Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[barreness]

Putin Russia always wanted Ukraine as part of russia or at the least a puppet state.

Yep, because it has been for centuries. It's why the US getting involved was madness

 

[barreness]

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4904188-us-russia-relations-helsinki-report/

The bipartisan committee charged with supporting democracy and human rights in post-Soviet states is pushing for the United States to dump the post-Cold War status quo in its relations with Russia and label Moscow as a “persistent” threat to global security.

These lawmakers are likely to embrace the report’s conclusions that “the United States must prepare for long-term contestation, understanding that Russia has a centuries-long history of violent imperialism toward its neighbors, Europe, and the world more broadly.”

The irony of a state with 800 military bases in 80 nations saying this

They further argue that Putin is a disingenuous negotiator and any deal that concedes Ukrainian territory to Russia will embolden the Russian leader to relaunch an expansionist war in Ukraine, further pursue aggression in neighboring, post-Soviet states and potentially attack NATO member states in which Moscow is already carrying out hybrid-warfare.

The report wants to shift Washington’s thinking away from viewing Russia as a superpower and near-peer of the U.S. just because it holds nuclear weapons.

Shit yeh, nuclear war, lets go baby

 

[Mobbs]

Kotlubany ammunition storage in Volgograd oblast, and Milerovo airfield on Rostov oblast, both struck in Ukrainian attacks.

On SM-A146P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Vitriol]

And this is a rewrite of history. Chamberlain actually brought Britain time and poured money into the RAF, amongst other things getting the spitfire which arguably saved the Island and a complete take of western europe.

Churchill was and always remained a racist bastard, could give a speech though.

Appeasement gets a bad wrap. No one tried it in WW1 and it led to a cluste** for no real reason, they tried it in WW2 because they didn't want to do the same war 20 years later. Also led to a cluster** but it bought both the Soviet Union and Britain time to hold on

Pretty arse backwards understanding of appeasement. The French and British military forces were vastly superior to the Germans in the build up to WW2 considering the limitations put on them by the treaty of Versailles. The Germans were ramping up up preparations for war because they were always planning on it while the allies were slow to react and the Germans were able to start pulling ahead of them. Appeasement simply gave the Germans time to catch up.

If say the french had enacted the treaty of Versailles in 36 when the Germans remilitarised the Rhineland the Germans would not have had a chance. Three years later though and the Germans had outproduced the allies and evened out the balance of power to the point they were strong enough to defeat the french who had been dragging their feet in regards to rearmament.

 

[Chief]

NATO should have backed off Ukraine due to the various warnings that were given and that it something that Russia wouldn't swallow.

This to me is a bit icky. It's a "look what you made me do" thing on Putin's part.
However, I agree that NATO should have been better prepared for Putin's attack. That they don't seem to have had a concrete plan in place to send equipment in and train operators is pretty shocking.

 

[Couch Coach]

 

[wannabejack]

Yep, because it has been for centuries. It's why the US getting involved was madness

It’s not like Ukraine wanted to be part of russia. It still doesn’t want to be part of russia.
It was once part of Poland.

Russia and Ukraine: the tangled history that connects—and divides—them

Centuries of bloodshed, foreign domination, and internal divisions have left Ukraine in a precarious position between East and West.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Russian leader Vladimir Putin recently declared, “Russians and Ukrainians are one people, a single whole.”

Yet over the past 10 centuries, Ukraine has repeatedly been carved up by competing powers.

Over the years that followed, a policy known as Russification banned the use and study of the Ukrainian language, and people were pressured to convert to the Russian Orthodox faith.

“Winning” this war may be the last chance the people of Ukraine have of being Ukrainian and not second class russian.

 

[Venkman]

This to me is a bit icky. It's a "look what you made me do" thing on Putin's part.
However, I agree that NATO should have been better prepared for Putin's attack. That they don't seem to have had a concrete plan in place to send equipment in and train operators is pretty shocking.

I don't know if it's icky... I think we get caught up in what morally justifiable - like one aspect of these American wars is not whether they are morally justifiable but whether they are practically achievable. States will say 'look what you made me do' regardless, but they, again in response to their interests. The US was never going to allow USSR missiles on cuba and this part of the realist take that Obama had, he basically said that Ukraine couldn't be defended as the Russians would have 'escalatory dominance,' and this true insofar as the Russians have the unity and resolve to be keeping at it. As for NATO preparedness, I'm no expert on this, I think they were pretty prepared but couldn't really foresee how much stuff would get churned or that Russia had so much latent capacity for production. Putin is more a rational actor than people give him credit. Part of the heartbreak for Ukrainians will be once this thing is resolved there will be a few platitudes from western leaders and business with Russia will resume as usual.

