List Mgmt. 2025 List Management 📃

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gbatman said:
We chose a totally cooked version of Cincotta who was horrible and Kennedy as sub who was horrible. Dropped fit, form players who brought much needed pace and run for other fringe players who were not fit and brought no run at all.

Fisher and Dow had performed well in a big game just prior to finals against Melbourne, a game that was practically a final so the not big game players goes out the window.

Voss did exactly the same thing this year. Went back to his favorites despite slowing the team down and them not having fitness or form. The only difference was we got smashed instead of scraping out two wins. Wins which came mostly because both opposition kicked horribly for goal.
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I agree in principle, but there's speed and then there's quality speed. Dow has neither, and Fisher is a player with a sidestep who has bottled it in close games for two clubs now.

The H&A game where they were both decent may have been a finals for us, but the SF was an actual final with a different level of physicality.
 
gbatman said:
We chose a totally cooked version of Cincotta who was horrible and Kennedy as sub who was horrible. Dropped fit, form players who brought much needed pace and run for other fringe players who were not fit and brought no run at all.

Fisher and Dow had performed well in a big game just prior to finals against Melbourne, a game that was practically a final so the not big game players goes out the window.

Voss did exactly the same thing this year. Went back to his favorites despite slowing the team down and them not having fitness or form. The only difference was we got smashed instead of scraping out two wins. Wins which came mostly because both opposition kicked horribly for goal.



A lot of people blinded by winning a couple of finals. If 2023 was successful then the bar most certainly is low. We would have been marginally better with more pace. My opinion won't change on that. The last two seasons, every time we inject even a little pace into the team it improves significantly. We picked the slowest side we could for finals, struggled through two finals, won with a lot of luck involved and were outpaced in the prelim. Melbourne and/or Sydney don't have a mare in front of goal in 2023 and there would be more people agreeing with me.

Voss is proving that when it comes to finals, he falls back to his 'safe' options. Rather than sticking with players who bring improvement to the side and have good performances under their belt he has proven last year and this year that he falls back to his safe options. I would definitely call that choking. That and being afraid to play the young players all season. It wreaks of fear poor confidence.

The fact that Voss has this mantra of "finals are different" wreaks of fear. The idea that finals are different is BS. They are different for the first 10 minutes because everyone goes super hard. Fundamentals are the same. Game is the same.

I don't trust Voss to select the team well each week and I certainly don't trust him to get it right come finals. He's too reliant on favorites/players he rates at the expense of team balance and form/fitness. He's proven this over and over again. It's a weakness in his coaching.

I've gone over it before, the selections throughout the season and particularly in this and last years finals series being poor. They took the pace out of the team. They took away the run off half back and in the middle. Cuningham is the other selection which we got wrong in 2023. He was probably our best defensive half forward and we got smashed off the half back line. In the end it's up to the coach to pick a side that is fit, has form and has a really good team balance and he's failed to do that because he can't stop himself picking his favorites.
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Sorry but i just can't find a point to agree on with any of that.

And to say Dow and Fisher are now big game players because you believe they played well in one game that had a finals type feel is drawing a very long bow. Funny how they can't cement their spots in their new teams either.

Your view on finals is very odd but i'm sure you've watched enough to know better than those who have played in them.

You make a strong case that Voss should give more game time to players that are not best 22 here or at any other club, backed up by the trade period. He has favorites he brings back like Kennedy, can you see him bringing Kennedy back now? Maybe it's less about bringing players back that he favors and more about the group of misfits who beat the eagles are probably not first choice finals players. They do run fast though, i'll give you that.
 
lopezz said:
You make a strong case that Voss should give more game time to players that are not best 22 here or at any other club, backed up by the trade period. He has favorites he brings back like Kennedy, can you see him bringing Kennedy back now? Maybe it's less about bringing players back that he favors and more about the group of misfits who beat the eagles are probably not first choice finals players. They do run fast though, i'll give you that.
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There is no universe in which Cerra should have played against Brisbane. Tagging Zorko with Cincotta was the biggest no brainer in history. I agree with our list changes this year but Voss clearly needs to trust players who are fit and in form more than he currently does.
 

