News The Hawthorn Allegations

[sr36]

Just because this bloke says that they are appropriate to
“Arbitrate” this matter doesn’t mean that they are or that it’s appropriate.

I doubt that they have any real expertise in these matters and furthermore, I doubt that they would or can carry out an investigation into the allegations.

The leg work has to be done before anything is heard. At the moment there isn’t even a claim to arbitrate. Not a clear one anyway. Something would need to enliven their jurisdiction.

No idea what it means, but "enliven their jurisdiction" sounds a wee bit sexy.

 

[jmac70]

Sadly this thread demonstrates the divide will never be healed until both sides genuinely want it. At the moment that isn't the case.

The “divide” is justice. Aboriginal people want justice.
Despite decade upon decade of fighting for it, they still don’t have it.

 

[jonbe54]

The “divide” is justice. Aboriginal people want justice.
Despite decade upon decade of fighting for it, they still don’t have it.

The divide is about privilege and power.

When you cut a first nation off from their land and throw them into our urban jungles the result is catastrophic on so many levels.

Make no mistake our shining construct which we call Western civilization is on it's last legs and I'm glad I won't be around when it comes tumbling down. The people so many despise will be far better equipped to survive it and prosper than we.

 

[manicpie]

The divide is about privilege and power.

When you cut a first nation off from their land and throw them into our urban jungles the result is catastrophic on so many levels.

Make no mistake our shining construct which we call Western civilization is on it's last legs and I'm glad I won't be around when it comes tumbling down. The people so many despise will be far better equipped to survive it and prosper than we.

Might be time to have a rest from this thread, you're starting to sound a bit insane or at the very least, a drama queen

 

[manicpie]

The “divide” is justice. Aboriginal people want justice.
Despite decade upon decade of fighting for it, they still don’t have it.

The "Divide is dangerous", just like any other division in any other place on Earth.

 

[jmac70]

The "Divide is dangerous", just like any other division in any other place on Earth.

Treat everyone the same hey?

 

[noideaatall]

The divide is about privilege and power.

When you cut a first nation off from their land and throw them into our urban jungles the result is catastrophic on so many levels.

Make no mistake our shining construct which we call Western civilization is on it's last legs and I'm glad I won't be around when it comes tumbling down. The people so many despise will be far better equipped to survive it and prosper than we.

I am going to use your post to bounce off jonbe54, you judge if it is ignore worthy

I was working in the Ngnyaanatta Lands near two decades ago. For brevity sake I am going to focus on the key aspects of a story I was personally witness too. A bloke went for a drive and ended up killing his wife and burning her outside of the community around midday. By late afternoon the elders had met and he was speared by late afternoon. Before the end of that day he was on a helicopter to somewhere to deal with the wound - a business spear is more the size of your wrist as compared to a hunting spear the size of your finger. Story I heard was artery broken. Please note this is an area where at that time traditional laws applied.

I am not of the belief that the past held some amazing wisdom that current knowledge has lost. Not do I believe the current wisdom is inherently a progression on the past, history suggests both viewpoints are trivial. I do yearn for a world where we can, in a timely fashion and with respect, reach judgement over human behaviour. It shouldn't take months to sort this shite out, nor should it take years to sort the Higgins stuff out. We are being held ransom by hubris. In the attempt to have a just law system we have created an unjust system. It serves few: the wealthy, the mob that run it and the odd bod that doesn't fit the last two groups.

In a lot of ways, I would question your belief jonbe54. There are many values of the traditional community I lived in for two years that I do not share nor believe are in the best interests of a community moving forward. In regard to justice, I am totally there. We live in a world where justice comes through a system that moves faster than snail bait. It serves no ones needs but the mob that runs it. No doubt we needed to stop mob justice but our indigenous community worked that out way before white fellas made it to this land. They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon. On that level I agree, they know the way to move forward.

 

[jonbe54]

I am going to use your post to bounce off jonbe54, you judge if it is ignore worthy

I was working in the Ngnyaanatta Lands near two decades ago. For brevity sake I am going to focus on the key aspects of a story I was personally witness too. A bloke went for a drive and ended up killing his wife and burning her outside of the community around midday. By late afternoon the elders had met and he was speared by late afternoon. Before the end of that day he was on a helicopter to somewhere to deal with the wound - a business spear is more the size of your wrist as compared to a hunting spear the size of your finger. Story I heard was artery broken. Please note this is an area where at that time traditional laws applied.

