Why Geelong will overtake Hawthorn and become the on field AFL powerhouse

[David the Cat]

While im all for being 1/2 full I think we might have gone a bit early here.

I have no doubt the aim id to be the best - but given the list ( which is is massive change) the age profile ( which is changing from old to young), the coaching shuffling, the total unknown of the returning LTI players and the new recruits, I find it hard to answer with so many variables.

Not saying it can't or wont happen, but I just think at this early stage we are not there.

Long term, we can do it but we are closer to the start of doing that than the end. WE have talent across all lines coming thru and its a real reason to be buoyant - but the meshing of the best 22 - 30 on field has not really even begun yet.

Id luv nothing more than to climb Everest and stand on the Hawks head to do it - but we have so far to go to get to that point im not sure we would not burn all our tickets just getting par with them - let alone going past them.

Again, Im all for going for it and truly believe that if we get that premiership "luck" where it all works out for us, it can be done. Its just the variables we can't control im not sure of yet…

GO Catters

Absolutely right.....while I expect a finals appearance in 2016, and hopefully winning one, I think those expecting a Premiership next year are being overly optimistic. We are building but we are not there just yet. Patience cat fans...the signs will become more evident as the season progresses...enjoy the evolution of our next band of champs....there'll be a few bumps on the way but its going to be fun....

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I'll remain sceptical for now.

Remember these words? 'I don't need to change much ...why fix something that isn't broken. These guys coach themselves, so my job is to just fine tune a few things'.

That's ineptness from the beginning.

He was extremely lucky he inherited a list of champions who were hungry to bow out with 1 final premiership.

If anyone could of coached Geelong to the 2011 premiership than we wouldn't of been 81 points behind early in the 3rd quarter of the 2010 preliminary final. Your argument is foolish .

In fact in 2011 Collingwood had the better season than us , but we beat them 3 times .Scott did a marvelous job to figure out a way around Collingwood's press, extreme pressure on the ball carrier and the way they used the boundary line to avoid pressure .

Is Scott the only coach that would of won the 2011 premiership with Geelong ? No , but this applies to every single premiership coach including Clarkson.

 

[vinum coupe]

I certainly hold that viewpoint. At the same time, it doesn't detract at all from Scott's achievement (and well deserved credit) in 2011.

I give Scott a lot of credit for 2011. I actually don't think bomber could have pulled that off had he stayed.
In my opinion the players needed a fresh voice.
And you could argue any new voice would have worked.

But he showed respect to the players, and came from a diplomatic position.
Perfect appointment by Cook.

But since then, I'm not convinced. I'm actually hoping Lloyd straightens the ship a bit.

 

[Bobby_]

Ridiculous thread!
Geelong missed finals for the first time in a nearly a decade and it's only a taste of more things to come. We had our time in the spotlight and we achieved what most other clubs could only dream about. For starters, we have absolutely no young and up and coming key forwards of any kind. We have Vardy, but he is 24 years of age and will always be on the sidelines due to a hip deficiency and recently tearing his ACL. Once you do an ACL, the knee is never the same again. It is why McIntosh and Smith were/are a shadow of the players they once were.
We have Hawkins and Clark but both only have about 2-3 years of footy left in them given they will be 28/29 years of age in 2016. Remember Podsiadly? Remember Mooney?
We don't have a youthful back-line either. We banked on too many older players in order to try and pinch another flag after 2012, it didn't work out and as a consequence of that, we are left with two young key defenders in Henderson and Kolodjashnij. Taylor and Lonergan will retire in the next 1-2 years. Our other defenders are also about to retire (Enright, Mackie, Lonergan).

Our age profile to be considered a future powerhouse is too obscured.

 

[JUBJUB]

Ridiculous thread!

Uh oh the Grinch

 

[vinum coupe]

Bobby, you mention having success most other clubs can only dream of.

You can't knock the club for trying to pinch another flag.
In fact, I won't knock them for their trading in 2015 unless it fails.

Top line footballers play for about 10 years.
It's pretty damn difficult to assemble a group of them who all hit their peak at the same time.

Let's see how we go before we burn the witch.