 

[Cap]

It’s not like Ukraine wanted to be part of russia. It still doesn’t want to be part of russia.
It was once part of Poland.

Russia and Ukraine: the tangled history that connects—and divides—them

Centuries of bloodshed, foreign domination, and internal divisions have left Ukraine in a precarious position between East and West.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Russian leader Vladimir Putin recently declared, “Russians and Ukrainians are one people, a single whole.”

Yet over the past 10 centuries, Ukraine has repeatedly been carved up by competing powers.

Over the years that followed, a policy known as Russification banned the use and study of the Ukrainian language, and people were pressured to convert to the Russian Orthodox faith.

“Winning” this war may be the last chance the people of Ukraine have of being Ukrainian and not second class russian.

I find it absolutely incredible that anyone can be content suggesting a group of people should always been under control of another group of people because in various time in the past they have been.

should we head back the UK and be seen as as an colony controlled by the UK parliament just because we were in the past ?

 

[Cap]

Yeh because the Chechens formed a caliphate and invaded Dagestan. It's a bit like Georgia shelling the autonomous regions.

It's a retcon because Russia is the bad guy now

N.B First Chechen war was mostly Russia being horrible

Lol.

You mean when Putin likely blew up an apartment block to justify a war.

Russia were the bad guy there too as they were in Georgia.

your claims of not being a Russian shill are particularly hard to defend when you keep regurgitating Russian talking points.

 

[ferball]

Yep, like history is so damning of Winston Churchill, but holds Neville Chamberlain in so much high regard.

Spare me.

Winston Churchill was a genocidal, racist pos who was happy to set up concentration camps in Africa after WW2 happened. Barak Obomber's grandad ended up in one.

Just for the record.

 

[Cap]

Winston Churchill was a genocidal, racist pos who was happy to set up concentration camps in Africa after WW2 happened. Barak Obomber's grandad ended up in one.

Just for the record.

Churchill has been romanticised , to be fair he was a big player in WWII , despite his numerous and often horrific flaws.

Let's not forget he would have given us up to the Japanese if push had come to shove (but that's a whole other debate)

 

[Zidane98]

There's a massive extrapolation here that Putin = Hitler. The amount of civilian deaths in this war is around a 1/4 of Palestine which is not to justify anything. I'm not a Putin appeaser, just a realist - again I'd cite Meershiemer who argued that Ukraine should never have given over nukes initially due to the power imbalance but also that NATO should have backed off Ukraine due to the various warnings that were given and that it something that Russia wouldn't swallow. I do have children and wouldn't let them sign up for any imperialist war whether it was masterminded by Moscow, or Washington. The grubby fingers of the US neocons are all over this one - the same lunatics behind Iraq and Afghanistan. And for what? The power imbalance is such that Russia will grind it out and the yanks will lose interest. It's the same shit over and over. Rinse and repeat.

The amount of civilian deaths would be huge if it weren't for defensive weapons being supplied to Ukraine. Putin is deporting children against their will to Russia in huge numbers, often to Siberia. He's set up filtration camps, he regularly demonises Ukranine language & culture publicly. Very similar to what Hitler did in the leadup to WW2 right down to supposedly wanting to protect the Sundten Germans (this of course was nonsense). I find this is quote a concise article about the whole situation. Putin's obsession about the demise of the USSR is eerily similar to Hitler's obsession about Germany's loss in WW1 and the treaty of Versailles:

Is History Rhyming? The Putin – Hitler Analogy, Ukraine and Euro-Atlantic Security | CDA Institute

At the beginning of the Ukrainian conflict in 2014 when Russian President Vladimir Putin’s forces invaded Crimea, there was a torrent of criticism from the West, accompanied by economic sanctions. A speech Putin delivered on March 18, 2014, attempting to justify the takeover, prompted further...

cdainstitute.ca

Nothing wrong with Ukraine turning over nuclear weapons and nuclear bomber fleet to Russia in order to strengthen regional stability. It is notable that it was the US & UK (both NATO members) mostly who encouraged Ukraine to do this.


