Voss on Fev/Brown - Yikes!

[chopperduck]

Weevil do you want to take this one ?

The main difference being....we aren't Freo ! We have a completely different list (to which you clearly know very little about, thinking we have such a weak defense). You Carlton Folk still seem to think that unless a midfielder was drafted pick #5 or above they aren't worth nothing.

Parrot, your comments on the QLD market are laughable at best. Im sorry, but continued on field success is going to be a lot better for the club then trading away our top players for some draft picks. We will be happy to rebuild during uncompromised drafts in a few years time after we remain around the top 4 more so than trade our good players and hover around 8th and rebuild during crappy drafting years. Also, once again for the deaf, the recycled players will help us get PAST the compromised drafts. What Malifice is suggesting has us drafting during the compromised drafts.

Im sorry Malifice, no matter how many times you say it, rebuilding the playing list is going to take more than 2 or 3 draft picks. Shows clearly why we have our current list managers employed, and you're here posting on an internet forum.

The way i see it, over the past few years we have lost pick 12 down to pick 27, then lost Hendo, a 10 odd game player and Wood, a QAFL ruckman and got Fev. Looking back, Gee we got a good deal. We got Fev for next to nothing, and we can still keep all our picks in the UNcompromised drafts !

 

[chopperduck]

You forget how diabolical our list (and financial situation) was circa 2002 onwards. We got into that position due to poor list management.

Im sure in a few years when this comes full circle and Black, Brown, Fevola, Power etc are all gone, and Brisbane plummet down the ladder (as you acknowledge they will) and Rich is running around in your midfield on his own drawing the number 1 tag, my argument above will make more sense.

Think your forgetting we dont have a diabolical list like Carlton circa 2002 or Freo. Im sure Rich will be happy running around with a few other of our promising youngsters, as well as a top pick or 2 in a few years time when he is at the ripe age of about 24.

 

[weevil]

Over the space of a few short years Fremantle traded 1st round draft picks for established players (Croad, Tarrant etc) and topped up with players from other clubs (Carr, Headland, McPharlin, Bell, Farmer, Solomon, Black etc) to make a run at a flag.

Over the space of a few short years Brisbane traded 1st round draft picks (plus Wood and Henderson who were both drafted with 1st rounders) for established players (Johnstone, Fevola, etc) and topped up with players from other clubs (Buchanan, Staker, Raines, Clarke, Patfull, Maguire etc) to make a run at a flag.

Its not perfect, and you could couter the above argument with an argument from a Saints persepctive (who look like they have recycled players well) but you can see at least a semblance of an analogy here right?

And of course even the Saints argument is a little flawed considering the large number of players picked up as 1st rounders/ PP (Reiwoldt, Kosi, Ball, Goddard, Clarke, Dal santo etc) that were an integral part of their side last year

It is a surface level only and based on misconceptions on your part.

Firstly you are trying to equate Fev with a player like Tarrent. Are you seriously trying to argue they are about the same quality of player??? They went for an inconsistent mid range forward we went for an out and out champion.

We gave up Wood for TJ. Wood was pick 18 in an average draft year, have you seen our ruck depth? He would be well down our pecking list, he knew it and that is why he was happy to go. TJ has been so-so, not a great pick in hindsight, but yeah hindsight is a truly wonderful thing isn’t it.

We topped up with Patfull??? He was a kid on the port rookie list, never played a game and was delisted. We picked him up with pick 56 and has been sensational. Swings and roundabouts with that hindsight thing.

Actually have a look at what we traded to get Buchanan, Staker, Raines and Clarke. Absolutely sweet FA. Look at the picks we had before the trading and the picks we had after. Outside the Fef deal the only difference was pick 60 and Dalziell, who was not even in our starting 22. You realise you are basing a large amount of your ‘trading away the future’ talk on pick 60 and a HBF with poor disposal.

All the players we traded for are at the crossroads. All of them would be high risk high reward if we had not payed so little for them. If 2 of them play to their potential and one of them goes okay then it is a massive win for us with very little lost.

We gave up Hendo and pick 12 for one of the best players in the comp and bugger all else for perhaps what turns into maybe 2 really good players.

2 good picks for a champion player is not selling your future out. What did you do to get Judd again?

No, I think someone at your club should manage the list a bit better.

And if by 'tank' you mean bottom out and be shit for a few years, isnt that exactly what you are advocating here?

