Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[Jazny]

Sanctions are the first step. Why do you keep coming up with hypotheticals? It sounds like you dont even want to try and change their behaviour.

Why are you evading the question?

 

[Gralin]

Yes, so she seems to believe if Palestinians in Gaza keep electing Hamas, then they shouldn't be dismantled, despite her acknowledging they are terrorists. Weird position, but okay. Good questions from the interviewer to get that out of her at least.

Keep electing Hamas?

How frequently are they doing this?

 

[Gralin]

How do we determine what the Palestinians want?

well I would think asking them instead of an Australian politician would be a good starting point

 

[Gralin]

Australian senator refuses to condemn terrorist organisation because it aligns with her religious beliefs.

What a clown. A serious threat to national security.

'Not up to me': Greens deputy won't say whether Hamas should be dismantled

Greens deputy Mehreen Faruqi says it should be left to Palestinians to decide whether to dismantle Hamas, as she also makes claims that ex-Labor senator Fatima Payman is being "vilified" by her former party.

www.abc.net.au

Good to see all the racist dogwhistling the Australian media have been doing this week has done its job

 

[Jazny]

"Hamas" and "Palestinians".

That's the point. Which is why GP is going to stop short of calling for the Israeli government to be dismantled despite claiming Israel is a terrorist organisation that continues to attack other nations. He will just probably keep evading or not engaging with the principle behind the question now.

Keep electing Hamas?

How frequently are they doing this?

What part of what I said implied they have done it more than once? It was a hypothetical about the future.

 

[smish]

Good to see all the racist dogwhistling the Australian media have been doing this week has done its job

Questioning a senator whether they believe a terrorist group should be disbanded is racist.

Got it.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

well I would think asking them instead of an Australian politician would be a good starting point

Them?
Who are you going to ask?
Random Palestinian on the streets of Melbourne?
Random Palestinian on the streets of Gaza?
Hamas?
PLO?
Palestinian Authority?

 

[Gralin]

Questioning a senator whether they believe a terrorist group should be disbanded is racist.

Got it.

that isnt what you did

its also not what the media did

try to keep up

 

[Gralin]

What part of what I said implied they have done it more than once? It was a hypothetical about the future.

yes why would you engage with what is happening now when you can just make up hypotheticals about the future instead


why would you acknowledge the current lack of democracy and self determination of Palestinians when you can attack them with future hypotheticals instead

 

[Jazny]

that isnt what you did

its also not what the media did

try to keep up

What did you mean by it then? What dogwhistling are you referring to?

 

[Gralin]

Them?
Who are you going to ask?
Random Palestinian on the streets of Melbourne?
Random Palestinian on the streets of Gaza?
Hamas?
PLO?
Palestinian Authority?

you like to style yourself as relatively intelligent I'm sure you can work it out

though I can see you'd rather not so carry on

 

[Gralin]

What did you mean by it then? What dogwhistling are you referring to?

are you unaware of what dogwhistling is Jaz or are you just blind to it when its Muslim women copping it in the media?

you know like has been happening

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That's the point. Which is why GP is going to stop short of calling for the Israeli government to be dismantled despite claiming Israel is a terrorist organisation that continues to attack other nations. He will just probably keep evading or not engaging with the principle behind the question now.

What part of what I said implied they have done it more than once? It was a hypothetical about the future.

Your hypothetical was junketry. I told you they should be sanctioned like apartheid era South Africa.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

you like to style yourself as relatively intelligent I'm sure you can work it out

though I can see you'd rather not so carry on

I can't work it out sorry.
I suspect that the fragmented representation of Palestine is one of the reasons that Australia has not recognised their statehood.

As it stands , Hamas seem to represent Gaza. I think the Palestinian Authority is in charge of West Bank, and they are all represented by a body related to the PLO at the united nations.
None of these groups can claim to be elected by the people.

 

[Jazny]

Your hypothetical was junketry. I told you they should be sanctioned like apartheid era South Africa.

What steps might be next if the sanctions don't work? Would it ever be justified to dismantle the Israeli government if they are a terrorist organisation that is continually attacking other nations? Or should the victims of their terror just continue to be victimised until the Israeli people decide to vote them out democratically?

are you unaware of what dogwhistling is Jaz or are you just blind to it when its Muslim women copping it in the media?

you know like has been happening

I am asking you specifically what you saw that made you claim that the media was dogwhistling. I am not denying you saw something, I haven't been paying much attention to it. I just want to know what you saw that made you say it.

 

[faible]

So she seems to be saying given that scenario, Hamas shouldn't be dismantled.

No, she literally said that the interviewer is making up a hypothetical that is a long way off occurring, instead of talking about what's actually happening right now and the response (or lackthereof) from our Government, and other major Western Governments, so those events.

So if Palestine finally becomes an independent state. If Palestinians get free and fair elections. If those Palestinians then re-elect Hamas (in the current form). Then how about we worry about whether an external party should be going in the dismantle them.

Meanwhile, how about we talk about the far-right nationalist Government causing carnage and suffering for those ~ 40,000 dead Palestinians, and the ~ 2 million displaced ones? You know, that thing happening right now that people seem to keep wanting to distract from and engage in hypotheticals.

Same as the whole 'what would Hamas do to Israel if they had the chance' argument is a stupid one. We don't fully know, it's not likely we'll ever know. Meanwhile, we know what the Israeli Government will do to the Palestinian people.