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lopezz said:
Sorry but i just can't find a point to agree on with any of that.

And to say Dow and Fisher are now big game players because you believe they played well in one game that had a finals type feel is drawing a very long bow. Funny how they can't cement their spots in their new teams either.

Your view on finals is very odd but i'm sure you've watched enough to know better than those who have played in them.

You make a strong case that Voss should give more game time to players that are not best 22 here or at any other club, backed up by the trade period. He has favorites he brings back like Kennedy, can you see him bringing Kennedy back now? Maybe it's less about bringing players back that he favors and more about the group of misfits who beat the eagles are probably not first choice finals players. They do run fast though, i'll give you that.
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Think bringing in a bunch of underdone players and resting Kennedy was a gamble which didn't pay off. Ideally we have our best players all fit and firing come September...that wasn't available to us this year.

Biggest issue for mine still is our structures and gameplan, not the personnel choices. When forced to kick to Kemp as our main target, we showed that we can have dynamic ball movement. A good coaching team will make us look even more dangerous when we have Charlie and Harry back int he side...not back to one dimension.

We have the cattle to have good forward movement, it's a sub-optimal gameplan that is the issue.
 
branedotorg said:
Pick 3, billy wilson, Hollands boys, docherty even C durdin can make our midfield less predictable
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Exactly. Durdin was drafted as a mid. He may not make it as a mid but a couple of minutes on the ball when we're struggling or need to try something other than win contested ball could be the difference
 
gbatman said:
We chose a totally cooked version of Cincotta who was horrible and Kennedy as sub who was horrible. Dropped fit, form players who brought much needed pace and run for other fringe players who were not fit and brought no run at all.

Fisher and Dow had performed well in a big game just prior to finals against Melbourne, a game that was practically a final so the not big game players goes out the window.
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I agree with you on this up until the point of deploying Fisher as a defender: he was getting exposed.

In the end of got us a great pick from North, but yeah I would have gone in a different direction in terms of the 22nd/23rd spot in the team.

Dow earned the right to play finals, that was such a bizarre move spurred on by the GWS game where the game plan and selection was awful and - with the greatest respect to the neurodivergent among us - looked like the handiwork of someone with undiagnosed and rampant ADHD hyperfixation.

GWS just made a ring around Charlie and we kept kicking it to him non-stop, as though cultivating alternate options wouldn't have given him as many opportunities on goal.

The lack of spread and pressure in midfield was a team effort, and yet it fell on Dow's head and somehow Pittonet became the solution.

No Pittonet and playing Dow would have probably made our finals run a heck of a lot easier, and we would have had more in the tank against Brisbane.

Similar story in 2024* really, somehow never learned the lesson.

EDIT: whoops wrong year
 
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Magruder said:
remind me what we got for Mitch Robinson too..

i know he lied to the club but... he was what 26 or so?, 100 games in to what would be about a 250 game career.

ouch
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The senior players wanted him gone, they had lost confidence in him over several incidents. He went on to make a fist of his time at Brisbane due to being delisted by Carlton, not despite it. It was the kick up the bum he needed, he has admitted as much himself. He was off the rails at Carlton.
 
gab213 said:
The senior players wanted him gone, they had lost confidence in him over several incidents. He went on to make a fist of his time at Brisbane due to being delisted by Carlton, not despite it. It was the kick up the bum he needed, he has admitted as much himself. He was off the rails at Carlton.
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He also ended up getting booted from Brisbane in an unfashionable way for the same reasons by all reports
 
gab213 said:
The senior players wanted him gone, they had lost confidence in him over several incidents. He went on to make a fist of his time at Brisbane due to being delisted by Carlton, not despite it. It was the kick up the bum he needed, he has admitted as much himself. He was off the rails at Carlton.
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WalshistheGOAT said:
He also ended up getting booted from Brisbane in an unfashionable way for the same reasons by all reports
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Not arguing with the reasoning.

But it hurts when you let a decent player in their prime go for nix.

Add it to the rest of the drafting and recruitment that off-season and you have an unmitigated cluster ****
 

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El Topo said:
Not meaning to pile on here - and it's all counterfactual now - but this is just surreal.