You forget how diabolical our list (and financial situation) was circa 2002 onwards. We got into that position due to poor list management.

Im sure in a few years when this comes full circle and Black, Brown, Fevola, Power etc are all gone, and Brisbane plummet down the ladder (as you acknowledge they will) and Rich is running around in your midfield on his own drawing the number 1 tag, my argument above will make more sense.

All this says is that you don’t know much about our young midfielders.

 

[weevil]

Weevil do you want to take this one ?

Sigh...no midfield kids and weak defence calls...From people who clearly only saw 3 Brisbane games last year.

 

[Axel.]

What does that mean?

When his contract ended he looked around for a deal for more money.

So if we wanted to keep him, we'll have to pay him more.

 

[mediumsizered]

All this says is that you don’t know much about our young midfielders.

Yes we do. The Courier Mail ran a lovely fluff piece about Brisbane's midfield today. They lost me when they said that Buchanan would be playing through the midfield. Then they talked of Rischitelli, who apparently played well in patches (many Brisbane supporters questioned his ability when he was being touted as part of the Fev trade). After this they talked of "generation next" & then named Polkinghorne & Redden. Polkinghorne will probably do alright, he's got some talent, but if this is all the Lions have up their sleeve as "generation next" & in the meantime they are looking to someone like Buchanan to play in the midfield, something tells me trading away some early draft picks could really hurt in the coming years.

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Yes we do. The Courier Mail ran a lovely fluff piece about Brisbane's midfield today. They lost me when they said that Buchanan would be playing through the midfield. Then they talked of Rischitelli, who apparently played well in patches (many Brisbane supporters questioned his ability when he was being touted as part of the Fev trade). After this they talked of "generation next" & then named Polkinghorne & Redden. Polkinghorne will probably do alright, he's got some talent, but if this is all the Lions have up their sleeve as "generation next" & in the meantime they are looking to someone like Buchanan to play in the midfield, something tells me trading away some early draft picks could really hurt in the coming years.

^^Redden will be a gun.

 

[Hollow Knight]

^^Redden will be a gun.

I think so too. A lot to like about how he went about his first year.

 

[weevil]

What does that mean?

Bradshaw played silly buggers with us every time his contract was up for renegotiation. Always threatened to leave always got absolute top dollar. We had offered him a contract before this trading period which he refused to sign.

 

[weevil]

Yes we do. The Courier Mail ran a lovely fluff piece about Brisbane's midfield today.

I rest my case.

 

[weevil]

^^Redden will be a gun.

Ditto Bartlett

 

[mediumsizered]

Ditto Bartlett

So they're all going to be guns then. We may as well claim the same thing. Lucas, Davies, Kerr all guns. Robbo, Garlett, Yarran, Joseph, all guns (I haven't included Murphy, Gibbs or Kreuzer as it is fairly obvious already how good they are going to be). Grigg, Hampson, even Sauce & of course not forgetting Hendo. All are going to be guns.

 

[Dramoth]

Yes we do. The Courier Mail ran a lovely fluff piece about Brisbane's midfield today. They lost me when they said that Buchanan would be playing through the midfield. Then they talked of Rischitelli, who apparently played well in patches (many Brisbane supporters questioned his ability when he was being touted as part of the Fev trade). After this they talked of "generation next" & then named Polkinghorne & Redden. Polkinghorne will probably do alright, he's got some talent, but if this is all the Lions have up their sleeve as "generation next" & in the meantime they are looking to someone like Buchanan to play in the midfield, something tells me trading away some early draft picks could really hurt in the coming years.

yeah... my cousin has some talent dont know why the Dawks didnt get him really

 

[weevil]

So they're all going to be guns then. We may as well claim the same thing. Lucas, Davies, Kerr all guns. Robbo, Garlett, Yarran, Joseph, all guns (I haven't included Murphy, Gibbs or Kreuzer as it is fairly obvious already how good they are going to be). Grigg, Hampson, even Sauce & of course not forgetting Hendo. All are going to be guns.

Come off it mate, you want very promising young players but they have to have 5 years experience too? Please.

We can't draft experienced players because we apparently have no promising young players and our promising young players aren't any good because they have no experience.

 

[Jimthegreat]

One thousand posts on a trade involving Fev for Hendo and Lucas when it was actually Hendo and Lucas for Fev and Callum Bartlett.

