Why Geelong will overtake Hawthorn and become the on field AFL powerhouse

[Partridge]

Hadn't you heard that was also CS's fault?

Should be Stephen Wells surely. He's in charge of list management.

 

[Partridge]

Well, plenty of people question why we've continued to both recruit and retain guys who have been incessantly injured, some with seemingly very little upside.

I certainly hold that viewpoint. At the same time, it doesn't detract at all from Scott's achievement (and well deserved credit) in 2011.

 

[Jon Douglas]

Clarko IS the best coach, and his team is the best by a long way.
Not always like that.
When we were the best, anybody could have coached us, isn't that right?
First BT did, then CS did. Coach did not matter then.

The results say to me Clarkson is the best coach going around and that this Hawthorn team have become one of the greatest teams of all time.

However that is what they are - a great team that play great team footy. Man for man, when I look closely at it - I think the GFC sides of 2007-2011 has as many great players as the Hawks do now but they have that innovative coach that makes the difference and why we won 3 flags and they have 5.

I mean would Hawthorn think that any KPB they have had over the past 8 seasons is as good as Scarlett ? That they have a midfielder as good as Gary Jnr. ? As good HBF as Enright ? And just to add another - a ruck as good as Ottens ? Not in my book. And I could name a few more - probably more contestable and therefore more controversial Geelong selections over Hawks best team since '07.

Honestly if Geelong had a more innovative coach (and they are extremely hard to come by so no shame on CS on that score) and not the injuries to key player (and suspensions) we would have won another flag at least. But this is all guess work and I am satisfied and appreciative of 3 premierships in such a short time when before that we could not win one if we were handed it ! But I think that is the reality - Clarkson, like him or hate him has been the Premier coach in the AFL for quite a long time and does not seem to be out of tricks just yet.

I just hope GFC does not sit back and think we got the FAB 4 in the FA period and then we are getting back some very good players from LTIs - so this team will be good enough, without an innovative or flexible playing style that suits our players mentality and skills. If the team can gel over the 2016 season (first thing that has to happen when you have so many players coming into the side that have not played together or much together) and then CS to have slowly and methodically put ( maybe slightly) updated structures and make the team play more and more to its strengths - which will be more abundant I think in 2016.

Our ability to succeed is mainly about having the players to get you top 4 and then it is about the coach and their abilities to form a cohesive unit that knows what to do and when to do it - that takes into account the strengths of the opposition. Hawthorn will be there again in the finals and probably top 4 again ! So we need to know that for us to get better we have to be able to compete and beat the Hawks. And that will probably not happen Round 1 given the team selected will have had little time real footy time together. I expect it to be closer than recent games that will demonstrate we have the players now to compete, but we will likely not have the solidly drilled system and structures (and belief) of the Hawks have mastered in the last 3 seasons - so early in the season.

And we only play them once next season - so the next time we meet it maybe a final. By then if Scott is a good coach (and we have few key injuries by season's end) he will have developed a system of play and structures that can give us an edge in a big game - if the players play to their abilities. No CS' fault if the team play like a dog. But the proof should be in the pudding - we should be better and more competitive first game against them and we should run them to the wire by the time, if we do meet them, finals come around.

I think one of GFC's greatest weaknesses was unfortunately highlighted in 2008 GF day. Yes it is understandable that you would stay with a proven, incredibly strong and performing team and game plan for the year BUT suddenly when it started to unravel in the third quarter - changes had to be made to get us back into the game and that did not happen. We need a coach that has a system and styctures that best suit our players and one that favours our strengths and at the same time attacks the opposition where they maybe weakest. Easier said than done - of course. But that is why they get paid the big bucks !

Look at the likely contenders - maybe Hawks, WC and Sydney and see what they have done, learn from it and start to put a plan together and see how it goes - and make modifications to it, tinker around a bit with the things that do not seem to be working and see how that goes, etc.

With few injuries we are likely to have the players to compete with Hawthorn - its just that we do not have the best coach in the AFL nor the experience of having played in 3 successive Premierships and the consistency of a game style that works so well. We have some catching up to do.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's embarrassing the lack of respect Scott gets for 2011.

