2010 Midfield(s) - Rate

[The Donners]

Well you're either too young to remember or have simply forgotten when he was widely regarded as equal to Judd. He may not have had an excellent year in 2009 but he still has the traits of an elite midfielder. All he needs is a new bill of health and the ball in his hands.

I see little difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, only Burgoyne's best was 3 years ago. They're both unaccountable, both well skilled... only difference is Lovett is quick. I'd say it's because Lovett is a moron that most people don't rate him at least as high as Burgoyne.

Burgoyne has never and will never be as good as Judd, for starts Judd had explosive pace, Burgoyne has never had explosive pace. The comparisons were comical and yes I remember them, I'm old enough to remember the '84/'85 premierships (not having a dig at you but they're my earliest memories of footy). Burgoyne was the flavour of the month.

Sorry, I've never rated Burgoyne and he's only ever had 1 really good season and even then he only averaged 20 touches - 3 years ago.

 

[Pigdog]

What about Selwood? Players don't usually hit their peak till about 23-25. Also for most of this year we had Bartel & Corey covering our injuries in defence, so our structure should be alot stronger in that aspect next year.

That's one.

I still don't think his level of improvement will be as great as someone like Ward who plays a similar style and actually outpointed him in the QF.

 

[HibSam]

Hayes > Mitchell
Dal Santo < Sewell
Montagna = Burgoyne (Both had 1 stand out year)
Goddard < Hodge
Lovett = Bateman (Maybe slightly in lovetts favour)
Ball < Lewis (Would have been Ball but with his injury he isn't a shadow of his former self)

I fail to see how St Kildas is "easily" better than ours.

Ok, lets match the players up to a similar opposition player (this is for 2010):

Hayes = Sewell (Hayes had better 09', but I rate Sewell and think he can still improve)
NDS > Hodge (This year for sure and I reckon same for next)
Goddard > Mitchell (Goddard better skills + kicks goals)
Montagna = Bourgoyne (Am tempted to give it to Montagna, but unsure what the Burger can bring, so we'll call it even)
Lovett = Bateman (Really havent seen much of either player, Bateman didn't follow through on his good 09' form and Lovett should improve in better side)
Ball < Lewis (Also rate Lewis highly and think he just gets over Ball)

Saints just have the edge IMO.

I see little difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, only Burgoyne's best was 3 years ago. They're both unaccountable, both well skilled... only difference is Lovett is quick. I'd say it's because Lovett is a moron that most people don't rate him at least as high as Burgoyne.

Burgoyne has never and will never be as good as Judd, for starts Judd had explosive pace, Burgoyne has never had explosive pace. The comparisons were comical and yes I remember them, I'm old enough to remember the '84/'85 premierships (not having a dig at you but they're my earliest memories of footy). Burgoyne was the flavour of the month.

Sorry, I've never rated Burgoyne and he's only ever had 1 really good season and even then he only averaged 20 touches - 3 years ago.

In Bourgoyne's prime, wasn't he able to burst open packs with ease and burn off the opposition? I could be wrong, but I thought he has explosive pace - I havent seen him play in so long, so I'm not 100%.

 

[QuietB]

I see little difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, only Burgoyne's best was 3 years ago. They're both unaccountable, both well skilled... only difference is Lovett is quick. I'd say it's because Lovett is a moron that most people don't rate him at least as high as Burgoyne.

Burgoyne has never and will never be as good as Judd, for starts Judd had explosive pace, Burgoyne has never had explosive pace. The comparisons were comical and yes I remember them, I'm old enough to remember the '84/'85 premierships (not having a dig at you but they're my earliest memories of footy). Burgoyne was the flavour of the month.

Sorry, I've never rated Burgoyne and he's only ever had 1 really good season and even then he only averaged 20 touches - 3 years ago.

Judd won the Brownlow with 30 votes averaging only 21.8 touches a game. Quantity is not everything.

 

[The Donners]

Judd won the Brownlow with 30 votes averaging only 21.8 touches a game. Quantity is not everything.

Yep you're right, Judd has been top 3 in clearances over the past 5 years as well.

I would've said the same thing if he came to Essendon. What he does have is a fantastic disposal.

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Ok, lets match the players up to a similar opposition player (this is for 2010):

Hayes = Sewell (Hayes had better 09', but I rate Sewell and think he can still improve)
NDS > Hodge (This year for sure and I reckon same for next)
Goddard > Mitchell (Goddard better skills + kicks goals)
Montagna = Bourgoyne (Am tempted to give it to Montagna, but unsure what the Burger can bring, so we'll call it even)
Lovett = Bateman (Really havent seen much of either player, Bateman didn't follow through on his good 09' form and Lovett should improve in better side)
Ball < Lewis (Also rate Lewis highly and think he just gets over Ball)

Saints just have the edge IMO.

