Winning Culture - Richmond

[morgoth]

How important is it that a coach comes from a winning culture?

I beleive it is paramount to the success of a club because:

1. The coach commands respect ie he has done it as a player and/or coach.

2. He knows what it takes to win a flag and can create the list/atmosphere/culture requried.

Classic example at the moment is Richmond. MagpieGreg posted a thread which highlighted:

Frawley - played at a club notorious for under-acheiving and also partying hard. Assistant coach at the woods when we were a joke.
Brittan - first wooden spoon coach in Carlton's history
Hutchinson - wooden spoon coach with Melb
Loewe - ditto re playing history with Frawley

Frawley has not been able to reign in the discipline problems with alcohol and has also followed the Saints/Pies path during his time of recruting bit players from other clubs rather than building a list of young guys who can be molded to the culture he wants.

I think Spud will keep his job and will fill the role of whipping boy for the next 12 months and will then be replaced. They will get good draft picks this year and I suspect next year also. Miller is the key man from this point.

 

[tess]

Hey what does Loewe do at Richmond, I saw him on a building site laying bricks in Port Melb only last week.

 

[GOALden Hawk]

Originally posted by tess
Hey what does Loewe do at Richmond, I saw him on a building site laying bricks in Port Melb only last week.

Pretty sure he is the ruck coach - seems a bit strange to me when he spent the majority of his career at centre-half forward. Jobs for the boys.

But you guys are forgetting - Greg Miller has told the Tiger supporters to be patient, they are getting the "structure" right.

And with leaders like Richo it's only a matter of time before the wins start flowing like abusive talkback callers after a Richmond loss.

 

[Port01]

Didn't Malthouse play with Footscray?

 

[MarkT]

Did Tom Hafey come from a winning culture? He was an ordinary player who took Richmond out of the doldrums. John Kennedy, Alan Jeans?

Most coaches do come from a winning culture because they are the ones that get a gig early on because of their credentials. Guys like Watson, Shaw, Thompson, Judge, Knights, Daniher and many others were failures as coaches despite their winning culture as players and playing in premierships. IMO it is acedemic. It is what the guy knows about the game and motivation that is all that counts. If he doesn't have a good lists that is all acedemic too.

 

[NICK THE PIE MAN]

Originally posted by Port01
Didn't Malthouse play with Footscray?

Played in a Richmond premiership.

 

[Foxtrot]

Originally posted by Port01
Didn't Malthouse play with Footscray?

He coached the doggies don't think he played with them.

He was in the Richmond premiership side of 1980 though.

 

[jim440]

Originally posted by Port01
Didn't Malthouse play with Footscray?

Malthouse coached Footscray, never played with us.

He played with Richmond in 1980 but I can't remember whether he played in their premiership side or not. Probably did, but there is a nagging doubt in my mind over a suspension.

 

[Pornstar]

The simple fact is Frawley has no idea what it takes to be a premiership team because he has never been involved in one.

 

[GOALden Hawk]

Originally posted by Pornstar
The simple fact is Frawley has no idea what it takes to be a premiership team because he has never been involved in one.

The simple fact is Richmond have a dud list. Their recruiting has been a disgrace, who is in charge of that? Fiora and Pettifer with top 10 picks, beyond poor.

Even last year - going for the quick fix with the likes of Fleming and Nicholls - what did that achieve?

Houlihan, Hudson, Biddiscombe, King....could go on and on.

 

[The Phat Side]

Originally posted by GOALden Hawk
The simple fact is Richmond have a dud list. Their recruiting has been a disgrace, who is in charge of that?

You dont think list management is huge part of the coaches responsibility. He has been there 4 years. The list is worse now than when he took over. He has done a terrible job. Thats the simple fact

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by Pornstar
The simple fact is Frawley has no idea what it takes to be a premiership team because he has never been involved in one.

Simplistic but true.

Dennis Pagan is the only recent successful coach I can think of who hasnt tasted finals success as a player.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by MarkT
Did Tom Hafey come from a winning culture? He was an ordinary player who took Richmond out of the doldrums. John Kennedy, Alan Jeans?

What happened in the 50's when Jeans etc played has no bearing on today's game. The fact is today that most successful coaches are premiership players (or at least Grand Finallists).

 

[AFLTN]

Greg Beck - the recruiting manager has to go, along with the duds he recruited

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by hotpie
What happened in the 50's when Jeans etc played has no bearing on today's game. The fact is today that most successful coaches are premiership players (or at least Grand Finallists).

So are most failed coaches.

 

[weewilly]

I think a combination of playing for a successfull club and plenty of football smarts and ruthlesness is the ideal but there will always be successfull coaches outside this loop.

 

[GOALden Hawk]

No doubt Frawley must cop a lot of responsibility for the appalling list management, particularly in regards to recruiting recycled players.

But surely it would have been Beck that told him Fiora and Pettifer would fulfill whatever needs Richmond apparently had at the time?

For once, I agree with AFLTN!

Coughlan is going to be a real player, Rodan does his bit, Zantuck is coming on - what about after that? There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the young talent coming through like other clubs.

 

[kretchy]

Originally posted by GOALden Hawk

Coughlan is going to be a real player, Rodan does his bit, Zantuck is coming on - what about after that? There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the young talent coming through like other clubs.

Add Newman to that list and Schulz looks to be a good prospect.

