What do we need for successful 2012?

[Baldur]

Successful = flag, nothing else will do

Luck with injuries
Some of the younger players to come along
Players who played well this year to stay that way
% kicking at goal to be the highest in the AFL, particularly in the finals
A game plan that is capable of scoring as well as defending

 

[Rors]

That's a pretty ridiculous post mate. Lynch doesn't have the size or strength of Zac and given Zac is only 25, I'm finding it hard to believe he's done 10 preseasons.

Sorry mate, he's done 8 preseasons to be 100% accurate... Drafted in 2003 by the Hawks

Still, IMO he's not strong enough to be the key FB... I only threw up Tom Lynch's name as i believe he has been playing well in the backline at Sandy & i dont like his chances of becoming our 3rd-tall forward in the seniors

For the record,

Zac Dawson listed as 195cm & 95kg (25 yrs old... well & truly stopped growing)
Tom Lynch listed as 192cm & 87kg (turns 21 in 3 weeks... Prob still got another years growth in height to go)

Given that these stats are taken at the start of preseason, i doubt that Tom Lynch is still 192 & 87... And for that reason, he has the frame to become a gorilla in my opinion

 

[Winners Only]

It is a good move of the coaches to develop Archer at Full Back he would be a good matchup for most full forwards. I wonder what happened to Johnson playing down back - thats where he was playing when we drafted him.

IMO with an injection of talent we will be a 'serious challenger' again over the next couple of years. It will require a mind shift from RL to show faith in the younger players like Archer, Stanley, Sipposs, Ledger & Cripps and some wise trading/recruiting.

Let's see what offers players like Gram, Gilbert, Lynch, Winmar, Smith, Johnson & Stanley bring?

We need another ball winning midfielder in the mould of - Colin Sylvia, however if we can prise Gaff away from WCE that would be terrific. Perhaps Winmar could be part of a trade. I know Lenny will be back but he will take some time to return to his best!

We also need a quick strong key forward in the mould of Callum Wilson, or similiar. Perhaps even Fevola if his head is anywhere near right. We also need a backup ruckman - where from is the question? Hopefully we can pick up an older recycle ruckman without giving away too much and recruit a younger ruckman in the rookie draft.

 

[hayes]

It is a good move of the coaches to develop Archer at Full Back he would be a good matchup for most full forwards. I wonder what happened to Johnson playing down back - thats where he was playing when we drafted him.

IMO with an injection of talent we will be a 'serious challenger' again over the next couple of years. It will require a mind shift from RL to show faith in the younger players like Archer, Stanley, Sipposs, Ledger & Cripps and some wise trading/recruiting.

Let's see what offers players like Gram, Gilbert, Lynch, Winmar, Smith, Johnson & Stanley bring?

We need another ball winning midfielder in the mould of - Colin Sylvia, however if we can prise Gaff away from WCE that would be terrific. Perhaps Winmar could be part of a trade. I know Lenny will be back but he will take some time to return to his best!

We also need a quick strong key forward in the mould of Callum Wilson, or similiar. Perhaps even Fevola if his head is anywhere near right. We also need a backup ruckman - where from is the question? Hopefully we can pick up an older recycle ruckman without giving away too much and recruit a younger ruckman in the rookie draft.

All I read there was recycle recycle recycle. I'm sick of picking up players other teams don't want rather than trying to develop our own. All of our problems can be fixed by players that we already have, we just need to give them some games. I think our drafting has been pretty good the past 2-3 years and it's about time we used them on a permanent basis.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Side note: Wouldn't say no to Butcher.

Forget him mate. He's not going anywhere.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Personally I'm not sold on a Gorrilla full back. Its only good when you play on a gorilla forward.
Hudgeton never needed to outmuscle anyone, maybe he was using his brains instead. If Dawson is to be effective he needs to avoid wrestling against these gorillas and learn to spoil instead, but he doesnt seem to go for that style. A Hudgeton who could kick and mark would be pretty good IMO.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Yep, 2004. Back ended deal would have a significant impact on cap space.

Sorry mate, I see what you were getting at. Very good news.

 

[Rors]

All I read there was recycle recycle recycle. I'm sick of picking up players other teams don't want rather than trying to develop our own. All of our problems can be fixed by players that we already have, we just need to give them some games. I think our drafting has been pretty good the past 2-3 years and it's about time we used them on a permanent basis.

Surely you jest?

2008 - Farren Ray, Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Nick Heyne, Alistair Smith, Paul Cahill, Colm Begley
2009 - Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Nick Winmar, Jesse Smith, Adam Pattison, Wil Johnson, Zac Dawson, Luke Miles, Tommy Walsh
2010 - Cripps, Ledger, Crocker, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin

Those highlighted in red are those that struggle to get a game or are no longer with us

Apart from this years crop of youngsters & recycled players, our drafting has been terrible

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Surely you jest?