Fisher is the absolute opposite of a big game player and doesn't belong within a million light years of a finals side, and Dow was only ever injury cover for Cerra and Walsh. Even with injury and suspension these two guys were nowhere near it.
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Glad ZF is no longer up for selection at CFC, it was a good trade to move him on, offers very little at AFL level. Most frustrating player and buckles under pressure.
 
The Bighouse said:
Glad ZF is no longer up for selection at CFC, it was a good trade to move him on, offers very little at AFL level. Most frustrating player and buckles under pressure.
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I'm not sure if Norf fans are overly enamoured by him either.

Good trading by Austin though to turn Fisher into Billy the Kid :thumbsu::cool:
 
btdg said:
I think it's really about the strategy of drafting though. There is a bunch of advantages that come with F/S over and beyond having the rights to the player themselves

The biggest benefit of F/S and academy imo is how big the information gap between the club and every other club is when it comes to these prospects, combined with having an 'option' to bid on them.

We have seen the Camporeale kids up close, know how they train, how they interact with other members of the club, how they fit within our systems. Other clubs have... some SANFL reserves matches and a handful of games against other Under 18s (I don't think they even did the combine?).

There is a real game theory element to this. Let's say a player like Ben Camporeale is predicted to go somewhere in the 20s and we can match using a discount (pick 38).

If you are a non-Carlton club, you have a real conundrum here. If you are a club that holds a pick in the 20s and you bid on Camporeal there are two possible scenarios:
1. Carlton (who have more info than you) think he is worth matching. In which case the other club misses out
2. Carlton (who have more info than you) think he is not worth bidding even though we can match with PICK 38 (ie - a discount).

For any club with a pick in the 20s, to actually GET a Camporeale brother means they have just used a pick in the 20s on a player that an opponent (who have a family connection, and have a lot more info about the player) have avoided even with a discount applied... instant buyers remorse.

It really only makes sense to bid on a Camporeale brother with a pick roughly around our next pick - mid 30s.

But, by this point in the draft, lets also remember that club preferences and player ratings diverge quite highly. Clubs also only have a certain number of picks and list spots, may be targetting certain 'types', and will see players they have scouted heavily slide, etc.

So having established that no-one wants to bid on Camporeale with a pick in the 20s, now its teams in the 30s, but lets now throw some hypotheticals in here (remembering picks will be traded all over the place):

  • pick 31 --> this team is targeting a ruck, saw 2 of the 3 prospects they like go already, and don't want to miss out, so they take a ruck
  • pick 32 --> this team really liked a guy predicted to go in the late teens, but who slid in the draft... they rate him clearly above Camporeale
  • pick 33--> this team is stacked with young midfielders. They aren't going to be able to get Camporeale playing time, and probably want more outside run anyway.
  • pick 34 is a Northern state team. They LOVE Camporeale, but see no point in bidding on a player who has family in SA AND a family connection in Melboure who is a flight risk. There is a decent Queensland prospect sitting right there...
  • pick 35 --> already used this pick to match a F/S bid of their own
  • pick 36 --> this team doesn't really have a list spot free. Crazy, but they've looked at the board, and would rather keep a spot open for a late free agent or rookie upgrade...
  • pick 37 ---> really think hard about bidding on Camporeale. I mean, why not just make Carlton use the points next bid. But, they aren't Dodoro or Silvagni, and in fact, they get on well with the other list managers, and next year they have a couple of academy prospects of their own, and they just decide not to do it...

And suddenly even though every team rates Ben Camporeale somewhere in the 20s, we're getting our pick 38

And the from here, who knows how far he slides. At this stage, EVERY club knows that we're able to match with trash picks, we're getting a bit of a steal -> there's little point bidding at all and wasting everyone's time. Particularly because this is the tricky part of the draft and they've got a lot to think about with their own picks...

It's possible someone really likes Camporeale (ie rates him as close to top 10) and bids at 20. But in a deep draft, it's equally possible that we don't see a bid until the 40s or 50s imo... works out great for us.