AS mentioned earlier in the thread the drafting of the recycled players Houlihan etc has resulted in less rookies on the list and less young talent coming through compared to other clubs. Our last two first round picks Fiora and Pettifer have been extremely disapointing and you would probably suggest Beck would have to go, but who knows if he had have been given more picks to work with and not wasted on recycled players he could be under no pressure at all, but due to the lack of strength from our most recent top 10 picks he has to go.

 

[morgoth]

They have recruited to many lightly built outside running players who play unaccountable footy. Surely Spud provides the paparametres of what he needs to make the team successful?

The one injury that has really hurt them is Ottens, guy should be a superstar of the competition by know but is still playing cameo's.

Look a bit Pie like under Unsahw to me do the Tiges.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

our reputation of sacking the coach as a quick fix hurt us back in 2000.spud was 4th pick after sheed,s,thompson and even judge knocked us back.
spud had no chance really.he was forced due to our reputation to go for quick fix recruiting style and the gamble didnt pay off.not entirely his fault tho.
like spud we were all fooled by 2001 and now is the time clear out the deadwood.

cheers!

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by morgoth
Look a bit Pie like under Unsahw to me do the Tiges.

And are paying similarly for 5 years of pathetic recruiting BEFORE the coach arrived. Personally I don't rate Frawley as a coach or a tactician, but the flaws in the playing list are not his fault any more than they were Shaw's at Collingwood. With a list of talls that they had when Frawley arrived they were not on the wrong path recruiting runners. The problem was that the ones they had already are soft and lack enough talent to beat their opponents consistently.

 

[CyberKev]

I tend to agree with just about all Mark T has to say in this thread.

I think it is also worth bearing in mind that of the Premiership coaches of the past 20 years, Sheedy & Pagan were the earliest to achieve premiership success, having coached their respective sides for four years to get it. Clearly you need a bit of time, a strong list, a good injury run throughout the year, and a bit of luck tossed in to be the 1 coach in 16 to get the glory in any given year. Its difficult for many lesser light coaches to get more than 3 years at the helm unless the team has a couple of sound finals results to fall back on.

In recent years there has also been a tendency for strong sides (or potentially strong sides) to only give the nod to coaches who have won premierships or (at the very least) taken sides to Preliminary Finals previously. Accordingly, the current AFL coaching A-list consists of: Sheedy, Matthew, Pagan & Malthouse.
Its a small list, but fresh blood eventually has to break-in, and perhaps the likes of Worsfold & Roos are on the cusp of doing so. They need a few years of sustained success, including at least one premiership to do so though.

It is interesting that Fitzroy should have named Len Smith as their coach of the century. He never took a team to a GF, but he always drew rave reviews both inside and outside the club. Would he be faring better at Geelong with its lack of experienced and capable kpp; at Richmond with its dismal and injury depleted list; at West Coast a couple of years back with a wealth of new blood and an injury list beyond comparison in the history of AFL football? Who knows?!

Its hard to quantify, but a coach needs to be assessed against a lot of intangibles to verify his true bona fides for the job and, in reality, premiership success should largely be viewed as icing on the cake, moreso than the whole cake itself.

Kevin

 

[AFLTN]

Originally posted by GOALden Hawk
No doubt Frawley must cop a lot of responsibility for the appalling list management, particularly in regards to recruiting recycled players.

But surely it would have been Beck that told him Fiora and Pettifer would fulfill whatever needs Richmond apparently had at the time?

For once, I agree with AFLTN!

Coughlan is going to be a real player, Rodan does his bit, Zantuck is coming on - what about after that? There doesn't seem to be anywhere near the young talent coming through like other clubs.

Thanks Hawk - supposedly when Mille came to the Club, the first person he tried to recruit wa Noel Judkins, the best recruiter going around. Miller sees the value in a top not recruitment team, so IMO will be on the move soon.

 

[morgoth]

AFLTN

One, some of us do not rate Judkins that highly, Danny Roach ring a bell? Maybe the stellar form of Didak taken at 3 is the hook?

Still if he is highly rated, where the hell would the Tigers get the money to take him out? Miller would be more likely to target Nth or one of the poorer clubs were they can offer more dollars.

 

[Foxtrot]

Like most of the theorizing that goes on whether it be Mike Sheahan or Morgoth - it's generally making sense of things that have already happened. Clarity in hindsight is not a scarce commodity in footy circles.

This is not an attempt to defend Frawley. Lots of Richmond fans are running out of patience with him and most acknowledge we have mis managed our list since the false dawn of 1995. However assigning neat reasons like Frawley's "loser" Saints culture is just speculative hot air theorising that anyone who has logged over 2 hours worth of Talking Footy viewing could put together in 5 minutes.

There weren't many damning critiques of Frawley's coaching when we made the prelim a couple of years ago - Or with Britain/Carlton for that matter. Then comes a slide and suddenly everyone can pinpoint exactly what went wrong and surmise that the guys in charge are idiots.

I think this sort of retrospective wisdom ties in with the Cats percieved good run with the media despite their poor showing this year. Almost everyone in the media agreed that they were on the right path with fostering an impressive crop of local youngsters over the past couple of years and heading in the right direction. Now they are struggling a bit and nobody wants to admit they may have been wrong.

Probably easier to wait and see what happens first then sit back and explain why it happened later.