Voss on Fev/Brown - Yikes!

[chopperduck]

Had to do without Merrett and Patfull for a few weeks at the same time in 09. Wasn't very fun, but i think most sides would struggle if you lost your FB and CHB at the same time. 2 players most likely to cover those spots last year were needed to ruck, Clark and Brennan. Hopefully with Bergs and Charmo fit we will be a lot more flexible.

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Had to do without Merrett and Patfull for a few weeks at the same time in 09. Wasn't very fun, but i think most sides would struggle if you lost your FB and CHB at the same time. 2 players most likely to cover those spots last year were needed to ruck, Clark and Brennan. Hopefully with Bergs and Charmo fit we will be a lot more flexible.

Yeah, like when we played Brisbane in the Elimination Final.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Yeah, like when we played Brisbane in the Elimination Final.

Yeah or like when we played you in Round 11.

 

[juzza316]

I don't see how you can say Fev is pushing 30 with only 2-3 good years left and then say look what an amazing player you lost in Bradshaw (who probably has a year left of good footy, and that's if his injury rumours aren't true).

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As other posters have suggested, the logical thing to do with Fev is give him the run of the forward line, rotating Brown in and out of the midfield to bolster it's ranks. He can captain more effectively in there too. That way, the opposition defence will always be having to account for him and he and Fev are unlikely to run into each other... (a dubious accusation anyway).

Brisbane's defence statistically was very good this year, so it will be an interesting season for them.

As for Hendo being denied a stellar spot at Brisbane for his development - well, really, how good is he going to be? We don't know. He hasn't done anything. He could be the next Sticks. Most likely he won't. A lot of promising young forwards are either average or go nowhere. Fevola's don't grow on trees. That's why you don't cough them up, unless you have to.

Personally I rate Voss highly. Don't forget he inherited the list that he began 2009 with and performed extremely well.

Expect fireworks.

You are clearly the most objective poster on our board. Even our mods can't take off their blue-tinted glasses off when trying to look at things realistically. It's good to see a refreshing change from some of the one-way bullshit that gets posted on here

 

[Sharks On A Plane]

Yeah or like when we played you in Round 11.

We lost our CHB in round 9 and our FB in round 15. They weren't available for selection as we built towards the business end of the year.

Patfull and Merrett missed four games each, from rounds 9-12.

I know which scenario I'd rather.

 

[Robbo's my hero]

I don't see how you can say Fev is pushing 30 with only 2-3 good years left and then say look what an amazing player you lost in Bradshaw (who probably has a year left of good footy, and that's if his injury rumours aren't true).

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As other posters have suggested, the logical thing to do with Fev is give him the run of the forward line, rotating Brown in and out of the midfield to bolster it's ranks. He can captain more effectively in there too. That way, the opposition defence will always be having to account for him and he and Fev are unlikely to run into each other... (a dubious accusation anyway).

Brisbane's defence statistically was very good this year, so it will be an interesting season for them.

As for Hendo being denied a stellar spot at Brisbane for his development - well, really, how good is he going to be? We don't know. He hasn't done anything. He could be the next Sticks. Most likely he won't. A lot of promising young forwards are either average or go nowhere. Fevola's don't grow on trees. That's why you don't cough them up, unless you have to.

Personally I rate Voss highly. Don't forget he inherited the list that he began 2009 with and performed extremely well.

Expect fireworks.

You've got to let it go.

All this arguing the toss is redundant.

Although...The Swans expect to get more than a good 12 months out of Brayshaw. He signed for three years.

Are you suggesting Brisbane become 'Fevolacentric' and forget about the value of its captain to the forward line.

How good was its defence? Where did it rank?

Hendo deserves a chance. Key forwards at Brisbane were not a weakness. He will not have that competition at Carlton.

The problem with Fev is, mentally, he's still swinging from the trees.

I rate Voss as having a super ego. He's taken a big gamble on Brisbane's future with the list development for this season. Carlton did similar things before 2002 and paid the price.

Expect fireworks. From who?

 

[mediumsizered]

You are clearly the most objective poster on our board. Even our mods can't take off their blue-tinted glasses off when trying to look at things realistically. It's good to see a refreshing change from some of the one-way bullshit that gets posted on here

Maybe you two should get a room & then you can share all your love for Fev & Vossy.