NATO don't approach anyone and absolutely are a non factor in Ukraine. Infact Putin's aggression has directly resulted in NATO expansion and a new 1300km border with NATO. How does Putin respond to this? Withdraws military power from the NATO border to focus on invading a non NATO neighbor.


Basically Ukraine and its people want to be a European nation, they don't want to be tied up with Belarus and whatever few allies Russia has. If Putin was smart he would win Ukraine back similar to how the Chinese are taking away Central Asia from Russian power - being a friendly neighbor and plenty of nation building projects.


Putin's invasion of Ukraine is simply down to a desire for Putin to create a new Russian empire (the victory speech Russia had prepared in anticipation of a quick win was leaked saying all of this). He loses nothing by withdrawing from Ukraine completely, signing a new peace deal.

 

[wannabejack]

Australian 155mm artillery shells destined for Ukraine - APDR

Shells being made at a new plant in the rural Queensland town of Maryborough and exported to Germany are destined for use in Ukraine.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

The shells are being manufactured at a new plant in the rural Queensland town of Maryborough and exported to Germany. Once there, they will be filled with explosive material and receive a fuse – and after that they go into the pool of ammunition to be transferred to Ukraine. While it is impossible to track each individual shell, some – or all – of the Australian production run will be fired against Russian invaders.

This is not being done via the Australian government – indeed 100% of the factory’s current output is going to Germany. This is a consequence of the ownership of the plant, which is a 51-49 joint venture between industrial giant Rheinmetall Waffe Munition and family-owned Australian company NIOA. While the JV is currently producing German DM121 shells at a rate of 20,000 per year, this will progressively increase because of global demand to an annual total exceeding 100,000.

Even though there is huge global demand for 155mm ammunition, the Australian Army has future proofed supply with a series of 5-year contracts, the most recent of which came into effect in June 2023.

 

[Zidane98]

Australian 155mm artillery shells destined for Ukraine - APDR

Shells being made at a new plant in the rural Queensland town of Maryborough and exported to Germany are destined for use in Ukraine.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

The shells are being manufactured at a new plant in the rural Queensland town of Maryborough and exported to Germany. Once there, they will be filled with explosive material and receive a fuse – and after that they go into the pool of ammunition to be transferred to Ukraine. While it is impossible to track each individual shell, some – or all – of the Australian production run will be fired against Russian invaders.

This is not being done via the Australian government – indeed 100% of the factory’s current output is going to Germany. This is a consequence of the ownership of the plant, which is a 51-49 joint venture between industrial giant Rheinmetall Waffe Munition and family-owned Australian company NIOA. While the JV is currently producing German DM121 shells at a rate of 20,000 per year, this will progressively increase because of global demand to an annual total exceeding 100,000.

Even though there is huge global demand for 155mm ammunition, the Australian Army has future proofed supply with a series of 5-year contracts, the most recent of which came into effect in June 2023.

Inb4 Putin threatens to nuke Maryborough over this.

 

[wannabejack]

Inb4 Putin threatens to nuke Maryborough over this.

 

[Chief]

Inb4 Putin threatens to nuke Maryborough over this.

I just wouldn't log in to public wifi anywhere in the vicinity.

 

[Baldur]

 

[Zidane98]

View attachment 2126916

Imagine this scenario:


Putin - Let's nuke Maryborough. Those Nazis are arming Ukraine!

Mobik in missile bunker: Missile fired sir. Detonation confirmed - Maryborough is no more!

Putin - what do you mean? The ammunition factory is still there!

Mobik in missile bunker: Oops, I fired on Maryborough, Victoria. You did not tell me which Maryborough to nuke!

Should I nuke Maryborough in QLD sir?

 

[ferball]

I just wouldn't log in to public wifi anywhere in the vicinity.

While Maryborough probably should be nuked, if things go that way odds are Ipswich (well close enough) will be.

 

[wannabejack]

Imagine this scenario:


Putin - Let's nuke Maryborough. Those Nazis are arming Ukraine!

Mobik in missile bunker: Missile fired sir. Detonation confirmed - Maryborough is no more!

Putin - what do you mean? The ammunition factory is still there!

Mobik in missile bunker: Oops, I fired on Maryborough, Victoria. You did not tell me which Maryborough to nuke!

Should I nuke Maryborough in QLD sir?

Just incase, get some air defense for both.

 

[Smeg Head]

Just incase, get some air defense for both.

Im fine without victoria

 

[Cap]

Russia is just misunderstood. I'm sure the US does this too