Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[Bloods86]

Are you serious???
When did I say Putin was justified in invading Ukraine? I have consistently made the point that his invasion of Ukraine was criminal and reactionary, and completely played into the hands of US/NATO - who were provoking him precisely into this action.

When will the posters here learn that explaining does not equate to justifying.

Of course, US and Ukrainian propaganda claimed that the referendum was a sham.

However, history shows that both the US and EU have no concern about sham and illegality when it suits their interests:

"In 1991, Croatia and Slovenia held illegal referenda to secede from Yugoslavia. These were not carried out on an all-national basis, as the US claims would be needed in Ukraine for a legal Crimean referendum. Nevertheless, by January 1992, the European Union had recognised both as independent states. The US followed its example in April 1992."

US hypocrisy on Crimean independence referendum

All invocations of Ukrainian sovereignty are in reference to a government that was installed by a coup engineered and financed by the Western powers.

www.wsws.org

Ok, cool, so Ukraine is justified in fighting back, including striking at/into Russia, with the assistance of allies. Let's give them what they need.

Unless your view is that Russia, while naughty, should only have to fight against a Ukraine that has one hand tied behind its back.

The US/NATO did not provoke this war into existence, pure fantasy on your part. Russia is solely responsible.

Sorry, were Croatia and Slovenia invaded by a neighbouring country, who while occupying them, performed a "referendum" for them to secede from Yugoslavia, and to join the invading nation, where there was no option for things to remain unchanged?

 

[IlovethePies]

You were asking about the US's past invasions etc, which are not relevant to this conflict (which Russia started and has the ability to stop at any time).

And this is where you are entirely wrong. The US past invasions are extremely relevant. Since the early 90's, after the liquidation of the USSR, the US imperialist strategists saw this as a "unipolar opportunity" to offset economic decline with geostrategic domination via militarism.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, a highly influential diplomat and strategist who shaped the US policy of collaborating with Islamic fundamentalists (including Al Quaida) in order to provoke the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and bleed the USSR white, (similar to what the US has done in Ukraine) wrote the following words in 1997:

“Eurasia is the world’s axial supercontinent. A power that dominated Eurasia would exercise decisive influence over two of the world’s three most economically productive regions, Western Europe and East Asia. A glance at the map also suggests that a country dominant in Eurasia would almost automatically control the Middle East and Africa. With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia. What happens with the distribution of power on the Eurasian landmass will be of decisive importance to America’s global primacy and historical legacy ... In a volatile Eurasia, the immediate task is to ensure that no state or combination of states gains the ability to expel the United States or even diminish its decisive role.”

Since then, we have seen American intervention into Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, Syria, and now (via its proxy Israel) into Gaza and soon Lebanon. All in line with what Brzezinski articulated way back in 1997: control of Eurasia gives economic and geostrategic domination. All these interventions and invasions have been unified under the same umbrella: control of Eurasia.

And guess where Ukraine lies: on the very brink of Eurasia.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, architect of the catastrophe in Afghanistan, dead at 89

“What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe?” the former national security adviser said of the CIA alliance with Al Qaeda.

www.wsws.org

​

 

[IlovethePies]

Ok, cool, so Ukraine is justified in fighting back, including striking at/into Russia, with the assistance of allies. Let's give them what they need.

Unless your view is that Russia, while naughty, should only have to fight against a Ukraine that has one hand tied behind its back.

The US/NATO did not provoke this war into existence, pure fantasy on your part. Russia is solely responsible.

Sorry, were Croatia and Slovenia invaded by a neighbouring country, who while occupying them, performed a "referendum" for them to secede from Yugoslavia, and to join the invading nation, where there was no option for things to remain unchanged?

1) Of course, one cannot trust the Putin government, and one should not discount the possiblity of intimidation, compulsion etc in the Crimean vote.

2) However, the point of my post above was to make clear that equally well, one cannot place any faith whatsoever in what the US and its European allies say, because it is obvious to any person who studies their record that they have absolutely no concern or desire for democracy and freedom anywhere in the world, and instead use these values cynically as a basis to conceal their predation.

