am agreeing with you. But surely without travel it’s those numbers then it surely ain’t coming down with travel we have in the modern game.
HGA has always been real. And it doesn’t disappear for certain games.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I am agreeing with you. But surely without travel it’s those numbers then it surely ain’t coming down with travel we have in the modern game.
HGA has always been real. And it doesn’t disappear for certain games.

What the point is, those stats show that travel is not why teams lose.

No-one is yet to show stats to prove the travel causes teams to lose, in fact since AFL, I think Collingwood now have a better away record, so maybe travel helps.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

What the point is, those stats show that travel is not why teams lose.

No-one is yet to show stats to prove the travel causes teams to lose, in fact since AFL, I think Collingwood now have a better away record, so maybe travel helps.

Mate I don’t know that answer, people in the system continue to say it is something.
From a personal point of view if I was playing this weekend at the mcg then I would prefer to live in Melbourne than to have to fly over to play. Not sure anyone would say they would prefer to fly 4.5 hours to play than not fly.
You keep asking for stats but fail to provide any yourself why travel is zero issue.
I don’t think you know the answer and neither do I.
I don’t really know if anyone within the system however that denies travel is a factor. If the people that are in the system and are the ones doing it say it’s a factor then why would I not believe them?

 

[Checksider]

Yes I agree. Your club arguably does get a bigger home ground advantage when it plays clubs from another state than my club gets when it plays a home games against fellow MCG tenants or home games at venues that aren't its home ground.

Thing is, there's no evidence that Victorian clubs get a net advantage over non-Victorian clubs. If anything it's the other way around. But that's a matter of geography, the number of clubs in each state etc. I'm not going to whinge infernally about that, and angrily demand unsporting concessions for the club I follow.
I guess we're different that way.

I’m not demanding any unsporting concessions, just that the Victorian clubs have their unsporting concessions removed.

For example, the GF is locked to your home ground regardless of what happens over the course of the preceding five months. This match decides the entire season.

That is a ridiculous policy for what is supposed to be a professional and top level league.

 

[Checksider]

Yep. Nba finals for instance runs at about 60% home team Vs 40% away team. Assuming a similar advantage and that approximately half the GFs should be Vic Vs Non-Vic. You'd expect home ground advantage to result in 1 extra gf being won by a Vic team every 20 years or so.

So for us supporters of Vic teams, who barrack for a team rather than for or against a state, that's going to work out at an extra premiership gifted for our team roughly once in every 200 years ... Same for non-Vic teams....

Oh and 10 million extra fans getting to watch the gf during that time. A lot more than that if talking about grounds smaller than Perth.

Even assuming that your numbers pulled out of thin air are correct, why should my team have to overcome a 60% to 40% disadvantage on Grand Final day against your team?

What the **** was the point of the previous five months of football, just to arrive at your home ground regardless of if we won every game and you just scraped into the 8?

It’s a complete joke.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Mate I don’t know that answer, people in the system continue to say it is something.
From a personal point of view if I was playing this weekend at the mcg then I would prefer to live in Melbourne than to have to fly over to play. Not sure anyone would say they would prefer to fly 4.5 hours to play than not fly.
You keep asking for stats but fail to provide any yourself why travel is zero issue.
I don’t think you know the answer and neither do I.
I don’t really know if anyone within the system however that denies travel is a factor. If the people that are in the system and are the ones doing it say it’s a factor then why would I not believe them?

I have provided stats, plenty of them, but i'm yet to see any the other way.

I just showed H&A VFL stats

Brownlow medals, why so many if travel hinders recovery, doesn't seem to affect them over a full season, otherwise I doubt there would be so many.
Pyke taking his players on a holiday to the Gold Coast tells me he doesn't think travel was going to do any harm.

Look, I would rather no travel, but I have yet to see anything to say it's as bad as what people make out it to be.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I have provided stats, plenty of them, but i'm yet to see any the other way.

I just showed H&A VFL stats

Brownlow medals, why so many if travel hinders recovery, doesn't seem to affect them over a full season, otherwise I doubt there would be so many.
Pyke taking his players on a holiday to the Gold Coast tells me he doesn't think travel was going to do any harm.

Look, I would rather no travel, but I have yet to see anything to say it's as bad as what people make out it to be.