I am not of the belief that the past held some amazing wisdom that current knowledge has lost. Not do I believe the current wisdom is inherently a progression on the past, history suggests both viewpoints are trivial. I do yearn for a world where we can, in a timely fashion and with respect, reach judgement over human behaviour. It shouldn't take months to sort this shite out, nor should it take years to sort the Higgins stuff out. We are being held ransom by hubris. In the attempt to have a just law system we have created an unjust system. It serves few: the wealthy, the mob that run it and the odd bod that doesn't fit the last two groups.

In a lot of ways, I would question your belief jonbe54. There are many values of the traditional community I lived in for two years that I do not share nor believe are in the best interests of a community moving forward. In regard to justice, I am totally there. We live in a world where justice comes through a system that moves faster than snail bait. It serves no ones needs but the mob that runs it. No doubt we needed to stop mob justice but our indigenous community worked that out way before white fellas made it to this land. They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon. On that level I agree, they know the way to move forward.

It's an extremely complex matter to be sure.

From a matter of personal perspective with no other experience aside from growing up in areas like Collingwood, Fitzroy and StKilda in the mid to late '60's and early '70's coloured my views.

If nothing else it showed me the depths of degradation possible and our refusal to accept any other form of judgement but our own.

Integration never was, isn't now and never will be even a part of the answer.

Surely the path lies somewhere in the middle between tradition and progress? Respect and the willingness to forge a partnership to move forward away from the old 'truths' can be a path onwards in justice and equality.

To be sure the surface acceptance has lifted but it's just surface.

Underneath - especially in economically depressed areas and circumstances - the basic prejudice and eagerness to judge in ignorance of fact remains unchanged.

Education is the key.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I am going to use your post to bounce off jonbe54, you judge if it is ignore worthy

I was working in the Ngnyaanatta Lands near two decades ago. For brevity sake I am going to focus on the key aspects of a story I was personally witness too. A bloke went for a drive and ended up killing his wife and burning her outside of the community around midday. By late afternoon the elders had met and he was speared by late afternoon. Before the end of that day he was on a helicopter to somewhere to deal with the wound - a business spear is more the size of your wrist as compared to a hunting spear the size of your finger. Story I heard was artery broken. Please note this is an area where at that time traditional laws applied.

I am not of the belief that the past held some amazing wisdom that current knowledge has lost. Not do I believe the current wisdom is inherently a progression on the past, history suggests both viewpoints are trivial. I do yearn for a world where we can, in a timely fashion and with respect, reach judgement over human behaviour. It shouldn't take months to sort this shite out, nor should it take years to sort the Higgins stuff out. We are being held ransom by hubris. In the attempt to have a just law system we have created an unjust system. It serves few: the wealthy, the mob that run it and the odd bod that doesn't fit the last two groups.

In a lot of ways, I would question your belief jonbe54. There are many values of the traditional community I lived in for two years that I do not share nor believe are in the best interests of a community moving forward. In regard to justice, I am totally there. We live in a world where justice comes through a system that moves faster than snail bait. It serves no ones needs but the mob that runs it. No doubt we needed to stop mob justice but our indigenous community worked that out way before white fellas made it to this land. They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon. On that level I agree, they know the way to move forward.

And there are an incredible number of values and beliefs in Aboriginal communities that not only hold them together, but the rest of Australia could learn from. We seem to always focus on the negatives in Aboriginal communities.

 

[jonbe54]

And there are an incredible number of values and beliefs in Aboriginal communities that not only hold them together, but the rest of Australia could learn from. We seem to always focus on the negatives in Aboriginal communities.

Agreed and those negatives are sometimes rooted in European interference such as inappropriate random government handouts with no actual aim other than to pander to the sensitives of European armchair moralists, without due consideration of the impact on real communities.

