Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

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Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...
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sdfc said:
There are shitloads of Muslims participating in broader society. Being Muslim is no barrier. Sitting in little enclaves echoing your own bullshit is.
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No denying that, but i said the number is not 0.1% like Mal suggested. The Hindu ethnic cleansing and genocide in Bangladesh been ongoing since 1971, i am half Asian, my mums a refugee from Bangladesh. It's still ongoing today...
 
evolved2 said:
I feel it would be a lot less controversial discussion if we were having a lot of Scientology migrants.
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I get what you're saying, but I think you've been sucked into the same divisions that many "progressives" have been sucked into. Where it's a fight about what you have to think - with only one opinion being allowable. So progressives have to think one thing and only tolerate one thing and other thoughts should be cancelled. All of that is conservatism, regardless if the thought is pro or anti Muslim.

Liberalism is about the freedom of thought without being cancelled, ostracized or jailed for dissenting opinions.

So as a liberal, I disagree with your thoughts, just as I disagree with a lot of islam and I will argue against it or you, but I have no desire to cancel it or you.

Thus I can be accepting of LGBTI and Islam and your opposition to one or the other without being contradictory. But I'll still disagree argue and want change.

I don't like it when either conservatives or progresses try to evoke liberalism to cancel something - that's when it becomes contradictory and ridiculous.
 
sr36 said:
I get what you're saying, but I think you've been sucked into the same divisions that many "progressives" have been sucked into. Where it's a fight about what you have to think - with only one opinion being allowable. So progressives have to think one thing and only tolerate one thing and other thoughts should be cancelled. All of that is conservatism, regardless if the thought is pro or anti Muslim.

Liberalism is about the freedom of thought without being cancelled, ostracized or jailed for dissenting opinions.

So as a liberal, I disagree with your thoughts, just as I disagree with a lot of islam and I will argue against it or you, but I have no desire to cancel it or you.

Thus I can be accepting of LGBTI and Islam and your opposition to one or the other without being contradictory. But I'll still disagree argue and want change.

I don't like it when either conservatives or progresses try to evoke liberalism to cancel something - that's when it becomes contradictory and ridiculous.
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I'm curious why you feel I'm wanting to cancel anything.

Islam should not be illegal. I welcome robust open discussion with Muslims.
 

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evolved2 said:
Islam is inherently anti-LGBT and anti-women.

Some believers rise above their antiquated books and find a different perspective, but they're not the norm.

You cannot support Islam in its entirety and be pro-women or pro-LGBT. It's impossible.
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You can support people's rights to be Islamic whilst also supporting people's rights to be LGBT. It's not a contradiction at all. Liberalism is about the freedom of thought - even if you disagree with it. So you might be in favour of barring people from Australia due to actions they've done, but not their thoughts or beliefs.

Freedom of thought and belief and thus religion is at the heart of the secular liberalism that you uphold as a virtue yet contradict by looking to base citizenship upon belief.
 
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sr36 said:
You can support people's rights to be Islamic whilst also supporting people's rights to be LGBT. It's not a contradiction at all. Liberalism is about the freedom of thought - even if you disagree with it. So you might be in favour of barring people from Australia due to actions they've done, but not their thoughts or beliefs.

Freedom of thought and belief and thus religion is at the heart of the secular liberalism that you uphold as a virtue yet contradict by looking to base citizenship upon belief.
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I see your point and the contradiction you're pointing out.

In general I agree with you. I believe Islam to be the exception to the rule though. If I argued I don't want Nazis allowed into the country, you'd probably agree with me.

Islam is ideologically and strongly opposed to many things that are good about this nation, including freedom of religion. It's the exception to the rule. It's in the interest of this nation to limit the number of Muslims allowed in. Other "brown people" religions - Hinduism and Buddhism for example are far more compatible with our secular democracy. Islam is an enemy of secular democracy.
 
evolved2 said:
I see your point and the contradiction you're pointing out.

In general I agree with you. I believe Islam to be the exception to the rule though. If I argued I don't want Nazis allowed into the country, you'd probably agree with me.

Islam is ideologically and strongly opposed to many things that are good about this nation, including freedom of religion. It's the exception to the rule. It's in the interest of this nation to limit the number of Muslims allowed in. Other "brown people" religions - Hinduism and Buddhism for example are far more compatible with our secular democracy. Islam is an enemy of secular democracy.
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I agree with you that some Islamic groups are enemies of secularism, but many Muslims believe them to also be enemies of Islam.

I've got no qualms with people being barred due to being identified as belonging to terrorist or hate speech groups, but if you define Islam as a whole that way due to some of its sects, you'd have to also do so with Christianity, surely?
 
When you delve deeper you can see its (Sunni) Arab imperialism that is the cause of most Islam related issues not Muslims as a whole. Victims of Arab imperialism (Iranians, Malaysians, Indonesians, Pakistanis, etc.) are far more tolerant Muslims than Sunni Arab Muslims. All religion is just a means of power and control, I would prefer we could discriminate against religion as its not something that has done any good for the world IMO.
 
evolved2 said:
I see your point and the contradiction you're pointing out.

In general I agree with you. I believe Islam to be the exception to the rule though. If I argued I don't want Nazis allowed into the country, you'd probably agree with me.

Islam is ideologically and strongly opposed to many things that are good about this nation, including freedom of religion. It's the exception to the rule. It's in the interest of this nation to limit the number of Muslims allowed in. Other "brown people" religions - Hinduism and Buddhism for example are far more compatible with our secular democracy. Islam is an enemy of secular democracy.
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"exception to the rule" is just another way of saying you want to pick and choose when rules apply and when they don't.