He did an amazing job with that group that was aging and had just lost it's coach, it's best player and had an epic finals hiding.

Nobody and I mean nobody tipped us to finish top 4 let alone win the thing.

Ppl also don't take into account the ridiculous run of injuries we have had since 2010.

Well, plenty of people question why we've continued to both recruit and retain guys who have been incessantly injured, some with seemingly very little upside.

Let me just say that chris Scott does get the credit he deserves and people do not question his recruitment decisions.

Not 1 single person in the media has ever questioned Scotts coaching ability and everyone who has worked with him speaks highly of him and most Geelong supporters rathe , its just a few clueless posters on bigfooty who have a problem with Scott .Their opinion is worthless.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Thread made by the same guy who made a thread proclaiming we'd win the 2015 flag.

Biggy-Boy and friends you do realise their is a place called bay13 for attention seekers ?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

When we win 4 in a row we'll talk, until then I'll outta this crazy thead.

Give us draft picks 1,2,3,5 and 6 and see what we can do .

 

[geelong_crazy26]

See?

Pay no respect to these group of posters who do nothing but whinge .Their arguments are not based on reason or logic , its done for other reasons.

99% of Geelong supporters rate Scott.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I wouldn't say anybody could have coached us, but the collection of individual talent we had through the 2007-2011 era clearly surpasses the individual talent Hawthorn have in their current era.

The coach mattered, and both those guys deserve a stack of credit, but neither are in Clarko's league.

Wasn't too long ago that some were calling for Clarkson to be sacked. Things can change quickly.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The results say to me Clarkson is the best coach going around and that this Hawthorn team have become one of the greatest teams of all time.

However that is what they are a - great team that play great team footy. Man for man, when I look closely at it - I think the GFC sides of 2007-2011 has as many great players as the Hawks do now but they have that innovative coach that makes the difference and why we won 3 flags and they have 5.

I mean would Hawthorn think that any KPB they have had over the past 8 seasons is as good as Scarlett ? That they have a midfielder as good as Gary Jnr. ? As good HBF as Enright ? And just to add another - a ruck as good as Ottens ? Not in my book. And I could name a few more - probably more contestable and therefore more controversial Geelong selections over Hawks best team since '07.

Honestly if Geelong had a more innovative coach (and they are extremely hard to come by so no shame on CS on that score) and not injuries to key player (and suspensions) we would have won another flag at least. But this is all guess work and I am satisfied and appreciative of 3 premierships in such a short time when before that we could not win one if we were handed it ! But I think that is the reality - Clarkson, like him or hate him has been the Premier coach in the AFL for quite a long time and does not seem to be out of tricks just yet.

I just hope GFC does not sit back and think we got the FAB 4 in the FA period and then we are getting back some very good players from LTIs - so this team will be good enough, without an innovative or flexible playing style that suits our players mentality and skills. If the team can gel over the 2016 season (first thing that has to happen when you have so many players coming into the side that have not played together or much together) and then CS to have slowly and methodically put ( maybe slightly) updated structures and make the team play more and more to its strengths - which will be more abundant I think in 2016.

Our ability to succeed is mainly about having the players to get you top 4 and then it is about the coach and their abilities to form a cohesive unit that knows what to do and when to do it - that takes into account the strengths of the opposition. Hawthorn will be there again in the finals and probably top 4 again ! So we need to know that for us to get better we have to be able to compete and beat the Hawks. And that will probably not happen Round 1 given the team selected will have had little time real footy time together. I expect it to be closer than recent games that will demonstrate we have the players now to compete, but we will likely not have the solidly drilled system and structures (and belief) of the Hawks have mastered in the last 3 seasons - so early in the season.

And we only play them once next season - so the next time we meet it maybe a final. By then if Scott is a good coach (and we have few key injuries by season's end) he will have developed a system of play and structures that can give us an edge in a big game - if the players play to their abilities. No CS' fault if the team play like a dog. But the proof should be in the pudding - we should be better and more competitive first game against them and we should run them to the wire by the time, if we do meet them, finals come around.