3) No, my view is totally different to what you have described above. For the working population in Ukraine and in Russia, the Zelensky government and the Putin government are the enemy. They are sending vast numbers of young men to die on the battlefield for the profit and wealth of competing capitalist oligarchies (the Ukrainian and the Russian). Moreover, the Zelensky regime is an agent of the US and NATO, and is sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men for the profits of US finance capital.

Therefore, the only way this conflict can be resolved is through the unification of the Ukrainian and Russian working class, in a political movement to overthrow both Zelensky and Putin, and to turn out to the workers in every country who are confronting a cost of living crisis, ongoing infection from covid, endless attacks on their living standards, and the growing threat of police state measures, as well as the ongoing threat of war and genocide.

 

[Bloods86]

And this is where you are entirely wrong. The US past invasions are extremely relevant. Since the early 90's, after the liquidation of the USSR, the US imperialist strategists saw this as a "unipolar opportunity" to offset economic decline with geostrategic domination.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, a highly influential diplomat and strategist who shaped the US policy of collaborating with Islamic fundamentalists (including Al Quaida) in order to provoke the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and bleed the USSR white, (similar to what the US has done in Ukraine) wrote the following words in 1997:

“Eurasia is the world’s axial supercontinent. A power that dominated Eurasia would exercise decisive influence over two of the world’s three most economically productive regions, Western Europe and East Asia. A glance at the map also suggests that a country dominant in Eurasia would almost automatically control the Middle East and Africa. With Eurasia now serving as the decisive geopolitical chessboard, it no longer suffices to fashion one policy for Europe and another for Asia. What happens with the distribution of power on the Eurasian landmass will be of decisive importance to America’s global primacy and historical legacy ... In a volatile Eurasia, the immediate task is to ensure that no state or combination of states gains the ability to expel the United States or even diminish its decisive role.”

Since then, we have seen American intervention into Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, Syria, and now (via its proxy Israel) into Gaza and soon Lebanon. All in line with what Brzezinski articulated way back in 1997: control of Eurasia gives economic and geostrategic domination. All these interventions and invasions have been unified under the same umbrella: control of Eurasia.

And guess where Ukraine lies: on the very brink of Eurasia.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, architect of the catastrophe in Afghanistan, dead at 89

“What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe?” the former national security adviser said of the CIA alliance with Al Qaeda.

www.wsws.org

​

If your argument is that Russia is paranoid about US invasions/military action or supporting allies elsewhere, sure ok, but this does not justify Russia invading Ukraine.

Nor is their reasoning rational, given the US has not invaded or been looking to invade Ukraine or Russia.

Nor should it somehow affect the support Ukraine receives or restrict their ability to fight Russia in any way it sees fit (war crimes aside obviously).

Nor is the US involvement or lead in those other conflicts, equivalent to Russia's actions of taking territories for their own (favourable resource extraction in some areas aside).

 

[Bloods86]

1) Of course, one cannot trust the Putin government, and one should not discount the possiblity of intimidation, compulsion etc in the Crimean vote.

2) However, the point of my post above was to make clear that equally well, one cannot place any faith whatsoever in what the US and its European allies say, because it is obvious to any person who studies their record that they have absolutely no concern or desire for democracy and freedom anywhere in the world, and instead use these values cynically as a basis to conceal their predation.

3) No, my view is totally different to what you have described above. For the working population in Ukraine and in Russia, the Zelensky government and the Putin government are the enemy. They are sending vast numbers of young men to die on the battlefield for the profit and wealth of competing capitalist oligarchies (the Ukrainian and the Russian). Moreover, the Zelensky regime is an agent of the US and NATO, and is sacrificing the lives of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men for the profits of US finance capital.

Therefore, the only way this conflict can be resolved is through the unification of the Ukrainian and Russian working class, in a political movement to overthrow both Zelensky and Putin, and to turn out to the workers in every country who are confronting a cost of living crisis, ongoing infection from covid, endless attacks on their living standards, and the growing threat of police state measures, as well as the ongoing threat of war and genocide.

I am well aware of US Foreign Policy.

But I'm not repping the US here, I'm advocating for Ukraine and democratic principles. So if the US was hypocritical in one argument against the Crimean referendum, so what? I'll still argue against its legitimacy, because I'm not beholden to US arguments.