Take a more extreme version of that logic and apply to Lucas - he might be rated by everyone as a good prospect, but there's no way anyone bothers bidding imo - he's a very strong chance to get to the rookie draft
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A couple of years ago, Lucas was tracking better than Ben and was looking like a top 10-15 prospect. Last year, Ben started getting more midfield minutes and developed a bit quicker than Lucas did and he jumped over Lucas in the ratings.

Then apply all your commentary and you have the truth of the matter. Ben and Lucas are actually top 30 players, anywhere between 15 and 30 and this is a loaded draft. Both boys would sit at a club for a couple of years for their initial contract and then ask for a trade to Carlton if they were bid on too early by another club. But no other club is going to bid on them when there are players who are as good as them available at where they’d be taken. Ben was the BOG at the futures game last year and was the SA MVP this year. But he’ll get to our pick unless SOS wants to be a w***er.
 
Not signing Houston was an error if the club really had confidence in what Voss was doing - compounded by giving up the pick he would have cost and another next to it for an upgrade to a pick 3-4.

what I surmise from all that is that this is a make or break year for Voss - and the club is hedging its bets - after the Fantasia - call 'we are not really interested in your past relationships with past players - buzz orf is a clear message- as was Kennedy's to Voss as well.

getting rid of Marchbank/Cuningham/Martin was very positive along with some dead weight never gunna make it types in vfl - as it makes more room for McGovern/Cerra to become the new always injured types - alongside Fantasia/Durdin short and Durdin tall and /Motlop

Can understand the angst about owies v fantasia- I'd add owies v motlop v durdin to the comparisons - a useless bunch of smalls as you'd ever see assembled in a supposed contending list.

after reflecting on the end to the season - I'm now on the neutral(ish) to negative side of the Voss ledger - his handling of the last few weeks and the elimination finals was just awful - compounded by pushing a solid citizen who cost Carlton nothing and played every game for the year much better than more than half the starting players could manage - out.

Kennedy on top of his elimination finals selections (tdk as sub really I mean really!!) was just too much 'creativity' for me to handle.

would have been much smarter to play all the kids - and not force unfit players to play - this strategy wouldn't have seen a 10-goal-to-nothing start to a final- what an embarrassment we all had to live through.


Only writing this as I am in Melbourne for a few days and happened to be sitting near Harry Mckay and his gf over brunch in sunny Albert Park this morning - what a gentle nice fellow he is in real life - and no I didn't give him my autograph.

not very confident about 2025 tbh - still no decent 2nd tall and lots of questions about the forward line - still.

I doubt that a new fitness person is going to be a magic pill for some of the players who have been on teh list- but if he is an improvement over russell - at least he is starting teh right way - pointing out that fitness is ok but strength isnt Sydney or AFl standards- doh- finally someone at carlton that understands you need some muscle to play contact football - what a relief.

lots of things have to go right in 2025 - to see any improvement in my books - and I am not high on optimism.

As for pick 3 or 4 - couldn't care less- they (too) are only an injury away from being another Walsh or Cerra or a even worse- a dow or SPS.

TLDR - no worries - her is some simple algebra.

Contending Clubs dont reach for pick 3's they reach for players that can help them win a GF- clearly the Club isnt confident about that second idea.
 
JustaBattler said:
Not signing Houston was an error if the club really had confidence in what Voss was doing - compounded by giving up the pick he would have cost and another next to it for an upgrade to a pick 3-4.

what I surmise from all that is that this is a make or break year for Voss - and the club is hedging its bets - after the Fantasia - call 'we are not really interested in your past relationships with past players - buzz orf is a clear message- as was Kennedy's to Voss as well.

getting rid of Marchbank/Cuningham/Martin was very positive along with some dead weight never gunna make it types in vfl - as it makes more room for McGovern/Cerra to become the new always injured types - alongside Fantasia/Durdin short and Durdin tall and /Motlop

Can understand the angst about owies v fantasia- I'd add owies v motlop v durdin to the comparisons - a useless bunch of smalls as you'd ever see assembled in a supposed contending list.

after reflecting on the end to the season - I'm now on the neutral(ish) to negative side of the Voss ledger - his handling of the last few weeks and the elimination finals was just awful - compounded by pushing a solid citizen who cost Carlton nothing and played every game for the year much better than more than half the starting players could manage - out.