I think one of GFC's greatest weaknesses was unfortunately highlighted in 2008 GF day. Yes it is understandable that you would stay with a proven, incredibly strong and performing team and game plan for the year BUT suddenly when it started to unravel in the third quarter - changes had to be made to get us back into the game and that did not happen. We need a coach that has a system and styctures that best suit our players and one that favours our strengths and at the same time attacks the opposition where they maybe weakest. Easier said than done - of course. But that is why they get paid the big bucks !

Look at the likely contenders - maybe Hawks, WC and Sydney and see what they have done, learn from it and start to put a plan together and see how it goes - and make modifications to it, tinker around a bit with the things that do not seem to be working and see how that goes, etc.

With few injuries we are likely to have the players to compete with Hawthorn - its just that we do not have the best coach in the AFL nor the experience of having played in 3 successive Premierships and the consistency of a game style that works so well. We have some catching up to do.

Things will change, Clarkson took 9 years to win his 2nd premiership.

Lets see how he goes once he loses his on field generals over the next few years.

Things never stay still in the AFL ,Clarkson may not be the best coach in a few years time.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Wasn't too long ago that some were calling for Clarkson to be sacked. Things can change quickly.

Those people were morons.

Jeff Kennett was the best example. I was hoping he would get his way and Clarko would be gone, because there is no way that club goes on to win the threepeat without him.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Those people were morons.

Jeff Kennett was the best example. I was hoping he would get his way and Clarko would be gone, because there is no way that club goes on to win the threepeat without him.

Same deal with people who bag Scott.

Clarkson took 9 yeasr to win his 2nd premiership.

 

[Stan The Caddy]

Back in 2007 Geelong set a goal to go from a good club to a great club ,part of this was to win more premierships every 15 years than any other club , starting from 2005-2019. I am confident we can still do this as we are about to enter a 5 year + premiership window.I also firmly believe we are in a position to become the most successful club in the AFL .

The best 3 clubs in terms of on field performances over recent times has been Hawthorn,Geelong and Sydney .Collingwood and West Coat are have also performed well on the filed .Lets take a close look at how Hawthorn and Sydney have build their success.

Sydney is easy =COLA which is about to go

Hawthorn is a bit more interesting ,while I except they are a very well run club I still think we are better .Lets look at how Hawthorn became an on field powerhouse over the past 10 years .

It all started when they received the following draft picks - 1,2,3,5 and 6 .Yeahp that's right while we had nothing below pick 7, imagine if we had these draft picks ????????

Than once they used these picks to recruit talented young players they became highly appealing to players from other clubs , their whole entire spine almost in their premiership years was build with players from other clubs.The AFL moves at a fast pace , Hawthorn have already started to lose their appeal to attract players from other clubs.When they failed to recruit a mature age recruit his year I said its the beginning of the end .

So Sydney will lose COLA, Hawthorn will never got those early draft picks again and will lose their appeal to attract players from other clubs .Geelong will always have its a great ability to draft and develop players better any other club .We will also do better than any other club out of free agency due to our unique geographical location, which will last forever regardless of our ladder position.

Good times ahead for us cats supporters , never forget what a privilege it is to support this club.

Go Cats.

Geelong on the other hand

I feel that this clip is appropriate....

 

[Daitro]

Let's focus on overtaking the other eight teams that finished between us and them.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Obviously i hope Geelong dominate and win plenty of flags but nothing is guarnteed - there is no such thing as a great club - theres 18 franchises - and whoever recruits the best will have the most success

In 6 or 7 years time Geelong and Hawthorn could be 2nd last and last - it all comes down to recruiting - where as culture and oh their a well run club - thats all bull shiit

 

[ChookNorris]

Obviously i hope Geelong dominate and win plenty of flags but nothing is guarnteed - there is no such thing as a great club - theres 18 franchises - and whoever recruits the best will have the most success

In 6 or 7 years time Geelong and Hawthorn could be 2nd last and last - it all comes down to recruiting - where as culture and oh their a well run club - thats all bull shiit

I find it more unlikely the successful clubs now will be bottoming out in say 5-7 years and repeat the cycle, free agency will create a tiered competition, clubs near the top will just be able to hand pick players and pay unders, struggling clubs will be happy to feed these clubs to get the early draft picks and appease the supporters, committing to a rebuild, a model for success which on its own may not even be feesable anymore.