 

[South of the Yarra]

I am going to use your post to bounce off jonbe54, you judge if it is ignore worthy

I was working in the Ngnyaanatta Lands near two decades ago. For brevity sake I am going to focus on the key aspects of a story I was personally witness too. A bloke went for a drive and ended up killing his wife and burning her outside of the community around midday. By late afternoon the elders had met and he was speared by late afternoon. Before the end of that day he was on a helicopter to somewhere to deal with the wound - a business spear is more the size of your wrist as compared to a hunting spear the size of your finger. Story I heard was artery broken. Please note this is an area where at that time traditional laws applied.

I am not of the belief that the past held some amazing wisdom that current knowledge has lost. Not do I believe the current wisdom is inherently a progression on the past, history suggests both viewpoints are trivial. I do yearn for a world where we can, in a timely fashion and with respect, reach judgement over human behaviour. It shouldn't take months to sort this shite out, nor should it take years to sort the Higgins stuff out. We are being held ransom by hubris. In the attempt to have a just law system we have created an unjust system. It serves few: the wealthy, the mob that run it and the odd bod that doesn't fit the last two groups.

In a lot of ways, I would question your belief jonbe54. There are many values of the traditional community I lived in for two years that I do not share nor believe are in the best interests of a community moving forward. In regard to justice, I am totally there. We live in a world where justice comes through a system that moves faster than snail bait. It serves no ones needs but the mob that runs it. No doubt we needed to stop mob justice but our indigenous community worked that out way before white fellas made it to this land. They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon. On that level I agree, they know the way to move forward.

In the best interest of which community? Is it Ngaanyatjarra Lands where you were because if so there are many many very varied Aboriginal communities there. Kiwirrkurra is very different to Tjukurla for example

 

[Black_White]

North Melbourne think it’s only a flesh wound.
Clarkson agrees.
But….

 

[noideaatall]

In the best interest of which community? Is it Ngaanyatjarra Lands where you were because if so there are many many very varied Aboriginal communities there. Kiwirrkurra is very different to Tjukurla for example

Kiwirrkurra I visited but was not considered part of the area I worked in. I base that statement on the movement and interaction of the people I worked with. Traditionally connected but not so much in more recent times with the missions and in the influx of people from the lands emptied as a result of nuclear tests. Tjurkulra (assuming you mean the same community I am thinking with a name in english close to this) I spent some time in and more connected to the community I spend the majority of my time in: Warrakurna. They could be decribed as many different communities, they could be better understood as a collection of many different families who "owned" different lands. As a white fella I connected with them as people, I never had the time to really understand the family and land relationships.

But I really don't understand your question: in best interest of which community?

 

[noideaatall]

In the best interest of which community? Is it Ngaanyatjarra Lands where you were because if so there are many many very varied Aboriginal communities there. Kiwirrkurra is very different to Tjukurla for example

Sorry I may have missed the intent of of your question. They event happened outside of Papulankutja. I have no idea outside of location as to what elders were involved.

 

[Pie eyed]

The “divide” is justice. Aboriginal people want justice.
Despite decade upon decade of fighting for it, they still don’t have it.

One of the real issues with "reconciliation" on a wider scale is that there is no overarching agreement from indigenous people of what "justice" actually entails.
This is a major reason why "the Voice to Parliament" has to go ahead, as this will, over time, and I am thinking decades, lead to and enable a "definition" of the Justice they seek to evolve, become widely accepted by the majority (of indigenous) and then once established, be acted upon through legislation of the Parliament.

Not taking part in the very process they have initiated in the Hawthorn case is a retrograde step.
There is no guarantee the result will be "exactly" what they want, but without their input you can be sure it won't be at all what they want and regardless, will not have any weight in the wider community without the participation of the complainants..

 

[Fat Jesus]

If the AFL bend over it wouldn't surprise me. You think families make this sort of shit up.

Clarko needs a rest.

 

[sr36]

One of the real issues with "reconciliation" on a wider scale is that there is no overarching agreement from indigenous people of what "justice" actually entails.
This is a major reason why "the Voice to Parliament" has to go ahead, as this will, over time, and I am thinking decades, lead to and enable a "definition" of the Justice they seek to evolve, become widely accepted by the majority (of indigenous) and then once established, be acted upon through legislation of the Parliament.