 

[Bobby_]

you cannot knock them for trying to get another one no but unfortunately, we now see the consequences of trying to do so. It is why we are a long way away from even making another preliminary final let alone a grand final.
I like most of our selections in the 2015 draft but we need to be realistic, Dangerfield is walking into a club that is no dissimilar to what his previous club was and as such, too many teams are now ahead of us in a lot of areas on/off the field. Hate to be a pessimist but we saw first hand where we are at in 2014/2015 when our list was in a slightly better place than what it is now (obviously talking about season 2014).

 

[vinum coupe]

I know where we were at. I knew it before this season.
And I hated being right.

But.... They've gambled a fair bit. Although I reckon we got the group of 4 for significant unders, they now need to deliver. In my opinion, top four isn't a certainty, it's a must.

Or it's a bust.


See, I'm a poet, didn't know it.

 

[Jon Douglas]

If Thompson had coached us in 2011, he would have backed Mooney and Milburn over Hawkins and probably Duncan = we lose.

This is not all that unlikely to me - as one thing Bomber was consistently - loyal to his players. the ones he had developed and brought to fruition and I think you are right. My bet is that he would have erred on the side of caution and conservatism re selections for his 2011 team. And yes that could well have cost us a flag.

So that is something CS can hang his hat on - a Premiership we may not have gotten had Bomber stayed. But of course we will never really know but Thompson has said that if was still in charge in 2011 he would not have had the commitment, energy and desire to do what was required to win another Premiership while he was coach. So it seems a pretty sound choice to believe we owe Scoot for the 2011 Premiership Cup in our cupboard down at the Cattery.

But it was still really Bomber's team, players and tactics in 2011 that won us another glorious Premiership. It just needed another decent coach to make it work. Thommo was shot.

But now CS faces another challenge (challenge one to win a premiership while we still had enough guns left to get the job done and then secondly to rebuild the side while maintaining success and being respectful to our great players that bought us so much success and pleasure. He came pretty close to achieving this and maybe with a few less injuries we may have even snuck another Cup (post 2011) ?

Now his new (third) role is to complete the rebuild ASAP and still maintain respect for the remaining great era players - and get back into the top 8 and then go deep into the finals sometime soon.

I think people can forget that we have had few good ND picks for our recruiters to get new highly rated youngsters into the club (a situation made worse by GC and Giants taking so many of the good picks over the past 5 years) - so it has been hard for us draft in as many players as we would like or need to create another highly competitive team that could see another premiership if a few things go right.

Then add on a heap of injuries to a heap of players that very much hurt us the since 2011 success - and you can see why GFC has struggled to win another Premiership under CS' coaching.

In fact if you look at how our rucks and midfield have performed over the past 3 seasons - I think you will find we have done ok considering the headwinds we faced in those years. We won a heap of games against decent opponents - all the time losing the centre breaks and the clearances (except against weaker teams). In the modern game when you play full team defence - we just did not have the midfield to make our backline the best in the business as it had been before - AND a good enough midfield to give our forward set up more opportunities than our better opponents had.

Cannot blame that on Scott. He has had a hard job after 2011. We have had to replace not only key players (and what a list that is !) but key personnel in many parts of the club from the president, to Balme, to fitness gurus, etc.

If you were to list the changes at the club from the admin to the players to the coaches it would be a pretty decent list in number and the importance of the personnel that have left over CS' tenure as senior coach at GFC.

That is not to say that other clubs have not suffered some similar issues from time to time but we have had a hard row to hoe.

I like the latest thinking of the club - get in a director of coaching and see if that can improve our senior and line coaches (even the VFL coaching) to a point where it makes a difference on the field. All these 5 % improvements add up in the end.

 

[Jon Douglas]

Let's learn from the Bomber era - great success and a really shocking loss in the 2008 final (that hurts me to this day) that with a few position changes could have - maybe have halted or slowed the Hawks onslaught in the third term so it was a manageable margin for us to peg back in the last quarter.

But it was like we were a deer in the headlights (and yes Harley going down was a body blow but it was not game over situation IMO) and it seemed to me that the coach (maybe coaches) just kept believing that the incredibly powerful side we had been all year would stop the Hawks run and turn the tables on them as the game progressed. It is understandable because that was probably our best year in a great era - and Thompson no doubt believed in his players, his game plans and match ups - as they had nearly always come up trumps. Even when they were down. So he refused to make changes to our player positions - and he let the game slip away IMO.