Kennedy on top of his elimination finals selections (tdk as sub really I mean really!!) was just too much 'creativity' for me to handle.

would have been much smarter to play all the kids - and not force unfit players to play - this strategy wouldn't have seen a 10-goal-to-nothing start to a final- what an embarrassment we all had to live through.


Only writing this as I am in Melbourne for a few days and happened to be sitting near Harry Mckay and his gf over brunch in sunny Albert Park this morning - what a gentle nice fellow he is in real life - and no I didn't give him my autograph.

not very confident about 2025 tbh - still no decent 2nd tall and lots of questions about the forward line - still.

I doubt that a new fitness person is going to be a magic pill for some of the players who have been on teh list- but if he is an improvement over russell - at least he is starting teh right way - pointing out that fitness is ok but strength isnt Sydney or AFl standards- doh- finally someone at carlton that understands you need some muscle to play contact football - what a relief.

lots of things have to go right in 2025 - to see any improvement in my books - and I am not high on optimism.

As for pick 3 or 4 - couldn't care less- they (too) are only an injury away from being another Walsh or Cerra or a even worse- a dow or SPS.

TLDR - no worries - her is some simple algebra.

Contending Clubs dont reach for pick 3's they reach for players that can help them win a GF- clearly the Club isnt confident about that second idea.
Click to expand...
images.jpeg
 
JustaBattler said:
Not signing Houston was an error if the club really had confidence in what Voss was doing - compounded by giving up the pick he would have cost and another next to it for an upgrade to a pick 3-4.

what I surmise from all that is that this is a make or break year for Voss - and the club is hedging its bets - after the Fantasia - call 'we are not really interested in your past relationships with past players - buzz orf is a clear message- as was Kennedy's to Voss as well.

getting rid of Marchbank/Cuningham/Martin was very positive along with some dead weight never gunna make it types in vfl - as it makes more room for McGovern/Cerra to become the new always injured types - alongside Fantasia/Durdin short and Durdin tall and /Motlop

Can understand the angst about owies v fantasia- I'd add owies v motlop v durdin to the comparisons - a useless bunch of smalls as you'd ever see assembled in a supposed contending list.

after reflecting on the end to the season - I'm now on the neutral(ish) to negative side of the Voss ledger - his handling of the last few weeks and the elimination finals was just awful - compounded by pushing a solid citizen who cost Carlton nothing and played every game for the year much better than more than half the starting players could manage - out.

Kennedy on top of his elimination finals selections (tdk as sub really I mean really!!) was just too much 'creativity' for me to handle.

would have been much smarter to play all the kids - and not force unfit players to play - this strategy wouldn't have seen a 10-goal-to-nothing start to a final- what an embarrassment we all had to live through.


Only writing this as I am in Melbourne for a few days and happened to be sitting near Harry Mckay and his gf over brunch in sunny Albert Park this morning - what a gentle nice fellow he is in real life - and no I didn't give him my autograph.

not very confident about 2025 tbh - still no decent 2nd tall and lots of questions about the forward line - still.

I doubt that a new fitness person is going to be a magic pill for some of the players who have been on teh list- but if he is an improvement over russell - at least he is starting teh right way - pointing out that fitness is ok but strength isnt Sydney or AFl standards- doh- finally someone at carlton that understands you need some muscle to play contact football - what a relief.

lots of things have to go right in 2025 - to see any improvement in my books - and I am not high on optimism.

As for pick 3 or 4 - couldn't care less- they (too) are only an injury away from being another Walsh or Cerra or a even worse- a dow or SPS.

TLDR - no worries - her is some simple algebra.

Contending Clubs dont reach for pick 3's they reach for players that can help them win a GF- clearly the Club isnt confident about that second idea.
Click to expand...
Nope, sorry. Not having it. Not reading all that garbage again. See my response in the Carlton v Collingwood 2024/5 who's better thread.

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