The day I take my "blue-tinted" glasses off is the day there becomes no point following the club. I think the other Mod you are also referring to in this thread would share a similar sentiment.

 

[chopperduck]

I rate Voss as having a super ego. He's taken a big gamble on Brisbane's future with the list development for this season. Carlton did similar things before 2002 and paid the price.

I still dont get how you Carlton folk think that we have lost our entire future losing Hendo and 1 draft pick. Because of our premiership years, there is a big gap of players on our list around the mid 20's. This is why our best mids are 30 and the rest are yet to prove themselves. How would we be better off staying around 6-10th on the ladder, playing some kids for 2 years until the likes of Black and Power are gone, then bottoming out during the compremised draft period.

Instead we have traded in a few players who have mature bodies, they aren't players that are going to win us games off their own boot, thats not why they were brought in. We got them so we dont have to play 6 18 year olds. Whilst some of our young players look good, their bodies just need another season or two to fill out.

We are much better off, trading in some mature bodies and having a shot in finals over the next 3-4 years while we still have Black and Power. Then if we bottom out after that, at least its after the compremised drafts and we actually get the high draft picks. We should get an extra season or two at least with Fev over Bradshaw.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

We are much better off, trading in some mature bodies and having a shot in finals over the next 3-4 years while we still have Black and Power. Then if we bottom out after that, at least its after the compremised drafts and we actually get the high draft picks. We should get an extra season or two at least with Fev over Bradshaw.

I'm not sure that it's after the compromised drafts? Don't GC pillage them for three years (starting last years draft - taking Toy, etc.) and then GWS get their own clean slate for three years?

 

[parrot]

.....Instead we have traded in a few players who have mature bodies, they aren't players that are going to win us games off their own boot, thats not why they were brought in. We got them so we dont have to play 6 18 year olds. Whilst some of our young ....

This guy sounds like a Richmond supporter from 12 months ago, telling us the virtues of trading away draft picks for recycled's like McMahon, Thompson etc, while having an aging core was actually a good thing. Well it wasn't. In fact it turned out to be a total disaster, and pushed that club into a ground-zero crisis. Brisbane supporters supreme confidence soon after acquiring Fev has been gradually eroded away bit by bit. Now there's growing concern over Vossy's Freo-like top up splurge. Vossy has rolled the dice by selling his Clubs future to push for a flag over the next 1-2 years max. If it fails, they won't be able to rebuild until after the compromised drafts i.e. in 5 years. By that time GC17 would have moved past them. Very high stakes. No wonder Lions supporters are getting a little edgy now. It's quite funny watching this unfold.

 

[Malifice]

I still dont get how you Carlton folk think that we have lost our entire future losing Hendo and 1 draft pick.

You effectively traded Kane Lucas and Henderson (likely 12+ year players and 200 gamers each) for Fevola who you will get around 5 years and around 80-100 games of service out of (maximum).

Fevola is a gun player no doubt, but you have clearly traded sustained future success for short term results.

To suggest otherwise is as blind as some of the Carlton posters suggesting Fev is 'done due to age.'

Because of our premiership years, there is a big gap of players on our list around the mid 20's. This is why our best mids are 30 and the rest are yet to prove themselves.

And how is this problem going to improve if you KEEP TRADING YOUR KIDS?

Surely the gap youve identified above just widens?

How would we be better off staying around 6-10th on the ladder, playing some kids for 2 years until the likes of Black and Power are gone, then bottoming out during the compremised draft period.

Or how about trading some of your established players for more low draft picks? Or using some of the extra money you guys get (and would save by trading said established player) to lure a young player north?

Instead we have traded in a few players who have mature bodies,

For kids... thats what you traded them for. Imagine if you did the above trade last year. No Rich. Think about it.

Fremantle went down this path remember. Howd it work for them?

they aren't players that are going to win us games off their own boot, thats not why they were brought in. We got them so we dont have to play 6 18 year olds.

Like Hawthorn did? And Carlton have just done. And Melbourne are completing soon? And (God help them) Richmond and North are embarking on?