2008 - Farren Ray, Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Nick Heyne, Alistair Smith, Paul Cahill, Colm Begley
2009 - Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Nick Winmar, Jesse Smith, Adam Pattison, Wil Johnson, Zac Dawson, Luke Miles, Tommy Walsh
2010 - Cripps, Ledger, Crocker, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin

Those highlighted in red are those that struggle to get a game or are no longer with us

Apart from this years crop of youngsters & recycled players, our drafting has been terrible

I'm not sure that all of your 2010 guys are a walk in to best 22 yet.

Stanley was taken in the 2008 draft, well after players like Vickery, and Port's Jackson Trengove.
This was a year after Port drafted Lobbe.
He's been in the system the same amount of time as Jack Watts FFS but taken much much later.
He may still turn out to be prety damn good.

 

[hayes]

Surely you jest?

2008 - Farren Ray, Tom Lynch, Rhys Stanley, Nick Heyne, Alistair Smith, Paul Cahill, Colm Begley
2009 - Andrew Lovett, Brett Peake, Nick Winmar, Jesse Smith, Adam Pattison, Wil Johnson, Zac Dawson, Luke Miles, Tommy Walsh
2010 - Cripps, Ledger, Crocker, Siposs, Gamble, Polo, Simpkin

Those highlighted in red are those that struggle to get a game or are no longer with us

Apart from this years crop of youngsters & recycled players, our drafting has been terrible

I said drafting, not trading or players from other clubs and c'mon now, we all know it's just a matter of time until Walsh gets a game so you can put him in black.

I don't have a short memory unlike most around here and I can remember how well Stanley filled in while Roo was out. I think we were undefeated in the games he played. Smith I haven't given up hope for either. I didn't say it was perfect but I don't think it's as bad as you've made it out to be.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I said drafting, not trading or players from other clubs and c'mon now, we all know it's just a matter of time until Walsh gets a game so you can put him in black.

I don't have a short memory unlike most around here and I can remember how well Stanley filled in while Roo was out. I think we were undefeated in the games he played. Smith I haven't given up hope for either. I didn't say it was perfect but I don't think it's as bad as you've made it out to be.

I couldnt work out the red black thing unless its just players that Rors rates and doesn't.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Pretty hard to go and "get' a gun midfielder!! Unless we can pull a "Jolly" and land a big fish from another club (i'd be looking at the 4 teams to the west!) it will be very difficult.

Gram and Gilbo don't offer enough currency imo, and i think we'd be loath to offer up our 1st round pick again.

You are right. The reason why we have been so competitive over the last 7 years is because of our early picks from 2000-2002. For us to build a list we need to bottom out for a few years like WC or trade a marquee player such as Goddard. He could net us Gaff and Omeara if we played our cards right and went through with it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

You are right. The reason why we have been so competitive over the last 7 years is because of our early picks from 2000-2002. For us to build a list we need to bottom out for a few years like WC or trade a marquee player such as Goddard. He could net us Gaff and Omeara if we played our cards right and went through with it.

But what happens if we bottom out for a few years like Richmond or Melbourne?

If this year has taught me anything, its that a huge part of footy is the mental state of the players.
I want their mental state to be , "We are Saints we play finals".
When did the Swans bottom out?

( I'm not sure how Adam Schnieder would cope with bottoming out ).

 

[Squizz]

You are right. The reason why we have been so competitive over the last 7 years is because of our early picks from 2000-2002. For us to build a list we need to bottom out for a few years like WC or trade a marquee player such as Goddard. He could net us Gaff and Omeara if we played our cards right and went through with it.

I've been ignoring the dribble (including you not rating Winmar whilst the club re-signs him for another 2 years), but this is just crap. And you talk of bottoming out after previously posting we should always strive to make the finals. "If you don't want to make finals barrack for Pt Ad and enjoy watching players develop."
Bipolar much?

And the thread's about 2012. Bit late for tanking, yes?

Our team on the weekend includes 4 rookies, 5 players from other clubs they could care less about at the time (Dempster, Peake, Gram, Ray, Polo), and 7 others that we used picks north of 12 for (Steven, Montanga, Dal Santo, Fisher, Gilbert, Schneider, Blake with only Dal inside the top 20). 16 of the 22.

Of the remaining 6 only Kosi, Roo and BJ are picks inside the top 8.

Outside the team are the injured Gwilt and Hayes (neither being top 10 picks) and the young talents (including Ledger, Siposs and Cripps) who aren't top 20 picks.

But lets trade our 26yo gun. Them are shit cards you are playing. Fortius Quo What?

 

[Squizz]

I'm not sure how Adam Schnieder would cope with bottoming out.

Or any other decent player whose manager is fielding offers from other clubs that are in conention or have big dollars on the table.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

You are right. The reason why we have been so competitive over the last 7 years is because of our early picks from 2000-2002. For us to build a list we need to bottom out for a few years like WC or trade a marquee player such as Goddard. He could net us Gaff and Omeara if we played our cards right and went through with it.

Wrong.......