 

[faible]

What steps might be next if the sanctions don't work? Would it ever be justified to dismantle the Israeli government if they are a terrorist organisation that is continually attacking other nations? Or should the victims of their terror just continue to be victimised until the Israeli people decide to vote them out democratically?

Perhaps we could try actually (properly) starting with the sanctions and see how it goes.

 

[faible]

None of these groups can claim to be elected by the people.

Seems pretty self explanatory what we need to do then.

 

[Jazny]

No, she literally said that the interviewer is making up a hypothetical that is a long way off occurring, instead of talking about what's actually happening right now and the response (or lackthereof) from our Government, and other major Western Governments, so those events.

So if Palestine finally becomes an independent state. If Palestinians get free and fair elections. If those Palestinians then re-elect Hamas (in the current form). Then how about we worry about whether an external party should be going in the dismantle them.

She does engage with the question though at one point saying "Hamas is an organisation that exists in the region. Who will dismantle it? It's up to the people in Palestine and that region to make sure that people can live in peace...". My reading of this, and nobody is a mindreader so I can't say for sure, but it's hard to not read that as saying "only the people of Palestine can dismantle Hamas" but she even stops short of giving an opinion of whether the people should dismantle Hamas "It's not up to me who should be gone or not...".

Not a great moment for her.

 

[Gralin]

What steps might be next if the sanctions don't work? Would it ever be justified to dismantle the Israeli government if they are a terrorist organisation that is continually attacking other nations? Or should the victims of their terror just continue to be victimised until the Israeli people decide to vote them out democratically?

I am asking you specifically what you saw that made you claim that the media was dogwhistling. I am not denying you saw something, I haven't been paying much attention to it. I just want to know what you saw that made you say it.

Yes of course you don't pay attention you just ask questions right?

 

[Gralin]

She does engage with the question though at one point saying "Hamas is an organisation that exists in the region. Who will dismantle it? It's up to the people in Palestine and that region to make sure that people can live in peace...". My reading of this, and nobody is a mindreader so I can't say for sure, but it's hard to not read that as saying "only the people of Palestine can dismantle Hamas" but she even stops short of giving an opinion of whether the people should dismantle Hamas "It's not up to me who should be gone or not...".

Not a great moment for her.

Palestinians should have a right to self determination isn't a good moment for her?

I thought you weren't paying much attention to the media Jaz

which is it?

 

[faible]

She does engage with the question though at one point saying "Hamas is an organisation that exists in the region. Who will dismantle it? It's up to the people in Palestine and that region to make sure that people can live in peace...". My reading of this, and nobody is a mindreader so I can't say for sure, but it's hard to not read that as saying "only the people of Palestine can dismantle Hamas" but she even stops short of giving an opinion of whether the people should dismantle Hamas "It's not up to me who should be gone or not...".

Not a great moment for her.

So someone who believes in the right for Palestinians to have self-determination, believes Palestinians should have the right to self-determination? I'm not sure what you're finding confusing. Her saying 'it's up to the Palestinian people' is exactly how self-determination looks.

She believes Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
She believes Palestinians should have a state and self-determination.
She believes Western countries shouldn't intervene; which fits with self-determination of the Palestinian people in their own state.
She believes the Palestinian people (and other people in the region) have a responsibility to ensure peace in the region when exercising that self-determination in their own state.

It's all pretty congruous, the only reason you're finding it confusing I assume, is because you want every single conversation around this issue to result in '<someone external> needs to remove Hamas' because that then supports the <someone external> becoming 'Israel needs to remove Hamas' which AFAIK is your fundamental view on this situation? Happy for you to correct that view if it's not an accurate representation.

 

[smish]

that isnt what you did

its also not what the media did

try to keep up

A bit hard to keep up when you're spewing nonsense.

Could you elaborate a bit further?

 

[Jazny]

Yes of course you don't pay attention you just ask questions right?

Why are you evading the question? You were the one that made the claim, I am acknowledging I havent read or watched every single piece of Australian media on the subject to know if what you are saying is true or not. I just want to know what you saw that made you say that.

Palestinians should have a right to self determination isn't a good moment for her?

Is that what I said? The poor moment is for her to refuse to engage with a question about whether an organisation she acknowledges is a terrorist group should be dismantled. Her answer can acknowledge the Palestinians right to self determination and still say Hamas should be dismantled.

Here is an example of one possible way you can do that: Yes, Hamas should be dismantled as they are a terrorist organisation. The Palestinian people should be the ones who are responsible for dismantling Hamas, not Israel or their western allies.

 

[Gralin]

Why are you evading the question? You were the one that made the claim, I am acknowledging I havent read or watched every single piece of Australian media on the subject to know if what you are saying is true or not. I just want to know what you saw that made you say that.

If you've been watching the coverage or Payman over the last two weeks or the coverage of Israel and Palestine over the last 9 months and you can't see dogwhistiling in the media against Muslims then me pointing it out to you isn't going to do much

especially when the article from the ABC is being discussed and you seem to think its a bad look for Faruqi and not the ABC

Is that what I said? The poor moment is for her to refuse to engage with a question about whether an organisation she acknowledges is a terrorist group should be dismantled. Her answer can acknowledge the Palestinians right to self determination and still say Hamas should be dismantled.

Please explain to me how you can have a position of Palestinian self determination that involves you deciding what to do in Palestine

Here is an example of one possible way you can do that: Yes, Hamas should be dismantled as they are a terrorist organisation. The people of Palestine should be the ones who are responsible for dismantling Hamas, not Israel or their western allies.

No this is you saying you have decided what the Palestinian people should do, this is not self determination

again this is all about what you want