Whilst some of our young players look good, their bodies just need another season or two to fill out.

Then bite the bullet.

We should get an extra season or two at least with Fev over Bradshaw.

Agreed. But is it worth it?

I think not. And I reckon you'll agree with me in @ 3 years time.

This guy sounds like a Richmond supporter from 12 months ago, telling us the virtues of trading away draft picks for recycled's like McMahon, Thompson etc, while having an aging core was actually a good thing.

Or Fremantle supporter from the past decade.

 

[HBF]

You are clearly the most objective poster on our board. Even our mods can't take off their blue-tinted glasses off when trying to look at things realistically. It's good to see a refreshing change from some of the one-way bullshit that gets posted on here

Obviously I look at things through blue-tinted glasses, but also think I am pretty realistic in my assesment of where we are going into season 2010. Of course we are going to be weaker without Fevola, but you also have to think that forward don't have a very long life span past 30 years old. You only have to look at a host of FF's who tend to struggle when they get to this age. And Fev has just turned 29.

Of course Brisbane will be stronger next year, but they are putting a fair bit of trust in a guy that hasn't played for 3 years. I would have thought had Maguire been right for AFL footy, why would the Saints delist him when they have just lost a key backmen in Hudgton.

Getting back to Fev, I always thought we'd be fortunate if we could get two more quality years out of him, given he would have turned 31 at the start of the 2012 season.

 

[Dramoth]

Obviously I look at things through blue-tinted glasses, but also think I am pretty realistic in my assesment of where we are going into season 2010. Of course we are going to be weaker without Fevola, but you also have to think that forward don't have a very long life span past 30 years old. You only have to look at a host of FF's who tend to struggle when they get to this age. And Fev has just turned 29.

Of course Brisbane will be stronger next year, but they are putting a fair bit of trust in a guy that hasn't played for 3 years. I would have thought had Maguire been right for AFL footy, why would the Saints delist him when they have just lost a key backmen in Hudgton.

Getting back to Fev, I always thought we'd be fortunate if we could get two more quality years out of him, given he would have turned 31 at the start of the 2012 season.

Funny, but a lot of us have been rabbiting on about 2012 being the real premiership window opening year. I would prefer to have out new look forward line get settled over the next 2 years and be ready to fire come 2012.

I am a lot happier with the structure of the club now without Fev because it also means that we hit our premiership window, we dont have an aging full forward who is slowing down and wont help us win #17.

 

[weevil]

You effectively traded Kane Lucas and Henderson (likely 12+ year players and 200 gamers each) for Fevola who you will get around 5 years and around 80-100 games of service out of (maximum).

Fevola is a gun player no doubt, but you have clearly traded sustained future success for short term results.

To suggest otherwise is as blind as some of the Carlton posters suggesting Fev is 'done due to age.'

This is very simplistic, you are not looking at this in terms of the structure of our list.

And how is this problem going to improve if you KEEP TRADING YOUR KIDS?

Surely the gap youve identified above just widens?

Who said we are going to keep on trading our kids? This was a very deliberate strategy based on our current list and the heavily compromised nature of the next few drafts.

For years we have traded players far, far less than other clubs. I think for the past half dozen years or so we have only ever had 1 player on the list who has played a game for another club. In a sense this season rebalanced this situation.[/quote]

Or how about trading some of your established players for more low draft picks? Or using some of the extra money you guys get (and would save by trading said established player) to lure a young player north?

Doing this would not give us a realistic shot at a flag within the foreseeable future, our current strategy does. It will not work for every club in every situation but it makes sense in context of our list.

For kids... thats what you traded them for. Imagine if you did the above trade last year. No Rich. Think about it.

Rich and some of the other young players we picked up last year are part of the reason we did this. It would not have made sense for us to do this last year, but it does this year. Again it is too simplistic to pretend we are going to follow this pattern every draft or to pretend that every club should follow the same draft strategy every year no matter what.

 

[Malifice]

This is very simplistic, you are not looking at this in terms of the structure of our list.

How did replacing a 30 year old forward with a 29 year old forward in exchange for an 18 year old 1st round draftee midfielder and a 20 year old 1st round draftee KPP not affect the long term structure of your list?

