News Cyril and Shannyn Rioli speak to Caro - link to club statement in page 8

[Hawthorn23]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

Mod edit: it’s a must watch for anyone reading this thread.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

The fact you feel a need to classify your friends by race could be seen as casual racism as well. I have friends. Many are not the same race as I, but I don't choose which ones to spend time with or invite using their race to filter them from events or discussions. You likely don't either, but statements like that certainly can cast that impression.

Apologies if this comes off as harsh on a message board. It's just something that, with a very racially diverse family has bee a sore spot for me.

How to miss the point in one easy lesson.

 

[rjslcM]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

Screenshots of Cyril’s and Sam’s apparent text messages from that clip:

 

[mcnulty]

How many years of goodwill is sufficient? Golliwog-gate was in 2011. This statement was made in 2018.

And intent is not required to make a racist remark. Just as intent isn’t required to be found guilty of a crime. It is a mitigating factor in the sentence only. Jeff has had years of gaffs and idiotic statements made. as premier, as president of beyond blue, and has president of the hawthorn football club it has always been his job to understand these issues. It is his job to know and no amount of goodwill can overcome the fact he deliberately keeps himself ignorant of these issues.

Ok so quick hypothetical. If this were an isolated incident insofar as Kennett goes, would you be calling for his resignation?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The fact you feel a need to classify your friends by race could be seen as casual racism as well. I have friends. Many are not the same race as I, but I don't choose which ones to spend time with or invite using their race to filter them from events or discussions. You likely don't either, but statements like that certainly can cast that impression.

Apologies if this comes off as harsh on a message board. It's just something that, with a very racially diverse family has bee a sore spot for me.

Suggesting that being culturally sensitive towards a group of people could be considered casual racism is really odd.

 

[Brishawk]

Ok so quick hypothetical. If this were an isolated incident insofar as Kennett goes, would you be calling for his resignation?

In this hypothetical should he have known better after spending years in public leadership positions? In this hypothetical did he similarly deny culpability in causing offence and refuse to change his ways? Does he still continue to deflect away criticism and refuse to investigate the issues raised by the rioli’s?

Jeff has to go because he is a barrier to change. We can’t heal as a club while it is led by a man who can’t bring himself to apologise and doesn’t think he has done any wrong.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

The insight into just how upset all of our Idigenous players were with the Goodes situation at the time and how our club just ignored them all is really hard to swallow, even though it’s not at all surprising for me to learn that happened on the night.

Newbold, Fox and Clarkson have a lot of answering to do.

Caro is spot on when she says that it shows just how uneducated our staff were that they could just tell our players to forget about it and to move on and she’s also spot on in declaring that we can’t move passed this until an investigation is had and all of this dirty laundry gets aired.

The one thing that is making me feel better about all of this is just how well Sam is handling this issue.

 

[mcnulty]

Just for reference, I have lived in FNQ for years, have played footy there and have had interactions and relationships with hundreds if not thousands of Indigenous Australians - children, teenagers, adults, elderly - so I’m not talking as if I know what’s better for Indigenous Australians than they themselves and I hope I’m not coming across that way, I’m talking from a perspective that has lived alongside, worked with and played sport with Indigenous Australians for years.

That aside, Sam Mitchell in his book, Relentless, said (to words of this effect): “There’s an old saying that you should treat people how you want to be treated. It’s wrong. You should treat people how they want to be treated.”

Treating others slightly differently to one another is probably inevitable if you believe in “you should treat people how they want to be treated.”

A very fine sentiment from Sam, who is impressing me more and more every day, on and off the field, but is important to remember also what Chance Bateman was quoted as saying the other day- this can all be quite challenging, and mistakes are invariably going to be made along the way. Your experience has naturally given you a better understanding. Others may have not has experience with Indigenous people- they may also be less empathetic, less intuitive, have lower EI.

As many have said education is the key. But we need to be careful we don’t browbeat people whose intentions may be fine but get it wrong. That risks pushing them away.

 

[rjslcM]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

As much as I would feel for Sam Mitchell coaching the club while an external agency conducts a review during his initial time as a young coach - a review is usually good at bringing everything up, getting it all out, helping people realise how wrong they got it, before those people then take it as seriously as it needs to be taken into the future - with real changes to policies, procedures and culture.

 

[mcnulty]

In this hypothetical should he have known better after spending years in public leadership positions? In this hypothetical did he similarly deny culpability in causing offence and refuse to change his ways? Does he still continue to deflect away criticism and refuse to investigate the issues raised by the rioli’s?

Jeff has to go because he is a barrier to change. We can’t heal as a club while it is led by a man who can’t bring himself to apologise and doesn’t think he has done any wrong.

The hypothetical was clear. This happens in isolation. Yes or no?

 

[Nathan Detroit]

Suggesting that being culturally sensitive towards a group of people could be considered casual racism is really odd.

I guess in short, my friends are not interested in me being sensitive to their "culture". They appreciate me being sensitive to them as an individual.

 

[Brishawk]

The hypothetical was clear. This happens in isolation. Yes or no?

It is simply not possible to say anything in isolation.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I guess in short, my friends are not interested in me being sensitive to their "culture". They appreciate me being sensitive to them as an individual.

I mean, sure, but to declare that being culturally aware is casual racism is a really odd take.

 

[SammyC]

It seems crux of the issue is not taking concerns expressed seriously, being dismissive of those concerns and not trying to understand the perspectives of Cyril and the other indigenous players.

I know it’s a controversial topic but goodes is case in point. The booing was a source of upset for our players and the club chose not to act on this. We as a club were not alone in this though - the afl took the same path.