There is no equivocation between the Ukrainian government, fighting to save their country, and the Russian government, as to who the biggest enemy of the Ukrainian people is. There is no legitimate "both sidesing" here. There are faults in both governments, as there were faults in all governments in WWII, but we don't call that a wash.

Your views on the causes and prolongers of the war are thoroughly skewed in favour of Russia. They are common Russian state/media talking points, passed on by useful and uncritical conduits in Western "independent" media. They do not reflect reality and do a disrespectful disservice to Ukrainians, who have agency of their own, in their protection of their country and people from the actual regime invading them.

 

[IlovethePies]

I am well aware of US Foreign Policy.

But I'm not repping the US here, I'm advocating for Ukraine and democratic principles. So if the US was hypocritical in one argument against the Crimean referendum, so what? I'll still argue against its legitimacy, because I'm not beholden to US arguments.

There is no equivocation between the Ukrainian government, fighting to save their country, and the Russian government, as to who the biggest enemy of the Ukrainian people is. There is no legitimate "both sidesing" here. There are faults in both governments, as there were faults in all governments in WWII, but we don't call that a wash.

Your views on the causes and prolongers of the war are thoroughly skewed in favour of Russia. They are common Russian state/media talking points, passed on by useful and uncritical conduits in Western "independent" media. They do not reflect reality and do a direspectful disservice to Ukrainians, who have agency of their own, in their protection of their country and people from the actual regime invading them.

How are my views "skewed in favour of Russia" when I am calling for the overthrow of the Putin regime by the working class???

 

[Bloods86]

How are my views "skewed in favour of Russia" when I am calling for the overthrow of the Putin regime by the working class???

Context mate, read the surrounding words. I'm clearly talking about the war (the topic of the thread), regardless of what you think should happen outside of it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Context mate, read the surrounding words. I'm clearly talking about the war (the topic of the thread), regardless of what you think should happen outside of it.

What I am calling for is not outside the war.
The conditions that create imperialist wars also create the possiblity of socialist revolution.
That is why World War 1 ended. The governments of Britain, France, Germany etc were terrified by the prospect of the Russian Revolution replicating itself against them.
Hence, they ended the neverending slaughter.

 

[Bloods86]

What I am calling for is not outside the war.
The conditions that create imperialist wars also create the possiblity of socialist revolution.

Ok, but you're not just talking about what can happen because of war, you're providing very skewed analysis of its causes and those prolonging it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Ok, but you're not just talking about what can happen because of war, you're providing very skewed analysis of its causes and those prolonging it.

You have yet to demonstrate in any way how my analysis is "skewed".
Have you considered perhaps that it is your own analysis that is skewed?
And yes, I wish to make crystal clear that socialist revolution is dialectically connected to imperialist war.

The conspiracies, lies and criminal violence of imperialist governments, - and likewise, those of capitalist governments which are their targets (such as Putin) - can only be stopped by the overthrow of capitalism worldwide.

 

[Bloods86]

You have yet to demonstrate in any way how my analysis is "skewed".
Have you considered perhaps that it is your own analysis that is skewed?
And yes, I wish to make crystal clear that socialist revolution is dialectically connected to imperialist war.

The conspiracies, lies and criminal violence of imperialist governments, - and likewise, those of capitalist governments which are their targets (such as Putin) - can only be stopped by the overthrow of capitalism worldwide.

I'm somewhere between a SocDem and a Democratic Socialist, so we may agree on some of the faults of capitalism.

However, your characterisation of the US/NATO provoking this war is unfounded, similar to your comparison to Ukraine, a flawed democracy with corruption issues, as somehow equivalent to a more corrupt, authoritarian regime that invaded it (multiple times, along with other nations).

You can point to reasons why a paranoid and irrational Putin regime might see the invasion as being provoked, but we don't have to accept them as legitimate just on your say so.

Putin is imperialist, this is clear from his actions against several countries, particularly Ukraine. Another example of your skewed analysis.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm somewhere between a SocDem and a Democratic Socialist, so we may agree on some of the faults of capitalism.

However, your characterisation of the US/NATO provoking this war is unfounded, similar to your comparison to Ukraine, a flawed democracy with corruption issues, as somehow equivalent to a more corrupt, authoritarian regime that invaded it (multiple times, along with other nations).