Now I would hope that we have learned that hard lesson and we would have already worked out what to do if the opposition gets a run on and what players could be moved where that could spark a resurgence or at least close down an opposition prime mover, or two. We are the biggest professional sport in Australia and we need to move with the times. And that means having good coaches who have done their homework and know if X happens then we do Y. If A happens we do B.

Not to be over reactive - but to watch and see as early as possible what is not working and what are the best ways to rebalance the team and close down some better performing opposition players if need be. I still dream of Bomber saying to Rooke at quarter time - just follow Hodge around and stop him touching the ball. Do what you have to in you own kamikaze way - and make sure that guy is not a key architect in us losing nearly the unlosable game.

Injuries may have curtailed our team development over the past 3 seasons - and our depth. But now it looks like we are emerging from an over blown injury list and some of our youngsters are looking quite good - and we went and tried out FA again but a little smarter this time (only Scooter came to us under an injury cloud out of the 4 FAs).

This issue will be largely dealt with by the end of 2106 when those LTI listed players, who have unfortunately taken a spot on our senior list as well as affair bit of money for little return, will be closer to being sorted - so that we have more players playing and being assessed, that will lead to ultimately more draft picks for Wells, and therefore more opportunities for him and his staff to nab a few good players late in the draft. He must have a fair number of picks each year if he is to work magic with high picks.

If we had less LTIs in the first place, or even moved some on earlier than we have (and that is a very hard thing to do as it is no one's fault bad injuries) perhaps Wells and Co. could have another say 4-6 picks over the past 4-5 years. Given Wells hit rate this could well have resulted in another 2 really good players at the club that would have been blooded by now and playing good footy for us in the seniors.

Imagine we had had decided to delist Simpson, Cowan, Brown and McCarthy two/three years back. Harsh calls but perhaps we would have seen 1-3 new Bundy's or Kolo's in the team with 50 senior games under their belt. Again work to your strengths and that means Wells getting consistent number picks - ND and Rookie, each year.

These are the type of things GFC need work on and out - so if it starts to look like it is happening again - we have reviewed our physical training and conditioning program and people and we know that is now ticked off, we have a policy re LTIs in place except for exceptional circumstances, we have worked out our best game plan and the structures needed to make it work. We have a few plan B's - that is some positional moves that have proven effective before in slowing an opposition run down or simply shutting down a key opposition player or two.

In the end all things are linked in some way - so we need to keep working until we have all the things that have stood in our way have been identified, studied and come up with new ideas to make the situation better for us. There will always be new situations and some we may not have encountered before - so we get the best people in ASAP and come up with our best moves to rectify any situation that is detrimental to the club making progress.

And on and on it goes. But we have to be one of the best at this side of the game - the off field concerns.

I think CS has an excellent chance to rebuild the playing list, the game plan and how we go about being the best and most professional club in the league.

Some do not think he will be up to it. So for you guys this is the year - because at season's end, with few injury concerns, this could be the best side CS has had coach in a quite a few years. And he will assessed with reference to who has now on the park, how he reformulates our game plan and ultimately the final result we achieve on that slippery ladder.

 

[Bobby_]

I know where we were at. I knew it before this season.
And I hated being right.

But.... They've gambled a fair bit. Although I reckon we got the group of 4 for significant unders, they now need to deliver. In my opinion, top four isn't a certainty, it's a must.

Or it's a bust.


See, I'm a poet, didn't know it.

I actually see it differently.
I don't think top four is a must. I think making the finals will be enough as our list isn't as good as what it is being made out to be. If we make finals, ahead of teams I suspect will be much improved (Richmond, Western Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, Gold Coast, GWS, Collingwood) then we have done well. Unfortunately, teams like Hawthorn, West Coast, North Melbourne and one of Fremantle/Sydney are absolute certainties to play finals again.

It will be an interesting year to say the least. I pray we see a lot of younger players stand up. We have to see 50% of the 4th-5th year players become regular best 22 players. If this happens, we have a terrific opportunity in 2017/2018 of going deep into September again.