Who said we are going to keep on trading our kids? This was a very deliberate strategy based on our current list and the heavily compromised nature of the next few drafts.

Yon concede (surely) your current list needs kids. So... then you deliberately missed out on the last uncompromised draft for the next 5 years?

Dont get me wrong, I understand the strategy. I just don't agree with it. Rather that try to address a problem all can see with your current list, (aged midfield, aging KPPs that Henderson was drafted 2 years ago to replace) surely this strategy just makes the fall (that you acknowledge is coming) worse?

For years we have traded players far, far less than other clubs. I think for the past half dozen years or so we have only ever had 1 player on the list who has played a game for another club. In a sense this season rebalanced this situation.

Fair point. I'm not exactly sure why you needed to do it now though.

Rich and some of the other young players we picked up last year are part of the reason we did this. It would not have made sense for us to do this last year, but it does this year. Again it is too simplistic to pretend we are going to follow this pattern every draft or to pretend that every club should follow the same draft strategy every year no matter what.

Arguable.

Personally I would have looked to acquire another 1st rounder (or two) by trading one or more of your established older brigade, and kept Henderson and your first rounder.

I only agree with the topping up strategy when you aren't ransoming your clubs future for the 'now'

It reeks a little of Fremantle circa 2002.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

WTF is up with all the Brisbane baiting?

I was all for trading Fev as I thought his position was untenable. I was also extremely happy to effectively get two first rounders for him, which I think represents an excellent return in the situation.

But I cannot understand why everyone thinks Brisbane have dropped the ball here? Fev is the most dominant full forward in the game and they've got him by trading someone who isn't in their best 22 and their first rounder. You've got to give up something to get someone like Fev. Perhaps they could have handled Bradshaw differently but, let's face it, he's surplus to requirements now too.

Without the off field problems, we would have been demanding Judd like compensation for him, so you can't blame Brisbane for pulling the trigger on that deal.

 

[Malifice]

But I cannot understand why everyone thinks Brisbane have dropped the ball here? Fev is the most dominant full forward in the game and they've got him by trading someone who isn't in their best 22 and their first rounder.

Agree with the above. They've acquired a match winning forward.

Many of us think that they have ransomed their future for it.

 

[thylacine60]

Agree with the above. They've acquired a match winning forward.

Many of us think that they have ransomed their future for it.

Match winning when on song and interested in proceedings. What about his toe-stubbing, teapot impersonating sulk-fests? The appealing to the ump whilst sitting on his arse as the opposition clear the ball downfield. The friendly fire on his own team-mates? The drinking? The misbehaving, the morale wrecking, self-centred behaviour? **** Brisbane, **** Nevola, **** Voss.

 

[chopperduck]

How did replacing a 30 year old forward with a 29 year old forward in exchange for an 18 year old 1st round draftee midfielder and a 20 year old 1st round draftee KPP not affect the long term structure of your list?

Because we are NOT trying to rebuild our list with top draft picks yet. I know its hard for Carlton people to understand, giving all the tanking you did to get the draft picks. Hendo and ONE draft pick does NOT = the future of an entire club. We still have depth in our KPP stocks for the next few years. As talented as Hendo is, he is surplus to needs if we have Brown and Fev.

Yon concede (surely) your current list needs kids. So... then you deliberately missed out on the last uncompromised draft for the next 5 years?

Yes, we have missed the draft because we dont need it. We have the players to last until both new clubs are in and the draft is back to normal. By then we will probably bottom out, get some good draft picks and our next generation such as Rich, Redden, Polka are all 22-25 and hitting their prime. By going down this track, and getting in some mature bodied mid 20 year old players is a gap fill until the drafts are back to normal.

Dont get me wrong, I understand the strategy. I just don't agree with it. Rather that try to address a problem all can see with your current list, (aged midfield, aging KPPs that Henderson was drafted 2 years ago to replace) surely this strategy just makes the fall (that you acknowledge is coming) worse?

Personally I would have looked to acquire another 1st rounder (or two) by trading one or more of your established older brigade, and kept Henderson and your first rounder.