Now if Hendo and Lucas have promise and we are all fair dinkum....Bartlett MUST be considered as a prospect

That's just the trade with us. You lost Bradshaw too, which, in itself, dilutes the Fev trade no end. You may well have p1ssed Rischitelli off enough to send him to the GC next year when his contract ends. I'm sure he worked that out when he rejected us.

At least Brisbane fans discuss things with more intelligence than other supporters, especially dopey Richmond ones. I like what Lions supporters have to say despite whether I agree with it or not. It's a fair dinkum discussion without the sh1t.

 

[Malifice]

It is a surface level only and based on misconceptions on your part.

FWIW Im not seriously sugesting Brisbane trading/ drafting 09 = Fremantles trading/drafting 01-03. Clearly Fremantle set the standard for trade blunders. You just argued that an analogy between the two wasnt possible.

Firstly you are trying to equate Fev with a player like Tarrent. Are you seriously trying to argue they are about the same quality of player??? They went for an inconsistent mid range forward we went for an out and out champion.

Its not his playing ability that I called into question. I am questioning the decison or Brisbane to deliberately forsake aquiring youth (in a team most recognise as needing youth badly) - and prior to years of compromised drafts.

IMO 5 years is too long a period to deny access to elite young talent (to a team with elite young talent in short supply) and it will create serious imbalances in your list in a few years time when it bites.

2 good picks for a champion player is not selling your future out. What did you do to get Judd again?

When we traded for Judd we were already stocked up on talented kids (Murphy, Gibbs, Kruezer, Walker etc).

Also remember Judd was 23 at the time. Not exactly selling our future short in the above example were we?

All this says is that you don’t know much about our young midfielders.

True, I dont see that many Brisbane games. But the general feeling I get around the traps is there is a fairly large drop away after Black, Power and Rich.

Shows clearly why we have our current list managers employed, and you're here posting on an internet forum.

No Im not a list manager. Im simply sharing an opinion on an internet forum (as are you).

And FWIW many pundits share the opinion that Voss rolled the dice on this one. Im actually interested to see how it turns out.

I predict not well.

I could be wrong of course.

 

[Axel.]

True, I dont see that many Brisbane games. But the general feeling I get around the traps is there is a fairly large drop away after Black, Power and Rich.

There is a gap no doubt, any of those 3 guys will probably be the best 2-3 in any team.

We do though have Redden, Polkinghorne, Adcock, Brennan and Sherman which is decent support for those guys. And even Clark plays as a midfielder.

We also have Bartlett, Harwood and Banfield who can be anything.

 

[chopperduck]

None of us deny that there is a gap. The point is we couldn't have filled that gap by drafting extra 18 year olds this year. You have to remember, players like Buchanon, who probably will spend time through the middle, weren't traded in to be a elite top level players. Obviously he isn't a gun player, we only want him to be servicable for a while. Even when Black and Power are gone we dont expect to rely on the likes of Buchanon and Staker to hold up our midfield. By the time they are gone, We should have some good players with Rich, Redden and Polka, maybe even Barlett. Not to say these guys are definite guns, but they look very good at the minute.

I think the problem here is our team needs are polar opposites, we have great older players, but no average middle age players to spread the load, where Carlton had a list of average players, and had to draft and trade in some top talent such as Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer and Judd to win the games. We have the top players, then we have 18 year olds who as talented as they are, just dont have the bodies yet. One on one around the ground, our skinny 18 year old will lose the contested ball to the 24 year old opponent (unless its the man-child Rich).

If we hadn't seen the likes of Austin, Redden, Polka, Sheldon, Hawksley last year, many of us would probably be a lot more worried and agree with you. I guess because we know our young guys better this is why we can't see the gap in talent you Carlton posters are forecasting.

We made the 8 last year with a very young team and a part time ruckman (we are lucky he just happened to hit AA form). This year with a full ruck divison to help Clark, Fev and a few bigger bodies to help around the ground in the one on ones, we should be pushing top 4 for the next few years. This on field success will help our club financially when GC comes in next year. Again a better option than slipping down the ladder and rebuilding while the GC builds and gets the better draft picks.

It woudl be foolish for us to try and trade in talent after Black and Power have gone to keep us up. We just dont want to be down while we wont get the decent draft picks.