 

[vinum coupe]

I actually see it differently.
I don't think top four is a must. I think making the finals will be enough as our list isn't as good as what it is being made out to be. If we make finals, ahead of teams I suspect will be much improved (Richmond, Western Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, Gold Coast, GWS, Collingwood) then we have done well. Unfortunately, teams like Hawthorn, West Coast, North Melbourne and one of Fremantle/Sydney are absolute certainties to play finals again.

It will be an interesting year to say the least. I pray we see a lot of younger players stand up. We have to see 50% of the 4th-5th year players become regular best 22 players. If this happens, we have a terrific opportunity in 2017/2018 of going deep into September again.

I see what you're saying.
But I liken our 2016 to 2007.

At the end of 2006 I think a player said we've got to win a flag.
The group nodded. Then rooke said, "and in 2007" and apparently there were stares of "wtf?"

You've got to play for now bobby.
There's teams that have already gone past us. What do they have to show for it?

5 year plans don't work. History shows that.
But sometimes things fall into place.

My suggestion is, just enjoy or hate the ride of 2016.
Anything could happen (based on our list). Whether Scott pulls it all together is a different story.


Merry Xmas by the way.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Ridiculous thread!
Geelong missed finals for the first time in a nearly a decade and it's only a taste of more things to come. We had our time in the spotlight and we achieved what most other clubs could only dream about. For starters, we have absolutely no young and up and coming key forwards of any kind. We have Vardy, but he is 24 years of age and will always be on the sidelines due to a hip deficiency and recently tearing his ACL. Once you do an ACL, the knee is never the same again. It is why McIntosh and Smith were/are a shadow of the players they once were.
We have Hawkins and Clark but both only have about 2-3 years of footy left in them given they will be 28/29 years of age in 2016. Remember Podsiadly? Remember Mooney?
We don't have a youthful back-line either. We banked on too many older players in order to try and pinch another flag after 2012, it didn't work out and as a consequence of that, we are left with two young key defenders in Henderson and Kolodjashnij. Taylor and Lonergan will retire in the next 1-2 years. Our other defenders are also about to retire (Enright, Mackie, Lonergan).

Our age profile to be considered a future powerhouse is too obscured.

How on earth can you try and make out that Geelong have an old list ? we have a side that can contend for a premiership for the next 5 years .Beyond that will depend on our recruiting.

I am not interested in 18 year olds , I want 24 year olds .

Lets look at the age of our midfield at the start of season 2016, remember its the midfield that has to do most of the hard running and sets up the game.

Selwood-27
Dangerfield -26
Blicavs -25
S.Selwood -26
Duncan -24
Caddy-23
Guthrie -23

This is a premiership midfield that going to be significantly better next year , Dangerfield and S.Selwood are brand new additions, Duncan will be back from injury, while Caddy,Guthrie and Blicavs are all about to reach their prime .

Hawkins will be 27 at the start if this season , no reason why he cant play well into his 30''s like a number of other good key position forwards have such as Riewoldt and Pavlich. We will get another 5 good years plus out of him. If Vardy and Clark break down than we will just go and recruit a good mature age forward from another club .

As for the defense -Taylor 29,Henderson 26,Bews 22,Thurlow 21 and Kolo 20. That's a lot to work with .

I have to pick up on your comment about doing an ACL. After an ACL operation the knee actually comes back stronger ,its only when a player has a structural deficiency that it becomes an ongoing problem. Smith given the fact that he had an injuiry free year last season should be fine .

The take home point is that if you look at the age of the Hawthorn side over the past 3 years , you realize that we are actually very well positioned
especially with our midfield which is the key to any sides success. If we have a deficiency in a particular part of the ground we will fix is with a mature age recruit.

 

[Bobby_]

Lets look at the age of our midfield at the start of season 2016, remember its the midfield that has to do most of the hard running and sets up the game.