You can point to reasons why a paranoid and irrational Putin regime might see the invasion as being provoked, but we don't have to accept them as legitimate.

Putin is imperialist, this is clear from his actions against several countries, particularly Ukraine. Another example of your skewed analysis.

The Putin regime is not imperialist.

This is a lie being spread by pseudo-socialist political tendencies, which like to use Marxist phraseology such as "imperialist" to create total confusion about what these terms actually mean.

Imperialism has a scientific definition, based on historical development. The imperialist nations are those that dominated the global economy at the turn of the 20th century, through the super profits sucked out of colonies, through the domination of finance capital and the development of monopoly capitalism. They are: Britain, the US, France, Germany, Japan ...

Historically, Russia was industrialised only by the flood of imperialist capital, creating massive factories in advance of the rest of the world in technology and layout, to exploit the cheap labour made available as peasants flocked to the cities to escape the crushing poverty in the countryside. (Parallel to the industrialisation of China by imperialism in the 90's and onwards when the Chinese regime opened up Chinese cheap labour to imperialist exploitation after the Tianamen Square massacre).

Russia was historically subjected to the domination of imperialism. It was the Russian Revolution that broke imperialism at its weakest link.

Pseudo-socialists pretend to be socialist as a means to cover their total infatuation with capitalism. Their claim that Russia is "imperialist" is an excuse for them to support the NATO/US war against Russia.

 

[Bloods86]

The Putin regime is not imperialist.

This is a lie being spread by pseudo-socialist political tendencies, which like to use Marxist phraseology such as "imperialist" to create total confusion about what these terms actually mean.

Imperialism has a scientific definition, based on historical development. The imperialist nations are those that dominated the global economy at the turn of the 20th century, through the super profits sucked out of colonies, through the domination of finance capital and the development of monopoly capitalism. They are: Britain, the US, France, Germany, Japan ...

Historically, Russia was industrialised only by the flood of imperialist capital, creating massive factories in advance of the rest of the world in technology and layout, to exploit the cheap labour made available as peasants flocked to the cities to escape the crushing poverty in the countryside.

Russia was historically subjected to the domination of imperialism. It was the Russian Revolution that broke imperialism at its weakest link.

Pseudo-socialists pretend to be socialist as a means to cover their total infatuation with capitalism. Their claim that Russia is "imperialist" is an excuse for them to support the NATO/US war against Russia.

What a surprise, your definition of imperialism only fits (in your mind) Western nations or one that is now allied with them.

Ignoring any economic benefit Russia gets from captured territory, or influence over nations within its former empire.

There is no NATO/US war against Russia. The involvement of NATO/US and other Ukrainian allies in Russia's war against Ukraine, is also easily justified without Russia being imperialist (although it's intrinsic as to its motivations). It isn't needed as an excuse, unlike the talking points about US imperialism elsewhere (which are needed to paint Russia in a more favourable light).

 

[IlovethePies]

What a surprise, your definition of imperialism only fits (in your mind) Western nations or one that is allied with them.

Ignoring any economic benefit Russia gets from captured territory, or influence over nations within its former empire.

There is no NATO/US war against Russia. The involvement of NATO/US and other Ukrainian allies in Russia's war against Ukraine, is also easily justified without Russia being imperialist (although it's intrinsic as to its motivations). It isn't needed as an excuse, unlike the talking points about US imperialism elsewhere.

It is not "my" definition of imperialism, it is the definition in fact of leading academics (not Marxist) in the early 1900's who provided the data and framework for Lenin to write his masterpiece which explains imperialism scientifically: "Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism".

Denying that there is no NATO war against Russia is simply denying reality. You have admitted that the US and NATO are involved, and then you claim in the next breath that there is no NATO/US war against Russia!

The pseudo socialists do need an excuse, as their aim is to keep workers trapped within a pro-capitalist framework. To do this, they use "left language" to try to retain an influence over workers and young people (students) who are searching for a genuine alternative to capitalism.

 

[Bloods86]

Denying that there is no NATO war against Russia is simply denying reality. You have admitted that the US and NATO are involved, and then you claim in the next breath that there is no NATO/US war against Russia!