 

[The rabbi]

Obviously i hope Geelong dominate and win plenty of flags but nothing is guarnteed - there is no such thing as a great club - theres 18 franchises - and whoever recruits the best will have the most success

In 6 or 7 years time Geelong and Hawthorn could be 2nd last and last - it all comes down to recruiting - where as culture and oh their a well run club - thats all bull shiit

I would have thought that a well run club with a good culture would recruit and have the ability to develop good players.
Take a look at Melbourne. A team that has had a ship load of top 10 draft picks and is still a crap team.
And personally, I think that Hawthorn are a great club, even if I hate them and if they sank into the sea tomorrow I would not blink an eyelid.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I find it more unlikely the successful clubs now will be bottoming out in say 5-7 years and repeat the cycle, free agency will create a tiered competition, clubs near the top will just be able to hand pick players and pay unders, struggling clubs will be happy to feed these clubs to get the early draft picks and appease the supporters, committing to a rebuild, a model for success which on its own may not even be feesable anymore.

But Port Adelaide throws a spanner in your theory

What - about 5 years ago they were basically on their knees - the tarps were out - and all the rest of it - they were even struggling to attract decent assistant coaches

And then through very good draft recruiting ( Hartlett Wines Wingard Gray - to name a few )they turned around their fortunes big time and quickly . Their now regarded as an attractive club ( can win a flag ) thats why Ryder and Dixon ( also Polec and White) got on board

 

[The rabbi]

But Port Adelaide throws a spanner in your theory

What - about 5 years ago they were basically on their knees - the tarps were out - and all the rest of it - they were even struggling to attract decent assistant coaches

And then through very good draft recruiting ( Hartlett Wines Wingard Gray - to name a few )they turned around their fortunes big time and quickly . Their now regarded as an attractive club ( can win a flag ) thats why Ryder and Dixon ( also Polec and White) got on board

They (Port) had an ordinary year last year when many thought that they would give it a shake.
I would not be surprised if they did give it a serious shake this year though.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

I would have thought that a well run club with a good culture would recruit and have the ability to develop good players.
Take a look at Melbourne. A team that has had a ship load of top 10 draft picks and is still a crap team.
And personally, I think that Hawthorn are a great club, even if I hate them and if they sank into the sea tomorrow I would not blink an eyelid.

Mate - the thing which annoys me this Culture bulldust - the best example is Nth Melb - when they played in what 7 Prelim finals for 2 flags - they had Carey Schwas Archer King McKernan etc etc etc - alot of talented players - and the media use to say - theve got a " great culture " - the famous Shinboner Spirit - what alot of baloney - they had alot of top players thats why they won flags - not this culture nonsense

As Tommy Hafey used to say - whats the secret to success - good players - and plenty of them

Thus anyone of the 18 clubs assemble alot of top players at the one time - they will be playing off for flags

 

[dazbroncos]

There is a thread for CS coaching discussion. Little tolerance for getting too far off track in this one...
Just a general reminder

Go Catters

 

[Jon Douglas]

Things will change, Clarkson took 9 years to win his 2nd premiership.

Lets see how he goes once he loses his on field generals over the next few years.

Things never stay still in the AFL ,Clarkson may not be the best coach in a few years time.

Fair points to make. But the thrust of what I wrote I think still stands - he has been proven by his results to be the best coach in at least a fair time. Brisbane Lions were gifted quite a few excellent players and got a very determined coach in Lethal. Hawks were not the same although they had some very good ND picks - much better than we have had. We did our drafting with lower picks thru Wells having a few excellent years and being able to add another player here and there from other later drafts - and getting a few key father and son pick ups in Scarlett, Ablett and Hawkins.