Selwood-27
Dangerfield -26
Blicavs -25
S.Selwood -26
Duncan -24
Caddy-23
Guthrie -23

This is a premiership midfield that going to be significantly better next year

I don't think our midfield is that good to be truthful. Blicavs, Caddy, Duncan, Guthrie are very promising players but they are nothing against the best midfields of the competition. They are still B grade footballers. I would throw Guthrie and Caddy in as C graders. They may explode and become our next Kelly, Corey and Ling's but it's still yet to be seen.
Blicavs is on the up but he's certainly a long way away from matching similar output to other tall midfielders like that of Kennedy, Watson, Barlow, Pendlebury etc.
Selwood and Dangerfield are obviously champions but our midfield is not in the same class as genuine premiership midfields. I sometimes wonder if you have been in a coma for a few years crazy because your rather high appraisal of our team & players is the kind of stuff you would expect to hear about in 2009 or thereabouts. The past three years, our midfield has been a complete a non show. It has been left to only a handful of players time and time again.

Is Caddy, Duncan, Guthrie ever going to take that next step? We really can't say for sure they will. At the moment, they are good footballers but in order to become a force, they have to become stars like Parker, Mitchell and Hannebery are for Sydney. Neale, Hill, Fyfe + Bennell are for Fremantle. Wines, Hartlett, Gray, Wingard are for Port Adelaide. Bontempelli, Dahlhaus, Liberatore, Wallis are for the Dogs. There are plenty of lists with better emerging talent than us at the moment. Most of this is simply due to having access to the best talent in the country via high draft pick selections. Even the weaker teams like Gold Coast, Brisbane, GWS have much more brilliant midfields than Geelong. They simply lack structure through the spine which is why they still linger near the bottom of the ladder.

Anyways, it is obvious we see things very differently in respect to our team. I was like you a couple of years ago but unfortunately, the last few years have turned out to be a much different picture than what I had envisioned. I dunno, maybe you are right crazy . . . perhaps Guthrie, Caddy, Duncan collectively average 25-30 disposals per game going into their sixth seasons just as Bartel, Corey, Ling did?

 

[OzeSparky]

For me the addition of Llyod is really going to show this year.
Great get for the club

 

[00VicWard001]

Thread made by the same guy who made a thread proclaiming we'd win the 2015 flag.

So? Every year, for the last 4 years, I've been optimistic that we'd win the flag. And sometimes, we got pretty close. Injuries have absolutely destroyed our chances.

We have a good chance this year too. The kids are a year older, th recruits are very good, our injured players are now better.

The Swans will always be a tough team, but our style matches up well against them. Freo really look like their on their last legs. West Coast are on the up, so are Port and the Dogs. Richmond don't have the top shelf talent and Hardwick may be done this year. North will give it a shake, but are starting to look long in the tooth.

The Hawks will get a smashing this year from a contender and they will start to wobble. Lake was a big deal for them. Shoenmakers hasn't suddenly come good, he's just getting opportunities because they've been getting in the heads of the opposition. The Eagles kicked themselves out of that GF and they really had no plan B - you don't beat the Hawks on a big ground by letting them play without an opponent. The Hawks are a year older, they would need everything go right to come close to winning.

 

[00VicWard001]

Mate - the thing which annoys me this Culture bulldust - the best example is Nth Melb - when they played in what 7 Prelim finals for 2 flags - they had Carey Schwas Archer King McKernan etc etc etc - alot of talented players - and the media use to say - theve got a " great culture " - the famous Shinboner Spirit - what alot of baloney - they had alot of top players thats why they won flags - not this culture nonsense

As Tommy Hafey used to say - whats the secret to success - good players - and plenty of them

Thus anyone of the 18 clubs assemble alot of top players at the one time - they will be playing off for flags

Culture is a massive part of success. It's not bulldust mate, the perfect example is GFC in 2007. Lots of talent and poor performancE. They get in an outside leadership/culture coach, the boys have a heart to heart and they perform.

North Melbourne did have a culture. They all drank the coolaid and thought they were invincible. And for a while, they were.

Carlton have a terrible culture where players don't want to perform. They've had a phenomenal amount of top shelf players coming in and going out.

Organisations outside of the AFL rely on culture too. I've seen teams with less talent perform better than teams with lots of talent, because they bond as a cohesive team.

 

[Vdubs]

How on earth can you try and make out that Geelong have an old list ? we have a side that can contend for a premiership for the next 5 years .Beyond that will depend on our recruiting.