However it started - goodes was a champion of our game and was ultimately bullied into retirement. That can’t be viewed as acceptable. If it didn’t start as racially motivated, it definitely finished that way. It seems that it was significant that we as a club didn’t see fit to publicly support goodes.

We as supporters also need to take some ownership for the upset caused - I recall the angst here when we wore the 67 guernsey for our WARM UP in the indigenous round.

I know Gil has reflected on the path they chose and would do it differently. I hope we as a club and supporters feel the same.

Finally I see the messages shared as a positive - it seems Cyril wanted to ensure Sam was viewed favourably. That suggests there is something to work with moving fwd.

 

[mcnulty]

It is simply not possible to say anything in isolation.

It a hypothetical. Let me put it another way then, seeing as you’re so shy:

If this had been the President of another club, with no known history of racial insensitivities do you think they should be sacked?

 

[Brishawk]

I guess in short, my friends are not interested in me being sensitive to their "culture". They appreciate me being sensitive to them as an individual.

Are people not allowed to be sensitive to their own cultural needs? I think you would be surprised how ingrained cultural needs and expectations are in society. If one culture has a social norm of engaging in idle chat in order to get to know a person and another culture likes to get straight to business, both groups may appear rude to each other without cultural understanding.

 

[Brishawk]

It a hypothetical. Let me put it another way then, seeing as you’re so shy:

If this had been the President of another club, with no known history of racial insensitivities do you think they should be sacked?

Lets say a guy named Eddie made several gaffs and refused to change and was not moved on from his club. Can you see how Eddie's club was worse for it and he ultimately left in greater shame than had he cleared the air for his club to heal? Everyone was worse off for Eddie staying.

 

[mcnulty]

Lets say a guy named Eddie made several gaffs and refused to change and was not moved on from his club. Can you see how Eddie's club was worse for it and he ultimately left in greater shame than had he cleared the air for his club to heal? Everyone was worse off for Eddie staying.

Ok deflection, sophistry, obfuscation. Genuine lolz. About at the bottom of your bag of tricks yet?

Or you could have a crack at the question.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

Are people not allowed to be sensitive to their own cultural needs? I think you would be surprised how ingrained cultural needs and expectations are in society. If one culture has a social norm of engaging in idle chat in order to get to know a person and another culture likes to get straight to business, both groups may appear rude to each other without cultural understanding.

I can't and won't say you're wrong, but I have never found it all that difficult to communicate with people (barring language barriers). It often means stepping out of my comfort zone, but at worst it's been a learning experience and has more often resulted in lasting friendships I never would have known.

 

[Phil McCreviss]

He he. Missed my post above obviously.

We like our aboriginals when they act like saints and don’t complain too much ….don’t we?

Brilliant. They should know their place

 

[Brishawk]

Ok deflection, sophistry, obfuscation. Genuine lolz. About at the bottom of your bag of tricks yet?

Or you could have a crack at the question.

I don't see any reason to engage in hypotheticals when we have a test case (Eddie) and our current club is in the situation it is in. Context is everything here and you are trying to ignore it in some attempt to change the situation away from reality. So my answer is, it depends on the context. I'd never be happy with it being said by a president to a players partner. You can leave the insults at the door.

 

[mcnulty]

I don't see any reason to engage in hypotheticals when we have a test case (Eddie) and our current club is in the situation it is in. Context is everything here and you are trying to ignore it in some attempt to change the situation away from reality. So my answer is, it depends on the context. I'd never be happy with it being said by a president to a players partner. You can leave the insults at the door.

Insults? It’s a pretty accurate reflection of your tactics here. You are obviously unwilling to answer a pretty straightforward question. Let’s leave it at that.

 

[Brishawk]

Insults? It’s a pretty accurate reflection of your tactics here. You are obviously unwilling to answer a pretty straightforward question. Let’s leave it at that.

So you think Jeff will change? Or that he will help the club heal?

 

[Gralin]

Not impressed with this style of arguing. If white supremacists use similar arguments to support their abhorrent world view, it's not because they believe in them. It's because they've deliberately worked out a nobler line to mask their hidden agenda. They've contaminated the message. An argument in support of equality for all is not in itself abhorrent (certainly wasn't in apartheid South Africa). 'Equality for all' might have its limitations or not take enough into account and may not be appropriate for all contexts but throwing this accusation in someone's face is poor form, especially when the poster in question seems to be wanting to engage in polite debate and an exchange of ideas.

Don't really give a shit whether you are impressed or not.

It's not a noble argument that has been hijacked.

The poster in question was arguing against things anti racism advocates from within communities impacted by racism call for and for things white supremacists use to counter those calls

Now they could be telling the truth that they aren't white, or theu could be trolling like they do with the rest of their time on this site.

I don't know but not being white doesn't mean you can't get sucked into wrong ideas or end up supporting systemic racism that isn't directed against you personally.

 

[Gralin]

C’mon people it’s First Nations


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no one accepted name
Some prefer First Nations, some Indigenous, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, some prefer to only refer to their nation.

The important thing there is really to be respectful.

Generally these names have been provided not by the people they are used to describe

I see a lot of lowercase Indigenous and uppercase Australian which I know autocorrect does but yeah

 

[mcnulty]

So you think Jeff will change? Or that he will help the club heal?

Nice. Dodge my questions and ask your own. No problem to me- I’ve already said Jeff should go. I think his position in untenable now and I think reconciliation with Rioli is far more important than his tenure continuing. But I don’t think the jeans episode is particularly damning for him.

Now why don’t you have a go.