It's kind of sad that I have to keep reminding you to read.

Involvement does not equate to culpability.

I'll try to make it simpler for you. A state or district that provides firefighting equipment to another, in order for it to battle bushfires, is not inherently guilty of starting the fires.

This is Russia's war against Ukraine, or conversely, Ukraine's defensive war against Russia. Various countries are providing support to either side.

 

[IlovethePies]

It's kind of sad that I have to keep reminding you to read.

Involvement does not equate to culpability.

I'll try to make it simpler for you. A state that provides firefighting equipment to another, in order for it to battle bushfires, is not inherently guilty of starting the fires.

This is Russia's war against Ukraine, or conversely, Ukraine's defensive war against Russia. Various countries are providing support to either side.

The firestarter was the US along with Germany, in the 30 years preceding 2022. Subsequently other imperialist governments (Britain,France) have become involved as well. I cannot make it any simpler for you.

IN the world of imperialist politics, involvement always implies culpability, along with criminality and violence.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Hey WSWSpies .... how's your Socialist Internationalism revolution going?

How long do you think it will take?

Is it true the leaders of the revolution will live alongside the workers in equal wealth?

Look forward to your feedback ... cheers!!

 

[Bloods86]

The firestarter was the US along with Germany, in the decade preceding 2022. I cannot make it any simpler for you.

Yes, we know. Your foreign policy begins and ends, some minor finger wagging at others aside, with "America/West bad".

Russia invading Ukraine on multiple fronts in 2014 was just wet timber, no relevance at all I guess.

 

[IlovethePies]

Hey WSWSpies .... how's your Socialist Internationalism revolution going?

How long do you think it will take?

Is it true the leaders of the revolution will live alongside the workers in equal wealth?

Look forward to your feedback ... cheers!!

How long do I think it will take?
Not sure, but the world does not have much time left.
Counterrevolution is proceeding rapidly.
Struggle will decide.

If you wish to understand the program of socialism and what it means, I can refer you to no other source than the wsws.

If you are genuinely interested, you will go there.

 

[modul8]

How long do I think it will take?
Not sure, but the world does not have much time left.
Counterrevolution is proceeding rapidly.
Struggle will decide.

If you wish to understand the program of socialism and what it means, I can refer you to no other source than the wsws.

If you are genuinely interested, you will go there.

If I'd had a lobotomy recently i might think about it

 

[Sarcoidevo]

How long do I think it will take?
Not sure, but the world does not have much time left.
Counterrevolution is proceeding rapidly.
Struggle will decide.

If you wish to understand the program of socialism and what it means, I can refer you to no other source than the wsws.

If you are genuinely interested, you will go there.

Like how much time left?

5 years? 10 .. 20 ... 50 years?

And the counterrevolution/s it's proceeding rapidly .... where exactly?

Also ... is it true the leaders of the revolution will live alongside the workers in equal wealth?

It's important that we know ... can you guarantee this?

7 Billion people... 7 Billions leaders..... no fighting .... just working together ... and those that don't comply what happens to them?

Thanks again!!

 

[IlovethePies]

If I'd had a lobotomy recently i might think about it

True, a lobotomy might be a path to an open mind for some.

 

[IlovethePies]

Like how much time left?

5 years? 10 .. 20 ... 50 years?

And the counterrevolution/s it's proceeding rapidly .... where exactly?

Also ... is it true the leaders of the revolution will live alongside the workers in equal wealth?

It's important that we know ... can you guarantee this?

7 Billion people... 7 Billions leaders..... no fighting .... just working together ... and those that don't comply what happens to them?

Thanks again!!

The only thing I can guarantee is that if capitalism continues indefinitely, social inequality will get far worse than even it is now, dictatorial forms of rule will emerge world wide, climate change will produce unpredictable environmental and social catastrohes, and war will envelop the planet, leading inevitably to nuclear armageddon.

I don't claim to be Nostra Damus (as others do here) so Im not putting any time frame on it. I am simply referring to the trajectory of events.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Sorry ... also does it mean that workers across all industries get paid the same monthly wage? Including AFL Footballers? Actors?

Thanks!!