I am not interested in 18 year olds , I want 24 year olds .

Lets look at the age of our midfield at the start of season 2016, remember its the midfield that has to do most of the hard running and sets up the game.

Selwood-27
Dangerfield -26
Blicavs -25
S.Selwood -26
Duncan -24
Caddy-23
Guthrie -23

This is a premiership midfield that going to be significantly better next year , Dangerfield and S.Selwood are brand new additions, Duncan will be back from injury, while Caddy,Guthrie and Blicavs are all about to reach their prime .

Hawkins will be 27 at the start if this season , no reason why he cant play well into his 30''s like a number of other good key position forwards have such as Riewoldt and Pavlich. We will get another 5 good years plus out of him. If Vardy and Clark break down than we will just go and recruit a good mature age forward from another club .

As for the defense -Taylor 29,Henderson 26,Bews 22,Thurlow 21 and Kolo 20. That's a lot to work with .

I have to pick up on your comment about doing an ACL. After an ACL operation the knee actually comes back stronger ,its only when a player has a structural deficiency that it becomes an ongoing problem. Smith given the fact that he had an injuiry free year last season should be fine .

The take home point is that if you look at the age of the Hawthorn side over the past 3 years , you realize that we are actually very well positioned
especially with our midfield which is the key to any sides success. If we have a deficiency in a particular part of the ground we will fix is with a mature age recruit.

You make good points; but your highlighted knee ACL point is simply incorrect. NO reconstructed knee is EVER stronger than the original, and research shows that every knee that has undergone reconstruction WILL end up with osteoarthritis to some extent. This will not affect the player in the short term, of course, but at best we can hope for around 85% original strength. Smith can still be fine, as you say, but not better in the knee than pre-injury. My mate at GC is convinced that Smith will have a lot to offer, and has not missed a session over 2015.

I can see Bobby's POV as well, as it was so evident this year, BUT we do seem to have tweaked our list superbly, and IF Clark, Stanley, Vardy, Menzel have any reasonable amount of luck with injury, we do have a potent forward set up.
I hate IF's , and we specialise in them.
I see immense upside in Kolo,Thurlow, Bews, in defence, and we know both Taylor and Hendo are KP swing players that give us huge versatility. It almost seems that our main problem is fitting all this talent in, after we get them to meld together.

Ditto our MF- where this was a weakness in 2015, it seriously is now a strength, just like that. We have a tagger, SS; we have a gun in and under, JS; we have Danger, which is huge, and IF Duncan is fully recovered, we saw what he gave us this year. Add Caddy, Guthrie- if he is not in defence, Motlop, Murdoch, Cockatoo, there has to be reason for optimism, and I am usually not blessed with lavish amounts of this preseason.

But it is always easy to be myopic, and see only our potential improvements, ignoring the teams like Pies, who have recruited superbly, etc.

Still, I would be disappointed if we are not playing and winning at least 2 finals; good enough to topple Hawthorn next year, that I doubt, I have them as favourites again, and the 4-peat is, imho, inevitable.

 

[Partridge]

You make good points; but your highlighted knee ACL point is simply incorrect. NO reconstructed knee is EVER stronger than the original, and research shows that every knee that has undergone reconstruction WILL end up with osteoarthritis. This will not affect the player in the short term, of course, but at best we can hope for around 85% original strength. Smith can still be fine, as you say, but not better in the knee than pre-injury. My mate at GC is convinced that Smith will have a lot to offer, and has not missed a session over 2015.

As you're easily the most qualified person here about this topic, I'll defer to your expertise. I'd love to think that every player who comes back from an ACL injury will be better than ever, but it may not be the case.

 

[The rabbi]

Guys for all this talk about how great Hawthorn are lets not forget the draft picks and than the players they pinched from other clubs to win their premierships .

They required not 1 but 2 priority draft picks.

And let us not forget that they have won the Premiership, on average, every second year in the last 8 years.