If you look at it that way, i'd say you're nearly right accept for NDS > Hodge.

NDS had a better year than Hodge this year yes, but Hodge has been plagued with injuries. Over the couse of their careers Hodge has been better than NDS, and if he isn't injured next year that should continue.

 

[HibSam]

If you look at it that way, i'd say you're nearly right accept for NDS > Hodge.

NDS had a better year than Hodge this year yes, but Hodge has been plagued with injuries. Over the couse of their careers Hodge has been better than NDS, and if he isn't injured next year that should continue.

Hodge has had the better career - but were his great years spent playing on ball or across half-back? I can't remember. It seems like Hodge hasn't learnt to shake a tag yet, could be because of injury or maybe he is used to playing the loose quarterback role. Where as Dal Santo finally has, thank god! At best I'd have it: NDS = Hodge, but I wouldn't give Hodge the 'win'.

 

[The Donners]

Hodge has had the better career - but were his great years spent playing on ball or across half-back? I can't remember. It seems like Hodge hasn't learnt to shake a tag yet, could be because of injury or maybe he is used to playing the loose quarterback role. Where as Dal Santo finally has, thank god! At best I'd have it: NDS = Hodge, but I wouldn't give Hodge the 'win'.

Hodge didn't shift to the backline until about round 17 of 2008.

 

[WatWouldCyrilDo]

Hodge has had the better career - but were his great years spent playing on ball or across half-back? I can't remember. It seems like Hodge hasn't learnt to shake a tag yet, could be because of injury or maybe he is used to playing the loose quarterback role. Where as Dal Santo finally has, thank god! At best I'd have it: NDS = Hodge, but I wouldn't give Hodge the 'win'.

When fit hodge normally does pretty well against a tag (unless its Ling).

He has won games off his own boot playing in the midfield - 2007 elimination final was basically all Hodge.

With Montagna coming on this year, and Hayes being Hayes, has NDS been tagged much this year? He'd be behind both of them this year when it comes to getting a tagger.

While NDS has been very good this year, Hodge would have to take the chocolates.

 

[TylerDurden]

In my opinion, a fit and in form Ball would run rings around Lewis. Maybe he'll never get back said form and fitness but I was trying to leave out those kind of variables. I rate Lewis and by no means is this an indictment on his ability.

What has Luke Ball actually achieved in his career?

People view the guy through a different lens coz he was once the #2 draft pick.

Right now he can barely kick 20m and was shopped around by his club as trade bait. Injury or no injury - that's where he is at.

Right now, Lewis has played 100 games, and is a Premiership midfielder at the age of 22.

Luke Ball in his prime was a hard footballer and good at winning contested footy.... and I reckon Lewis has even got him for that..

 

[HibSam]

When fit hodge normally does pretty well against a tag (unless its Ling).

He has won games off his own boot playing in the midfield - 2007 elimination final was basically all Hodge.

With Montagna coming on this year, and Hayes being Hayes, has NDS been tagged much this year? He'd be behind both of them this year when it comes to getting a tagger.

While NDS has been very good this year, Hodge would have to take the chocolates.

Dal Santo certainly hasn't been tagged as much this year compared to the past, but when he does cop it he can now usually deal with it quite well. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

What has Luke Ball actually achieved in his career?

People view the guy through a different lens coz he was once the #2 draft pick.

Right now he can barely kick 20m and was shopped around by his club as trade bait. Injury or no injury - that's where he is at.

Right now, Lewis has played 100 games, and is a Premiership midfielder at the age of 22.

Luke Ball in his prime was a hard footballer and good at winning contested footy.... and I reckon Lewis has even got him for that..

Been St Kilda's captain + AA 2005 (IIRC) + B&F winner. Did all this while playing a very good side. Before he got OP he was a very good player. But right now I'd choose Lewis over him.

 

[Nightwolf]

Dal Santo certainly hasn't been tagged as much this year compared to the past, but when he does cop it he can now usually deal with it quite well. I guess we have to agree to disagree.



Been St Kilda's captain + AA 2005 (IIRC) + B&F winner. Did all this while playing a very good side. Before he got OP he was a very good player. But right now I'd choose Lewis over him.

I could be St.Kildas captain. They give them out like powerades. No honour at all.

 

[TylerDurden]

I see little difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, only Burgoyne's best was 3 years ago. They're both unaccountable, both well skilled... only difference is Lovett is quick. I'd say it's because Lovett is a moron that most people don't rate him at least as high as Burgoyne.

Burgoyne has never and will never be as good as Judd, for starts Judd had explosive pace, Burgoyne has never had explosive pace. The comparisons were comical and yes I remember them, I'm old enough to remember the '84/'85 premierships (not having a dig at you but they're my earliest memories of footy). Burgoyne was the flavour of the month.