 

[HBF]

Reading through the past few posts, I get the feeling that Brisbane posters appear to believe that every single player they have drafted in the past few years will be a gun. Fair enough on Rich, and Mitch Clarke had a breakout year in 2010, but really, Brisbane still rely very much on Black, Power, Brown and now Fevola.

To suggest someone like a Redden and a Bartlett will be a gun is just silly. They may very well get to that level, but on what I have seen of Redden, he's just a good honest young player. Hell, Bartlett hasn't even played a game of AFL footy, and was injured for most of the 2009 season. C'mon guys, a bit or a reality check please.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Reading through the past few posts, I get the feeling that Brisbane posters appear to believe that every single player they have drafted in the past few years will be a gun. Fair enough on Rich, and Mitch Clarke had a breakout year in 2010, but really, Brisbane still rely very much on Black, Power, Brown and now Fevola.

To suggest someone like a Redden and a Bartlett will be a gun is just silly. They may very well get to that level, but on what I have seen of Redden, he's just a good honest young player. Hell, Bartlett hasn't even played a game of AFL footy, and was injured for most of the 2009 season. C'mon guys, a bit or a reality check please.

Don't be ridiculous. Trying to paint the opposition argument as extreme is a pretty desperate measure.

If you think that it was just Brown, Black and Bradshaw that got us over the line in that final against you, you aren't looking deep enough.

Kids like Austin, Redden, Sheldon, Hawksley, Polkinghorne and of course Rich all made vital plays in that fourth quarter that were just as decisive. You probably didn't notice because it wasn't in your interest to notice. Clearly every team needs star players (and we are going to see in rounds 1-3 just how important Fev and Judd have been to your team) but if you think that 3 blokes, even ones as good as Brown, Black and Bradshaw can carry an entire team, you are kidding yourself.

It seems that the Carlton perception is that Brisbane is incapable of improvement from within. I look forward to us surprising you again.

I can't help but once again think back to this time last year where every man and his dog were lining up to pot Voss before he'd couched a senior game. "He hasn't done an apprenticeship, and will be a cluster**** on gameday". Now no one is saying that. I suspect he is the kind of guy who is used to proving people wrong.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Lucas will be a gun!

 

[Bluebear]

Great clubman, always shopped us, backs no good - ask your medicos

What happened between mid September and the Trade week?

Nothing? .........so you are referring to the issue he has carried for a number of years that affects his hammies.........well if playing 16-18 games and kicking 65+ goals with the efficiency he does is what you get with a "bad back" then bring it on.

If you think that it was just Brown, Black and Bradshaw that got us over the line in that final against you, you aren't looking deep enough.

You're right.
The inability of our...I mean your er.......Fev to chase his man cost us bigtime. Fev admitted afterwards that at 3/4 time he was thinking about playing the Bulldogs.........enojy.
The inability of Walker to concentrate for a full 4 Q's due to lack of match practice cost us bigtime. It allowed Rich off the leash at pivotal times and was decisive.

However, the single biggest thing that decided this match as opposed to when we beat you the previous times, was the absence of "Bradshaw's blanket" otherwise known as Jamison.

Jamison OWNS Bradshaw. If he is on the leash we win......again.

So don't overinflate the contribution these peripheral guys made to that win.

 

[juzza316]

The inability of Walker to concentrate for a full 4 Q's due to lack of match practice cost us bigtime. It allowed Rich off the leash at pivotal times and was decisive.

Can I ask what Walker's lack of match fitness has to due with his concentration?
I don't think the club would have blamed his match fitness when they were reportedly fuming at his final qtr effort.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

But is Henderson any good? I really like the look of him!

 

[Bluebear]

The inability of Walker to concentrate for a full 4 Q's due to lack of match practice cost us bigtime. It allowed Rich off the leash at pivotal times and was decisive.

Can I ask what Walker's lack of match fitness has to due with his concentration?
I don't think the club would have blamed his match fitness when they were reportedly fuming at his final qtr effort.

Match "practice" and "fitness" are two things.

You can get "fit" running around the boundary line and doing your repeat 400m sprints etc.

Concentrating on what you need to do, where you need to position yourself and how to go about your job is as much about practice and repetition as is running fast or kicking, but you can't really get it on the training track. It comes from playing and working hard week in and week out.

Walker has had almost 2 years out of the game save for the odd game here and there. He "switched off" for periods late in the game where a more hardened mind would have kept to the task.