 

[Jon Douglas]

Obviously i hope Geelong dominate and win plenty of flags but nothing is guarnteed - there is no such thing as a great club - theres 18 franchises - and whoever recruits the best will have the most success

In 6 or 7 years time Geelong and Hawthorn could be 2nd last and last - it all comes down to recruiting - where as culture and oh their a well run club - thats all bull shiit

I agree the most essential component of a successful club is the players but that is usually not enough by itself to get the job done.

Geelong was a very good side in the late '80's and early 90's, when we lost 4 GFs !

I was working at the club at the time and I can tell you - that the reason we nearly got a Premiership and won so many H&A games was largely due to some really high end players at the club (Ablett, Buddha, Couch, Stoneham, Bairstow) and the coaching under Blight. We did not have the players down back to have a really defence and so we tried to blast opposition teams of the park. Just check out the goal tally for the '89 GF !

And it could well be argued that our bottom 5 players in those finals were not the equal of the bottom 5 players in the opposition teams that beat us in those agonising GF losses.

So I think a coach can, and usually does, make a difference to how a club performs. So it just not the amount of individual great players you have that win flags. A champion team will beat a team of champions and I think that reflects what happened in the period I am referring to.

But not to acknowledge that the culture of the club is important in building a side and then getting to work and the play the coach's game plan - is I think under estimating this factor in a team's overall success. It basically helps to ensure that all the players are equally committed to the goal and are willing to share the load to build a champion team. If this type of culture is in place the few that are not as committed to follow team rules and not working as hard as your team mates - become very noticeable. Generally they either end up conforming to the club culture or they get traded or delisted.

A strong culture is important so when young guys who have never been at a AFL club get hit between the eyes very early on in their career. They learn very quickly what is expected of them and the culture at the club supports them thru this significant adjustment at the age of 18 or 19.

But I would also add that assistant coaches (in the modern game) are an important factor in getting team success. And so are the fitness staff - and so is ensuring the club can pay its players and bills - and not go broke doing it. So someone has to go out and get corporate sponsorship. Someone has to answer the phones, take the money and send out the membership tickets for the season. And of course the club also needs to build a physical base for the team and fans to have a focus and a place to enjoy the fruits of the players and staff's labours.

If you were to add how many people it would take to do what is needed to make a AFL team work well - it would run into many hundreds of people. Yes it can be argued some play a more important role than others but still a million small things need to be done to make everything run smoothly.

When I have listened to Premiership coaches speak on what it takes to win a Flag - they say a lot of things have to fall into place if you are to get that chance. And really they should have a fair idea of what it takes to win a Flag these days.

If having the greatest number of good players in one side is all it basically took to win a Flag (these days) then why did GC get rid of Bennell ? Most people who watch the game can see he is a seriously talented player and most clubs would have him in a heart beat. But his refusal to follow team rules (read team culture) was unacceptable - and allowing him to continue at the club could have eaten away at the foundations that can build a winning and successful culture and team. I don't think GC got fair value for Bennell if it was just rated on ability.

I expect most clubs were just not interested in this highly talented player - and so GC had to settle for far less than they would have liked. But the key was get rid of this guy - and even if we do not get much for him - take the deal. This club will not become great and successful if we allow individuals to dictate terms to the club, when those terms do not marry with where the club is heading.

 

[Vdubs]

As you're easily the most qualified person here about this topic, I'll defer to your expertise. I'd love to think that every player who comes back from an ACL injury will be better than ever, but it may not be the case.

Plenty have come back brilliantly, none more so than one of my all time favourites Wojo, and new ligaments can be thicker than the original, but the process of incorporation and getting blood flow etc requires time and some good fortune. Any player who says it is as good as, or better than the original, I am very happy for them.

 

[Bobby_]

You make good points; but your highlighted knee ACL point is simply incorrect. NO reconstructed knee is EVER stronger than the original, and research shows that every knee that has undergone reconstruction WILL end up with osteoarthritis. This will not affect the player in the short term, of course, but at best we can hope for around 85% original strength. Smith can still be fine, as you say, but not better in the knee than pre-injury. My mate at GC is convinced that Smith will have a lot to offer, and has not missed a session over 2015.