I think you have to acknowledge that the Hawks were the first to really go out and get older players from opposition clubs to ensure that any weakness was addressed. And they have chosen very wisely in most cases. Gibson, Burgoyne, Hale, Guerra, Big Boy McEvoy, Lake, Dew, Frawley and Gunston (O'Rourke who has yet to make an impact but was a highly touted ND pick - and I have probably missed one or two players over the journey of their success). That is 9 players from other clubs and all them have had a decent to excellent impact on their team. They are all Premiership players - some multiple or triple Premiership players. That is being ahead of the curve or the pack IMO.

Then to add to this they maybe lucked it a bit with Clarkson - who I would rate as the most innovative and successful coach going around. Now it may all change if Hawks lose a few key players to injury or retirement but I would like to think that GFC look at coaches like Clarkson and see what he has done over a reasonable stretch of time. What he did to create and then modify his game plan and style and the structures, as well as any new tactics - that has been so successful for Hawthorn.

Learn from the past and then create for the future. As pointed out things do not stay the same for long in a very competitive world - and I reckon AFL clubs, well the better run ones, are as ruthless and work as hard as any corporation in the business world. There is probably more competition in the AFL than in the normal market place (its just that it is supported by a system called the AFL that ensures that all clubs get a fair bit of money each year regardless of their performances and that a salary cap is followed that helps to even out and make the competition more fierce).

I think we have the administration, the recruiters, perhaps the trainers, the facilities, the home ground advantage and the culture to be a successful club again. We probably have now a very big chunk of the players we need to win a Premiership - so for me the coaches now need to do a good job. Not that you can say they have failed us - but unlike the other areas mentioned I am not sure the coaching has been the equivalent quality of those other departments that make up a football team. I think we will find out more about this in 2016.

Perhaps its just me but at times, when things are not working out on the field - we just do not seem to try a few different things quickly or often enough. We have been a bit conservative I think at times with our coaching and the game plan. Hell we still have been very successful over a long period of time but we just seemed to fight really hard the demise over the past 3 years but we could not arrest our fall. Major injuries of course was also another major factor for our lesser performances in more recent times - and no coach can do much about that other than attempting to have as much depth at the club in as many positions as possible.

Losing Ablett, Mummy and Bundy were not on the agenda either and it is hard to replace such players. If we had these 3 players in the side since 2012 to now I think we would have performed better as a team.

But all clubs face difficulties and complaining about them does not make any difference in the end. So I just am hoping that CS sees the heap of talent coming into the side from FA and from our LTI list - and also sees a bright future for some of the youngsters now starting to break into the team - and that rubs off on him and he gets really enthused and this drives his desire to seek out a better game plan and try a few things. This could be a very a flexible footy side - with many players being able to swap roles. Take advantage of our natural advantages in such areas and create a plan that has a few options with players playing different roles.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Jubs has post of the thread.

Firstly I'm not sold in the slightest that we will become the on field powerhouse. Making finals would be a nice start.

Secondly, didn't take long for the same Scott bashing to rear its head once more.

Hope the OP proves me wrong however and we do become the of field powerhouse once more.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

If Thompson had coached us in 2011, he would have backed Mooney and Milburn over Hawkins and probably Duncan = we lose.

 

[dazbroncos]

While im all for being 1/2 full I think we might have gone a bit early here.

I have no doubt the aim id to be the best - but given the list ( which is is massive change) the age profile ( which is changing from old to young), the coaching shuffling, the total unknown of the returning LTI players and the new recruits, I find it hard to answer with so many variables.

Not saying it can't or wont happen, but I just think at this early stage we are not there.

Long term, we can do it but we are closer to the start of doing that than the end. WE have talent across all lines coming thru and its a real reason to be buoyant - but the meshing of the best 22 - 30 on field has not really even begun yet.

Id luv nothing more than to climb Everest and stand on the Hawks head to do it - but we have so far to go to get to that point im not sure we would not burn all our tickets just getting par with them - let alone going past them.

Again, Im all for going for it and truly believe that if we get that premiership "luck" where it all works out for us, it can be done. Its just the variables we can't control im not sure of yet…

GO Catters

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Guys for all this talk about how great Hawthorn are lets not forget the draft picks and than the players they pinched from other clubs to win their premierships .

They required not 1 but 2 priority draft picks.