Not taking part in the very process they have initiated in the Hawthorn case is a retrograde step.
There is no guarantee the result will be "exactly" what they want, but without their input you can be sure it won't be at all what they want and regardless, will not have any weight in the wider community without the participation of the complainants..

Part of the problem is that as always it's a case of we'll deal with your issue on our terms. And the AFL, rather than negotiating, within days, went straight to insisting upon terms and pressuring adherence to and participation with those terms.

 

[jmac70]

One of the real issues with "reconciliation" on a wider scale is that there is no overarching agreement from indigenous people of what "justice" actually entails.
This is a major reason why "the Voice to Parliament" has to go ahead, as this will, over time, and I am thinking decades, lead to and enable a "definition" of the Justice they seek to evolve, become widely accepted by the majority (of indigenous) and then once established, be acted upon through legislation of the Parliament.

Not taking part in the very process they have initiated in the Hawthorn case is a retrograde step.
There is no guarantee the result will be "exactly" what they want, but without their input you can be sure it won't be at all what they want and regardless, will not have any weight in the wider community without the participation of the complainants..

Just as there is no agreement within non-indigenous people.
We crack on regardless.

The families involved with the Hawthorn inquiry have every right to allow their original truth to stand, and not participate in the AFL Investigation.

Let’s face it, the AFL won’t be uncovering a smoking gun.

Clarko is back at work next week isn’t he?

 

[jmac70]

I am going to use your post to bounce off jonbe54, you judge if it is ignore worthy

I was working in the Ngnyaanatta Lands near two decades ago. For brevity sake I am going to focus on the key aspects of a story I was personally witness too. A bloke went for a drive and ended up killing his wife and burning her outside of the community around midday. By late afternoon the elders had met and he was speared by late afternoon. Before the end of that day he was on a helicopter to somewhere to deal with the wound - a business spear is more the size of your wrist as compared to a hunting spear the size of your finger. Story I heard was artery broken. Please note this is an area where at that time traditional laws applied.

I am not of the belief that the past held some amazing wisdom that current knowledge has lost. Not do I believe the current wisdom is inherently a progression on the past, history suggests both viewpoints are trivial. I do yearn for a world where we can, in a timely fashion and with respect, reach judgement over human behaviour. It shouldn't take months to sort this shite out, nor should it take years to sort the Higgins stuff out. We are being held ransom by hubris. In the attempt to have a just law system we have created an unjust system. It serves few: the wealthy, the mob that run it and the odd bod that doesn't fit the last two groups.

In a lot of ways, I would question your belief jonbe54. There are many values of the traditional community I lived in for two years that I do not share nor believe are in the best interests of a community moving forward. In regard to justice, I am totally there. We live in a world where justice comes through a system that moves faster than snail bait. It serves no ones needs but the mob that runs it. No doubt we needed to stop mob justice but our indigenous community worked that out way before white fellas made it to this land. They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon. On that level I agree, they know the way to move forward.

Very interesting post.
Have to ask what relevance it has to the story told by the Hawthorn families?

 

[sr36]

Very interesting post.
Have to ask what relevance it has to the story told by the Hawthorn families?

Speed of outcome.

 

[Pie eyed]

Part of the problem is that as always it's a case of we'll deal with your issue on our terms. And the AFL, rather than negotiating, within days, went straight to insisting upon terms and pressuring adherence to and participation with those terms.

I agree, however......
There is an unrealistic expectation, especially from the media, the football media especially, that these thing be dealt with immediately and any, even the slightest hint, of taking a patient approach draws an immediate and totally unrealistic hyperbolic response bordering on irrational from the same media.
Look at what happened to the Pies in regard the "do better" report.

Rushed or knee jerk responses to issues from the likes of Collingwood and the AFL to media hysteria is direct result OF the hysteria generated by the media.

The football media in general and on the whole are not trained journalists and do not abide by any code of ethics. They are largely ex-players, of questionable intellect with huge mouths and egos whose livelihood depends on manufacturing stories.
Regards to recent football related indigenous issues the media bears a fair share of the blame for missed opportunities and failed attempts to resolve complaints.

Idiot in point is the dickhead Cornes.

He needs neutering, just for the fun.

 

[Pie eyed]

Just as there is no agreement within non-indigenous people.
We crack on regardless.