So what you are really saying is that people have to conform to your world view or they shouldn't be allowed in.
 
sr36 said:
I agree with you that some Islamic groups are enemies of secularism, but many Muslims believe them to also be enemies of Islam.

I've got no qualms with people being barred due to being identified as belonging to terrorist or hate speech groups, but if you define Islam as a whole that way due to some of its sects, you'd have to also do so with Christianity, surely?
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Christianity and Islam are the both the same in that they're cultural parasites, but most forms of Christianinty tend to be more respecting of other beliefs, lifestlyles, and democracy. The pope has said atheists and gays can get to heaven, for example.

The horse has already bolted with Christianity in this country so I see no benefit from blocking more from entry, except for the absolute worst kind - extremists beyond run of the mill bible literalists.

I wish the LNP would stop kowtowing to Christianity. Religion has no place in politics, and I include atheism too (even though its not a religion).

I think third world countries should bar Christian missionaries from entry, but that's a separate discussion.
 
Number37 said:
"exception to the rule" is just another way of saying you want to pick and choose when rules apply and when they don't.

So what you are really saying is that people have to conform to your world view or they shouldn't be allowed in.
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Nobody has to conform to my worldview to gain entry. A nation full of atheists sounds kinda dull.
 

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evolved2 said:
Christianity and Islam are the both the same in that they're cultural parasites, but most forms of Christianinty tend to be more respecting of other beliefs, lifestlyles, and democracy. The pope has said atheists and gays can get to heaven, for example.

The horse has already bolted with Christianity in this country so I see no benefit from blocking more from entry, except for the absolute worst kind - extremists beyond run of the mill bible literalists.

I wish the LNP would stop kowtowing to Christianity. Religion has no place in politics, and I include atheism too (even though its not a religion).

I think third world countries should bar Christian missionaries from entry, but that's a separate discussion.
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Religion is belief in a universal set of values that should be followed by all (usually determined by a magical super being). As a result you cant seperate out religion from politics because those who believe in religion believe everyone should follow their religions moral code. Not just believers.

Athiesm cant coexist with religion as a result. It can try but there will always be conflict and disagreement about laws. The long run goal of athiests should be to convince people that religion is false through argument and empirical evidence. This approach is slowly working in western regions in regards to convincing the population to stop believing in the christian religion. Its taken 4-5 centuries to get where we are. Feels like only another century to go.

However, we should saying athiesm is the alternative to religion. Athiesm is just a rejection of religion. Not an alternative. The best alternative is humanism.
 
Seeds said:
Religion is belief in a universal set of values that should be followed by all (usually determined by a magical super being). As a result you cant seperate out religion from politics because those who believe in religion believe everyone should follow their religions moral code. Not just believers.

Athiesm cant coexist with religion as a result. It can try but there will always be conflict and disagreement about laws. The long run goal of athiests should be to convince people that religion is false through argument and empirical evidence. This approach is slowly working in western regions in regards to convincing the population to stop believing in the christian religion. Its taken 4-5 centuries to get where we are. Feels like only another century to go.

However, we should saying athiesm is the alternative to religion. Athiesm is just a rejection of religion. Not an alternative. The best alternative is humanism.
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Some of the laws are more sensible than others. I can certainly agree with stuff like "don't kill people and steal stuff ".
Things like "don't eat meat on good friday " are silly , but if i was forced to, i wouldn't lose sleep over it.
 
Seeds said:
Religion is belief in a universal set of values that should be followed by all (usually determined by a magical super being). As a result you cant seperate out religion from politics because those who believe in religion believe everyone should follow their religions moral code. Not just believers.

Athiesm cant coexist with religion as a result. It can try but there will always be conflict and disagreement about laws. The long run goal of athiests should be to convince people that religion is false through argument and empirical evidence. This approach is slowly working in western regions in regards to convincing the population to stop believing in the christian religion. Its taken 4-5 centuries to get where we are. Feels like only another century to go.

However, we should saying athiesm is the alternative to religion. Athiesm is just a rejection of religion. Not an alternative. The best alternative is humanism.
Click to expand...

If the goal of atheism is to convince people then it is just another religion.
 
Seeds said:
Religion is belief in a universal set of values that should be followed by all (usually determined by a magical super being). As a result you cant seperate out religion from politics because those who believe in religion believe everyone should follow their religions moral code. Not just believers.

Athiesm cant coexist with religion as a result. It can try but there will always be conflict and disagreement about laws. The long run goal of athiests should be to convince people that religion is false through argument and empirical evidence. This approach is slowly working in western regions in regards to convincing the population to stop believing in the christian religion. Its taken 4-5 centuries to get where we are. Feels like only another century to go.

However, we should saying athiesm is the alternative to religion. Athiesm is just a rejection of religion. Not an alternative. The best alternative is humanism.
Click to expand...
It's been said that herding atheists is like herding cats. Atheism isn't a unifying belief.

I think of myself more as an antitheist than atheist anyway. Atheism is boring, simple, and doesn't motivate one in any direction.

I'm not sure what the antidote to religion is. Otherwise intelligent people believing dumb stuff like theism is much like conspiracy theorists believing 5G causes COVID. They didn't come to believe in sky pixies through logic and they're probably not going to be convinced out of it by logic.

Reality is difficult. People want to believe lies.
 

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Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

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