Why is the trip called the tough trip to Perth? What about the statements like it’s hard to wi the week after the tough Perth trip. Why are these statements made if it’s nothing and it’s just like a 10 min trip in your car to the next suburb?
Anyway probs going around in circles and may always think a little different on this. I honestly don’t know the actual answer, I am going off only what I hear from within the system.

 

[sr36]

Even assuming that your numbers pulled out of thin air are correct, why should my team have to overcome a 60% to 40% disadvantage on Grand Final day against your team?

Because it's a 125 year tradition of the league that you joined. And most of the clubs in the league you have joined have embraced the tradition of an MCG Grand Final even though it was an away ground for them and a home ground for competitor(s).

Poor Adelaide have lost one grand final when it was a away ground for them and a home ground for their competitor (you would have lost that anywhere - tigers had gotten their game plan together and no one knew how to counter it). You might want to look up how many times Vic teams have lost MCG grand finals when their opponent has a home ground advantage. But all with no complaint.

 

[JackOutback]

What the point is, those stats show that travel is not why teams lose.

No-one is yet to show stats to prove the travel causes teams to lose, in fact since AFL, I think Collingwood now have a better away record, so maybe travel helps.

That’s not what your stats show. It shows that without travel, there is still a distinct home ground advantage. Travel may compound that disadvantage.

But there’s too many moving parts, such as quality of the teams from year to year, to be able to get an empirical view. Which is what you and others will use to deny the advantage. Or you could listen to the players and coaches who say unequivocally that travel makes winning more difficult.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Why is the trip called the tough trip to Perth? What about the statements like it’s hard to wi the week after the tough Perth trip. Why are these statements made if it’s nothing and it’s just like a 10 min trip in your car to the next suburb?
Anyway probs going around in circles and may always think a little different on this. I honestly don’t know the actual answer, I am going off only what I hear from within the system.

All your doing is giving opinions on what you have heard and believe, I have shown facts.

Ok, here is the Collingwood stats in Perth.
Subiaco 34% similar to PP
But Perth stadium is 59%
Flying? or stadium?

WC at Subiaco 68%
Perth 52%

These stats aren't saying travel loses matches.

 

[LoungeLizard]

That’s not what your stats show. It shows that without travel, there is still a distinct home ground advantage. Travel may compound that disadvantage.

But there’s too many moving parts, such as quality of the teams from year to year, to be able to get an empirical view. Which is what you and others will use to deny the advantage. Or you could listen to the players and coaches who say unequivocally that travel makes winning more difficult.

If it's unequivocally more difficult, then i'm sure you can find stats to back that up.

I'll wait.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

All your doing is giving opinions on what you have heard and believe, I have shown facts.

Ok, here is the Collingwood stats in Perth.
Subiaco 34% similar to PP
But Perth stadium is 59%
Flying? or stadium?

WC at Subiaco 68%
Perth 52%

These stats aren't saying travel loses matches.

What would the stat have to be to show you travel is a factor?

 

[Coolangatta]

What would the stat have to be to show you travel is a factor?

I would say interstate sides overall have a poorer away record against Victorian sides than Victorian sides do away against interstate sides. Even the best interstate sides probably only win about 50% of their away games. This seems to be particularly the case for the Queensland and WA sides who are further away.

 

[JackOutback]

If it's unequivocally more difficult, then i'm sure you can find stats to back that up.

I'll wait.

But there’s too many moving parts, such as quality of the teams from year to year, to be able to get an empirical view. Which is what you and others will use to deny the advantage.

We could listen to your misuse of statistics or we could listen to the people who have played the damn game and know what they are talking about.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

We could listen to your misuse of statistics or we could listen to the people who have played the damn game and know what they are talking about.

They apparently don’t know, we need to find people who know.

 

[sr36]

Why is the trip called the tough trip to Perth? What about the statements like it’s hard to wi the week after the tough Perth trip. Why are these statements made if it’s nothing and it’s just like a 10 min trip in your car to the next suburb?
Anyway probs going around in circles and may always think a little different on this. I honestly don’t know the actual answer, I am going off only what I hear from within the system.

Of course it's a disadvantage. And of course it's a disadvantage that the granny is at the MCG. But we've got the whole league only sooking about their disadvantages and ignoring their advantages

Being in Sleepy Hollow (Geelong) has always had disadvantages, until the Cats started looking at their advantages and have worked the hell out of them.

