WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[Forward Press]

Dustin Martin was Richmond’s best midfielder AND best forward in 3 x flag winning finals campaigns. Is there any player we can find who has achieved that once, let alone three times?


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Pretty hard for Ablett or Judd to be Richmond's best midfielder tbh.

 

[PhatBoy]

Dustin Martin was Richmond’s best midfielder AND best forward in 3 x flag winning finals campaigns. Is there any player we can find who has achieved that once, let alone three times?


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Don’t see how his 2019 effort of 14/6, 22/2, 22/4 is that much different in terms of being ‘the best at both’ to Paul Chapman having 16/2, 26/5, 26/3. Only difference being Chapman was probably competing with more individual stars for honours with a midfield of Ablett, Selwood, Corey, Kelly, Johnson and Bartel all going through there for the majority of those games. Even in his 26/5 game, all of Ablett, Bartel, Selwood and Corey had at least 29 possessions - Ablett kicked 2 goals, Bartel had 3 assists, Corey kicked a goal.

Seems a pretty blanket statement to say he was your best midfielder that finals campaign when Dion Prestia had 32 touches, 10 tackles and a goal assist in one final, 28 touches, 2 goals and 3 goal assists in the next (in fact Prestia’s stats make him a better midfielder AND forward in that match, really), and 22 touches and a goal assist in the next.

 

[TheRealComptroller]

The coaches hadn’t determined that at all.
The coaches had merely given him the same amount of points.

Those points are impacted by numerous things, key among them? The performances of any of the 43 other players on the field in any given game in which Judd, or Martin, played one of those games.


Two players can have 100 coaches votes in two different seasons.

One of them can do it where every game he does it it’s via 10 player of the match efforts where he’s a unanimous best on ground in a game where two plonking teams have a cripple fight and it’s almost impossible to find a next best player because everyone was so bad.
The other one might manage it through 17 games where he polls votes and most of those games are pulsating affairs between class teams where there’s a dozen good performances but this player still manages to attract the votes.

Equal coaches votes doesn’t equal identical levels of performance at all and no, before some Tigers nuffy assumes that’s a shot at Martin, it’s not. It’s an across the board rule.

The Age and The Sunday Footy Show have a potentially better system whereby votes are awarded to the top five players of each game and they can get from 6 to 10 votes. So Salmon and Ablett could have both received 10s in that 1993 game but that also allows the fifth BOG to to receive 60% of the value of an epic performance for potentially doing nothing remarkable. However it is good if at the same time the lacklustre BOG in a dead rubber might only get a 6.


Geelong in the mid 1990s had an unorthodox system for the B&F. All four members of the match committee had four votes to allocate however they wanted; they could give one player four votes, four players one vote, two players two votes or three for one and one for the other. IIRC there was only one player who had a 16 vote game where every member allocated all of their four votes to him. It was to Leigh Colbert for gathering 35 touches and kicking two goals while tagging Darren Jarman and keeping him to 19 touches and no scoring.

I guess the best system would be one where every player player is awarded a score out of ten after every game by a panel.

Shane Woewodin in 2000 showed the ultimate flaw in a 3-2-1 system in that he wasn’t necessarily given votes he didn’t deserve. (FWIW he played one the games of the season late in the year against Geelong on a Sunday where had 35 touches and 4 goals) It was the that he wasn’t punished for his many terrible performances. He didn’t make the AA team because he had way too many quiet games but the 3-2-1 system has no way of detecting that. Whereas most Brownlow winners still played quite well in the games where they didn’t poll, he was the exception who often played very poorly when not getting votes. I guess you could say he MONEYBALLED the Brownlow.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Don’t see how his 2019 effort of 14/6, 22/2, 22/4 is that much different in terms of being ‘the best at both’ to Paul Chapman having 16/2, 26/5, 26/3. Only difference being Chapman was probably competing with more individual stars for honours with a midfield of Ablett, Selwood, Corey, Kelly, Johnson and Bartel all going through there for the majority of those games. Even in his 26/5 game, all of Ablett, Bartel, Selwood and Corey had at least 29 possessions - Ablett kicked 2 goals, Bartel had 3 assists, Corey kicked a goal.

Seems a pretty blanket statement to say he was your best midfielder that finals campaign when Dion Prestia had 32 touches, 10 tackles and a goal assist in one final, 28 touches, 2 goals and 3 goal assists in the next (in fact Prestia’s stats make him a better midfielder AND forward in that match, really), and 22 touches and a goal assist in the next.

In Chapman's 2009 finals series you refer to he had a total of 19 contested possessions & 49 of his disposals were receives from team-mates. He had 12 goals + assists of 70 goals in those matches.

In Dusty's 2019 finals series he had 58 disposals, 31 of those were contested, including 4 contested marks. Dusty had 15 goals + assists from 67 goals scored in those 3 games(by both teams.)

There is a decent gulf between those performances. The main difference apart from the appreciable gap in scoreboard impact is that Dusty was winning a hell of a lot more disputed balls. Almost 60% more. They had 8 clearances each so Dusty has had at least as much impact in the midfield.

The thing is you can say this player or that kicked more goals or got more disposals or clearances than Dusty in certain of these games, but he was sharing his time between the two areas of the ground, they weren't. And his disposals had a lot more impact than other players. He was clearly Richmond's best midfielder and best forward throughout his peak years. And this was never better demonstrated than in finals throughout the period. And Dusty wasn't just Richmond's best mid and forward in this period, he was amongst the best handful of mids and separately amongst the best handful of forwards in the game. When it was put to the ultimate test in the most important games, he passed the test with flying colours time and again.

Finally, look up their finals highlights in those respective finals series. It is not hard to tell why Dusty is revered for his peak performances and Chapman is seen merely in comparison as a very good player in a very good team.

 

[Byron_Clanger]

I ain't gonna say anything because it'll clearly be with bias, but I was watching Juddy's first and second year highlights on the Youtubes recently, and after what us West Coast fans have been forced to watch over the last four years you'd almost think Chris Judd back then and West Coast now were playing completely different sports.

What a joy and a privilege it was to cheer that bloke on for six years.

 

[Blackas87]

GAJ peak was better imo.