I read a study taken up on NFL athletes who did their ACL. 20% never made the grade again and the other 80% had all lost 30% of their original output prior to doing the knee.
That is a massive decline.
ACL's on big men would probably have to be the worst kind of injury they can sustain especially in our sporting code where the demands of jumping, kicking, running and pivoting are so extreme.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

For me the addition of Llyod is really going to show this year.
Great get for the club

Dont want to sound a cynical baarstaaard - but Lloyd was a an applicant and was interviewed for the Carlton senior coaching job - his ambition is to coach an AFL club

If the much hyped up Geelong of 2016 ( on the back of getting one proven top class player ) hits a few sandbars - and the boat gets a bit rocky - he might white ant Scotty - mind you a few posters here might be quite pleased with that

 

[Jon Douglas]

Dont want to sound a cynical baarstaaard - but Lloyd was a an applicant and was interviewed for the Carlton senior coaching job - his ambition is to coach an AFL club

If the much hyped up Geelong of 2016 ( on the back of getting one proven top class player ) hits a few sandbars - and the boat gets a bit rocky - he might white ant Scotty - mind you a few posters here might be quite pleased with that

It is a fair comment to say that many of us on this Board are getting pretty excited about next with the inclusion of maybe 4 FAs. You say that only one is a proven gun (Danger) and I think that is a fair and accurate statement.

But the hype that comes from me, and I suspect others on this Board about our optimism for a good 2016 result, is not entirely bound up in the recruitment of these 4 FAs.

Now of course it has a large part to do with it. Danger, as you acknowledge is an A grade player. I think it is fair to say that he is an A+ grade player. Now no one player could come in and turn around our fortunes so much from this year - to see us perform markedly better (some like to dream of a Premiership next season) in 2016.

The key about Danger as a recruit is that he is simply not an A grader but he is an A+ grader in the midfield. The part of the ground that we are simply deficient in. So he adds class being an A+ player but he really adds to our side because he will reduce the disparity between our midfield and the better midfields out there. Had he been a gun say HB or HF Flanker he would not have the impact on this team as he would as a midfielder.

Then we got Smith as a potential number 1 ruckman. Now I really do not know the player well. From what I read he was high on the GC list to get when the club was formed - so someone thought he might be ok early on. Then he was being groomed for the number 1 ruckman at GC. He was doing ok and making steady progress, played 60 odd senior games (in total) and did his knee. By the time he came back he had been superseded by another ruckman on the GC list.

So he has yet to prove himself a good AFL ruckman. I accept that point BUT he is now fit and uninjured (unlike many of our ruckman over the past 5 years) - so for me that is a tick. He 24/5, is 206 cm tall and is 105 kgs - so he has the necessary physical attributes to be a first ruckman - and that has not always been the case over the last 3-4 years when we have had to play undersized first ruckman (to our detriment usually). So that is tick 2 for me.

And with only 65 senior games and being 25 I think he may still have quite a bit of development in him over the next few years at the Catland. That is possible and we shall need to see what unfolds.

But the key here is - he does not need to be in the top 6 ruckman in the league to be of significant value to us. No one's fault but for a lot of reasons we just have not been able to put a decent first ruckman on the park consistently for the last 3 years (or more). And I think most here would agree that is an area of our game that we have lost on a regular basis and this has hurt us in games. If GFC wanted to become competitive again with the better clubs we just could not keep being so insipid in our ruck division.

So all Smith has to do is be provide a really physical and hard competition at the centre and around the ground ball ups that ensures we can more often neutralise the oppositions best ruckman - then we are ahead ! And if he can win a few hit outs and maybe 1-2 hit outs to advantage then we are really ahead of where we have been for far too long.

I hope people do not put too much on Smith to be a gun ruckman because we do not really know if he can make that grade. But he could be an effective ruckman by stopping opposition ruckman giving their midfield too many better opportunities at ball up situations. If he develops beyond this level (and I read a few think he is better than your everyday, garden variety ruckman) - fantastic, and our team becomes stronger again.

So by adding the known Danger with the somewhat unknown Smith it is quite possible, even likely, our midfield performances and clearances will be up on this year - and likely to be by a fair amount. That of course is not enough to make us a Top 4 contender - but it is a good start.

To be continued (next - Scooter and Henderson - and the returning LTIs to the side and youngsters that will improve in 2016).