So instead of trying to hit another flag while we still have our aged midfield and KPPs, we are better off trading them off now, and trying to rebuild at the start of the compromised drafts ?? can you see how silly this idea is. This is what we are trying to put off for 4 years. We are not going to get the most out of our picks if we are drafting over the next 4 years. We have some good young talent still coming through our list, we just need some mature bodies to gap fill a season or two and then get us past the GC and GWS drafts.

I only agree with the topping up strategy when you aren't ransoming your clubs future for the 'now'

Again, Hendo and one draft pick is NOT the future of the entire club. Hendo is not going to sit around for another 4 years in the QAFL while Brown and Fev keep playing. That is why he jumped at the chance to move when we were after Fev. He could wait maybe a year for Bradshaw to tear his quad or hammy, but Fev is in better shape.

 

[weevil]

How did replacing a 30 year old forward with a 29 year old forward in exchange for an 18 year old 1st round draftee midfielder and a 20 year old 1st round draftee KPP not affect the long term structure of your list?



Yon concede (surely) your current list needs kids. So... then you deliberately missed out on the last uncompromised draft for the next 5 years?

Dont get me wrong, I understand the strategy. I just don't agree with it. Rather that try to address a problem all can see with your current list, (aged midfield, aging KPPs that Henderson was drafted 2 years ago to replace) surely this strategy just makes the fall (that you acknowledge is coming) worse?



Fair point. I'm not exactly sure why you needed to do it now though.



Arguable.

Personally I would have looked to acquire another 1st rounder (or two) by trading one or more of your established older brigade, and kept Henderson and your first rounder.

I only agree with the topping up strategy when you aren't ransoming your clubs future for the 'now'

It reeks a little of Fremantle circa 2002.

It with the other list changes makes us a contender for a flag in the next 3 years. We may not make it but realistically we were never a chance within this time frame previously. Following on from that with Brown, Black, Power and Bradshaw retired and we also would have struggled to make a genuine impact.

We were one of the youngest teams in the league last year. We were very badly lacking mid-aged big bodied players. Very happy with both our midfield kids and defence.

Given the age makeup of our list - us sitting tight in the short term and steadily picking up draft picks was not going to win us a flag. We have a window with our elite core players and our up and coming kids, if we addressed the issues with our age structures.

There is a thread on the Lions board about picking a side for round 1. Poster after poster has commented about how much more difficult it is now to select and how much more depth and flexibility our list now has. It may be difficult for an outsider to see at first but our list is now significantly stronger than it was.

I think the comparison with Freo 02 is very simplistic. It’s true we essentially gave up 2 low draft picks, but we have added one of the truly elite forwards in the comp. Players like that do not grow on trees. We gave up virtually nothing for all the other players we got. Outside of Fev our recruits very much match the Saints model of the past few years.

It was reported far and wide that this was a particularly weak draft and looking back over the past 10 years I think there have been maybe 2 genuine quality players selected at pick 12. The next few drafts are a wasteland. If you have a premiership window now is the ideal time for it to open.

It absolutely weakens our side a few years down the track, but it allows us to have a red hot shot where one previously did not exist. It may all turn to crap, but it is going to be awesome fun to watch.

 

[Dramoth]

Because we are NOT trying to rebuild our list with top draft picks yet. I know its hard for Carlton people to understand, giving all the tanking you did to get the draft picks. Hendo and ONE draft pick does NOT = the future of an entire club. We still have depth in our KPP stocks for the next few years. As talented as Hendo is, he is surplus to needs if we have Brown and Fev.

So Carlton tanked for years for the draft picks instead of being absolutely crap because of piss poor list management and the salary cap penalties as well as having a coach who was out of touch with the modern game and who constantly played people out of their preferred positions to the detriment of their careers.

However, what you do with your list is your business and I am sure that you will have some success at staying in the top 8 for at least the next 2 years. But then when GWS comes in and you are faced with another 3 years of compromised drafts while your top aged players are all retiring and you suddenly realise that you dont have any replacements for them except for a bunch of rapidly aging nobodies you will hang Voss out on a limb.

Now, in my opinion, the Brisbane Lions only managed to win their 3 premierships after ripping the guts out of a club which had 100 times more class and history than you bunch of ********s will ever have. Even the filth have more class than you guys and thats saying something considering how much I hate those useless w***ers.