The families involved with the Hawthorn inquiry have every right to allow their original truth to stand, and not participate in the AFL Investigation.

Let’s face it, the AFL won’t be uncovering a smoking gun.

Clarko is back at work next week isn’t he?

I am not questioning the families "truth"
They have said their piece.

If they or anyone else for that matter thinks that there will be any substantial action against those they have accused without, what European Australians consider due investigation they are wrong.
Nobody is ever going to just take their word for it and enact some form of penalty against the alleged perpetrators.


If they are happy they said their piece and there is a fair chance nothing will come of it then that is their choice.

I think it is a wasted opportunity.

There is no other means for them to get any further than to prosecute the issue by way of an investigation.
There is probably no legal recourse even in the best of situations and they will only see civil repercussions imposed if a case is upheld against those they accused.

 

[sr36]

I am not questioning the families "truth"
They have said their piece.

If they or anyone else for that matter thinks that there will be any substantial action against those they have accused without, what European Australians consider due investigation they are wrong.
Nobody is ever going to just take their word for it and enact some form of penalty against the alleged perpetrators.

Don't know. I think the coaches are cooked with or without participation from the families. Racism or accusations of it are such a big issue and enough will come out for some negative findings.

Here are the outcomes from the Yorkshire cricket club review, where 14 people lost their jobs in what was basically a he said/ she said scenario with far less explosive material than the Hawks scandal:

Of the 43 complaints submitted, the report upheld seven complaints. These were:

• Rafiq was not provided with halal food when playing junior cricket for Yorkshire.
• Before 2010, three separate incidents of racist language being used by former players were identified. These were determined to be harassment on the grounds of race.
• Before 2012, a former coach regularly used racist language.
• During his second tenure at Yorkshire (2016–2018), jokes made about religion which made "individuals uncomfortable about their religious practices."
• Between 2016 and 2018, a player made references to Rafiq's weight and fitness that amounted to bullying.
• In August 2018, when Azeem Rafiq raised concerns of racism there was a failure by the club to follow its own policy or investigate these allegations.
• On a number of occasions prior to 2018 the club could have done more to make Muslims more welcome within their stadiums and should have dealt better with complaints of racist or anti-social behaviour within those stadiums."

 

[Pie eyed]

Don't know. I think the coaches are cooked with or without participation from the families. Racism or accusations of it are such a big issue and enough will come out for some negative findings.

Here are the outcomes from the Yorkshire cricket club review, where 14 people lost their jobs in what was basically a he said/ she said scenario with far less explosive material than the Hawks scandal:

Of the 43 complaints submitted, the report upheld seven complaints. These were:

• Rafiq was not provided with halal food when playing junior cricket for Yorkshire.
• Before 2010, three separate incidents of racist language being used by former players were identified. These were determined to be harassment on the grounds of race.
• Before 2012, a former coach regularly used racist language.
• During his second tenure at Yorkshire (2016–2018), jokes made about religion which made "individuals uncomfortable about their religious practices."
• Between 2016 and 2018, a player made references to Rafiq's weight and fitness that amounted to bullying.
• In August 2018, when Azeem Rafiq raised concerns of racism there was a failure by the club to follow its own policy or investigate these allegations.
• On a number of occasions prior to 2018 the club could have done more to make Muslims more welcome within their stadiums and should have dealt better with complaints of racist or anti-social behaviour within those stadiums."

I am not saying there won't be repercussions on a professional level for those named, there may well be.
There certainly won't be any criminal or civil repercussions in a legal sense. There most definitely will not be any acceptable progress, from either side of the argument, on the specific issues if the "injured" don't take part in the resolution, whatever that may be.

Depending on your viewpoint, at worst, a couple of coaches may cease to coach and a pretty decent number of non-indigenous people will see this as an injustice, blame the victims and set the whole issue back another few years to a decade. There will be an increase in idiots who attach a small Aussie flag to all their posts and using meaningless terms like "woke" in their social media.

 

[noideaatall]

Very interesting post.
Have to ask what relevance it has to the story told by the Hawthorn families?

It was a response to jonbe54's post. Key point is second last sentence: "They worked out how to make a judgement in an afternoon." In regards to the story told by the Hawthorn families I am disappointed that it takes so long to get anywhere.