We've got 4 Northern clubs who have been given a very big recruiting advantage sooking about their diadvantages.

The WA teams who have been gifted a huge share of a big market of both fans and players and all the benefits of that are sooking about their disadvantages. Whilst knocking back an extra team in the state that would reduce their disadvantages.

The SA teams with an extra home game and short flights sooking about their disadvantages. Not to mention their cheaper housing making the salary cap go further.

The only teams with a right to feel they only have disadvantages are the smaller Dockland tenants.

We hear calls for a neutral grand final, why aren't these same teams calling for the neutral preliminary finals - like higher ranked Vic teams often have to play?

Are there calls to address situations like what happened in 2018 - Richmond finished top comfortably - their path to the granny was two neutral finals. WCE finished second - their path to the Granny was two Home ground advantage games - against teams facing the flight that is apparently a huge disadvantage. Similar situations happen most years. Should WCE have been forced to play those games at neutral venues to make the respective paths to the GF fair? Or ar we able to accept the rub of the green, the bounce of the ball or the umpires decision. We're clearly not.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Geelong have an advantage but not the other Victorian clubs because they don't have their own home ground.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Of course it's a disadvantage. And of course it's a disadvantage that the granny is at the MCG. But we've got the whole league only sooking about their disadvantages and ignoring their advantages

Being in Sleepy Hollow (Geelong) has always had disadvantages, until the Cats started looking at their advantages and have worked the hell out of them.

We've got 4 Northern clubs who have been given a very big recruiting advantage sooking about their diadvantages.

The WA teams who have been gifted a huge share of a big market of both fans and players and all the benefits of that are sooking about their disadvantages. Whilst knocking back an extra team in the state that would reduce their disadvantages.

The SA teams with an extra home game and short flights sooking about their disadvantages. Not to mention their cheaper housing making the salary cap go further.

The only teams with a right to feel they only have disadvantages are the smaller Dockland tenants.

We hear calls for a neutral grand final, why aren't these same teams calling for the neutral preliminary finals - like higher ranked Vic teams often have to play?

Are there calls to address situations like what happened in 2018 - Richmond finished top comfortably - their path to the granny was two neutral finals. WCE finished second - their path to the Granny was two Home ground advantage games - against teams facing the flight that is apparently a huge disadvantage. Similar situations happen most years. Should WCE have been forced to play those games at neutral venues to make the respective paths to the GF fair? Or ar we able to accept the rub of the green, the bounce of the ball or the umpires decision. We're clearly not.

There’s is much that could be done to make things fairer as you have pointed out.
And we do accept it right or wrong, doesn’t mean it can’t be pointed out or discussed however. We all know it’s nit going to change.
Footy fans can have their opinions on how it should be though. Just as you have done.

 

[sr36]

There’s is much that could be done to make things fairer as you have pointed out.
And we do accept it right or wrong, doesn’t mean it can’t be pointed out or discussed however. We all know it’s nit going to change.
Footy fans can have their opinions on how it should be though. Just as you have done.

When do you hear clubs or supporters talking up their advantages rather than bemoaning their disadvantages? Doesn't happen outside of Victoria.

I'll tell you when you do. When it's Craig Macrae talking - whose team are bloody good on the road. There are those who look for their advantages and those who look for their disadvantages and reinforce those disadvantages within the club. I know which group is going to win more often. Maybe even 15 out of 17 times.

 

[Checksider]

Because it's a 125 year tradition of the league that you joined.

So literally Vic bias. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

When do you hear clubs or supporters talking up their advantages rather than bemoaning their disadvantages? Doesn't happen outside of Victoria.

I'll tell you when you do. When it's Craig Macrae talking - whose team are bloody good on the road. There are those who look for their advantages and those who look for their disadvantages and reinforce those disadvantages within the club. I know which group is going to win more often. Maybe even 15 out of 17 times.

Good sides winning almost everywhere? That’s a new concept invented by the pies!!!

 

[LoungeLizard]

We could listen to your misuse of statistics or we could listen to the people who have played the damn game and know what they are talking about.

Do you mean like Don Pyke.
The bloke who played for WC and done shit loads of traveling.

The bloke that took Adelaide to the Gold Coast during finals, yeah he really thought traveling hurts.

Is this the bloke you listen to?