And now to add insult to injury, you are breaking a part of the merger agreement which says that you have to use the original Fitzroy lion emblem for eternity so you can use the paddle-pop lion.

Is Lorenzo Serafini still on the board of directors up there or has he left now? Because I am certain that he would have voted against you guys changing the emblem.

 

[parrot]

.... We have a window with our elite core players and our up and coming kids, if we addressed the issues with our age structures.....

You have 2 elite KP forwards both pushing 30, an average aging midfield, and an average defense. And have effectively traded away 2 first round picks, plus a heap of other draft picks for recycled types. That's the reality of the situation - i.e. sold your future, to try to pinch a flag over the next 1-2 years. It's a gamble. Very similar to the Freo situation a few years back. Bet your hoping for a different outcome. The other problem is there'll be compromised drafts for ages, so if Vossy's gamble fails, the hurt will be a lot more than it normally would be because you won't have access to the top-draft picks, plus GC17 wil move past Brisbane as the dominant Qld regional team.

 

[sosos]

Because we are NOT trying to rebuild our list with top draft picks yet. I know its hard for Carlton people to understand, giving all the tanking you did to get the draft picks.

So therefore you think your own club were tanking in their early history.

You weren't by any chance just a poorly run, underprepared team of young inexperienced potentially good players, and old past it champions with the wrong coach with a whole host of financial and homeground problems?

History is like that. It can bite you with unwelcome facts.

 

[Silvagnis]

So instead of trying to hit another flag while we still have our aged midfield and KPPs, we are better off trading them off now, and trying to rebuild at the start of the compromised drafts ?? can you see how silly this idea is. This is what we are trying to put off for 4 years. We are not going to get the most out of our picks if we are drafting over the next 4 years. We have some good young talent still coming through our list, we just need some mature bodies to gap fill a season or two and then get us past the GC and GWS drafts.

I posted on your board that you were right to get a big name and attract attention with the arrival of GC.

Gold Coast will be the best Queensland team and a dominant team five years from now.

Yet I don't know why you couldn't have planned to win a flag with Brown, Bradshaw and Henderson.

There was nothing stopping Brisbane playing Bradshaw at FF and gradually introducing Henderson into the mix.

Carlton supporters who watched Henderson play in the TAC Cup and know their stuff, think he will start kicking bags at the highest level.

If Nathan Ablett and Tom Hawkins performed to win flags as third year forwards, there's no reason why the Lions couldn't have played Bradshaw and then Henderson at FF.

And had another quality midfielder or KPP.

None of your spin will change this assessment.

Carlton were desperate to sell, so we may have taken your first offer of Bradshaw and Rischitelli.

Offloading picks 12 and 14 plus Henderson for Fevola, Bartlett and Johnstone isn't cheap trading in anyone's language.

If you give up a pick and a player, it will eventually cost you if you don't get it back somewhere else.

And the next two drafts will be hard work for all the clubs.

Fevola isn't an Alastair Lynch, Cam Mooney, Tom Harley or Earl Spalding who worked hard and were good clubman at their second clubs.

Unlike Fev, Cam Mooney wringed every drop out of his ability to become a premiership player.

There are still question marks on Clarke, Staker, Buchanan, Maguire and Raines being of value to the Lions.

I would struggle to find a spot for them in Carlton's best 22.

 

[mediumsizered]

For years we have traded players far, far less than other clubs. I think for the past half dozen years or so we have only ever had 1 player on the list who has played a game for another club. In a sense this season rebalanced this situation.

That one player you refer to happens to be Travis Johnstone, for whom you traded a first round pick to get to Brisbane. Of course you obtained that first round pick from Collingwood, in a trade for a player (Cameron Wood) who was your first round pick in 2004. At the time it probably seemed a reasonable move as you still kept a first round pick in the 2007 draft. That pick of course was used on Lachie Henderson. Effectively, in the space of two years the Lions have given away 4 first round picks. God help Vossy if the Lions don't deliver that flag in the next couple of years, because the club will have given away a first round pick ruckman (Wood), a first round pick KPP (Henderson), Pick 14 (utilised by Melbourne on Jack Grimes) & Pick 12 (Kane Lucas).