2000

trade for Hamill (#4) Gehrig (#18)

1) Rooey
2) Kosi
64) Mark Gale
75) Robert Powell
82) Daniel Wulf

PSD - 1. Brett Voss


2001

trade for Black (#17) Knobel (#45)

2) Ball
5) X. Clarke
13) Nicky Dal
21) Goose
37) Joey
49) Josh Houlihan

2002

trade for Barry Brooks (#6 & #31) Luke Penny (#17)

1). Goddard
22) Matthew Ferguson
46) Leigh Fisher
68) James Begley

PSD - 1). Stevie Powell


...as you can see only 5 are still on our list (Roo, Kosi, Joey, Dal, BJ)

Kosi is a "spud" (not in my eyes...but the experts on Bay 13 all agree!) so cant be seen as a sucess...

Joey was pick 37 - hardly an early pick.
Even Dal at 13, is this an "early pick"?

So your talking about Rooey and BJ i assume?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Or any other decent player whose manager is fielding offers from other clubs that are in conention or have big dollars on the table.

I specifically mentioned Adam because ( I think I'm right ) he has never played for a team ( at any level ) that didnt make finals.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Geeez it was such a shame Penny went down. He had massive ability.

 

[Squizz]

I specifically mentioned Adam because ( I think I'm right ) he has never played for a team ( at any level ) that didnt make finals.

I figured you were making the point that someone who was used to success wouldn't be that comfortable with the "strategy" of needing to bottom out to achieve success.

Although can't imagine the Saints who endured tough years early in their career going for it either.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Montagna is interesting. Late draft pick.
One pretty ordinary game in his first year. 2002
Plenty of games with single digit disposals in the next few of years.
One 30+ disposal game in 2006
4 in 2007, 3 in 2008, 10 in 2009, 14 in 2010.
So when exactly did we realise we had a gun on our hands?

Then you compare it with guys like Rhys Palmer. Hit the ground running, gets an injury, comes back, but in his third year he's no better than he was in his first year.

Grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[CrashTestDummy]

To defeat the wobbles or the handbaggers in this years' Grand Final.

 

[Rors]

I said drafting, not trading or players from other clubs and c'mon now, we all know it's just a matter of time until Walsh gets a game so you can put him in black.

I don't have a short memory unlike most around here and I can remember how well Stanley filled in while Roo was out. I think we were undefeated in the games he played. Smith I haven't given up hope for either. I didn't say it was perfect but I don't think it's as bad as you've made it out to be.

I completely agree with you on Walsh, & i certainly havent given up hope on anyone on our list other than Dawson. He just doesnt work as a true Full Back, there is too much reliance on the other backmen to help out. And believe me, i want to be proven wrong on Zac, but after 3 years, im still waiting.

Dont get me wrong, i know that our backline functions outstandingly well with Zac there, but we cant be satisfied with that. The game has evolved & now its all about the 'spread' from the contest now & ball movement. IMO we cant afford to have Zac being helped out by Chips, Gilbert & Raph every time there is a opposition forward entry. Two of these players need to stay down to create the spread & run.

There is a reason Collingwood & Geelong are on the top & it is because they can afford to have their backmen going one-on-one & two-on-one as their key backs are strong, solid, immovable types that spoil well & have crumbers down ready to create the spread & run... Reid goes up one-on-one, occassionally has Maxwell to help out, ball hits the deck & its swooped on by anyone of O'Brien/Tarrant/Heath Shaw/Ben Johnson/Leon Davis... This is what we lack IMO, we need to develop a monster Gorilla full back to allow more numbers free in our rebounding spread

Zac would be great playing as the Tom Lonergan type, playing on the 2nd & 3rd rated tall forward

As for Rhys Stanley, he has loads of potential & looks to have the goods, but i need to see him take the next step before im sold on him

As for the others i highlighted in red previously, i hope they all turn out to be late-blooming superstars, but realistically i would be satisfied if they hit a level consistent with our team being considered as having 'solid depth'

 

[CrashTestDummy]

I completely agree with you on Walsh, & i certainly havent given up hope on anyone on our list other than Dawson. He just doesnt work as a true Full Back, there is too much reliance on the other backmen to help out. And believe me, i want to be proven wrong on Zac, but after 3 years, im still waiting.

I disagree Rors. The proof is in the pudding with this guy. How many touches did goofyfoot Petrie or Edwards get after half-time?

Plain Vanilla flavour full-back.

Can we order one more?

 

[saintsrfreak]

Montagna is interesting. Late draft pick.
One pretty ordinary game in his first year. 2002
Plenty of games with single digit disposals in the next few of years.
One 30+ disposal game in 2006
4 in 2007, 3 in 2008, 10 in 2009, 14 in 2010.
So when exactly did we realise we had a gun on our hands?

Then you compare it with guys like Rhys Palmer. Hit the ground running, gets an injury, comes back, but in his third year he's no better than he was in his first year.

Grass is always greener on the other side.

I think Ledge will be the next Joey.

 

[hayes]

I think Ledge will be the next Joey.

That's a pretty good comparison if you ask me.