Sorry, I've never rated Burgoyne and he's only ever had 1 really good season and even then he only averaged 20 touches - 3 years ago.

The difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, is that Lovett is purely an outside receiver and rarely wins his own footy.

In his prime, Burgoyne was a true hybrid - hence the Judd comparisons. He was as quick, if not quicker than Judd. And Burgoyne's key strength was his contested footy - one match he won an astonishing 18 clearances. For someone to call him a squib earlier on is laughable.

I'd say Port supporters would be able to give a better account of his abilities. Mark Williams referred to him as their BEST player on the list - even now.

In his prime, he was a sensation..

 

[Smyth94]

The difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, is that Lovett is purely an outside receiver and rarely wins his own footy.

In his prime, Burgoyne was a true hybrid - hence the Judd comparisons. He was as quick, if not quicker than Judd. And Burgoyne's key strength was his contested footy - one match he won an astonishing 18 clearances. For someone to call him a squib earlier on is laughable.

I'd say Port supporters would be able to give a better account of his abilities. Mark Williams referred to him as their BEST player on the list - even now.

In his prime, he was a sensation..

Agreed.

Make no mistake about it - Burgoyne at his absolute best was elite - only a step below Judd and Ablett in my view

 

[Vacuous Space]

The difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, is that Lovett is purely an outside receiver and rarely wins his own footy.

I don't think Lovett is purely an outside receiver. I'd say he's just inconsistent with his efforts. There were games this year when he won a lot of ball. Then there were games where he didn't. Then there were games like his final where he didn't win any of his own ball at all. He can be a frustrating player. I hope he benefits from being in our group, but I won't make any predictions to that effect.

Burgoyne is much more consistent player. He's not a huge ball-winner either, but he is the sort who can kill you if he gets 15 touches. He's not as much of a run-and-carry player as his brother, or someone like Lovett, but he's quick and clean with his disposal. Clubs are going to have their hands full trying to figure out who to tag out of Hodge and Burgoyne if they can both get on the field.

I'd say the Hawthorn, St Kilda and Geelong midfields are all very even. Carlton, Footscray, Adelaide, Collingwood, etc aren't far behind if they are at all. Sydney still rely heavily on an underrated midfield unit. Most midfields can beat each other on any given day.

 

[QuietB]

Having read a fair bit of this thread the dogs are not getting the credit they deserve. Geelong is entitled to be named the best, but the dogs must be very close to 2nd. It is not their forward line who is responsible for their success. The Hawks and the Saints on the other hand are very reliant on dominant forwards.

 

[Axle17]

Think your all fogetting about Adelaide crows..
Vince is gonna explode next year. Brownlow for sure!
Id say if all were fit:
Geelong
Hawthorn
Western Bulldogs
Saint Kilda
Adelaide Crows/Collingwood

Then you've West Coast, Blues, Essendon, Port, Lions..

 

[Axle17]

Ok, lets match the players up to a similar opposition player (this is for 2010):

Hayes = Sewell (Hayes had better 09', but I rate Sewell and think he can still improve)
NDS > Hodge (This year for sure and I reckon same for next)
Goddard > Mitchell (Goddard better skills + kicks goals)
Montagna = Bourgoyne (Am tempted to give it to Montagna, but unsure what the Burger can bring, so we'll call it even)
Lovett = Bateman (Really havent seen much of either player, Bateman didn't follow through on his good 09' form and Lovett should improve in better side)
Ball < Lewis (Also rate Lewis highly and think he just gets over Ball)

Hawks 08 side proves otherwise. Finals ring a bell? over 40 in the bag!

 

[The Donners]

What has Luke Ball actually achieved in his career?

All-Australian and St. Kilda Best and Fairest.

People view the guy through a different lens coz he was once the #2 draft pick.

I never use where a player was drafted as evidence of their quality.

Right now he can barely kick 20m and was shopped around by his club as trade bait. Injury or no injury - that's where he is at.

He was asked to be put up for trade bait. He picked up over 20 possessions in the GF from roughly 50% of game time.

Right now, Lewis has played 100 games, and is a Premiership midfielder at the age of 22.

Gary Ablett Snr never played in a premiership.

Luke Ball in his prime was a hard footballer and good at winning contested footy.... and I reckon Lewis has even got him for that..

Lewis is slow, Ball was quick pre-injury, Ball has great vision and deftness, Lewis has neither. Ball may be finished, then again all he may need is a change of club.

 

[The Donners]

The difference between Burgoyne and Lovett, is that Lovett is purely an outside receiver and rarely wins his own footy.

Burgoyne and Lovett hover around for the handball receive almost in the exact same position.

In his prime, Burgoyne was a true hybrid - hence the Judd comparisons.

No he wasn't.

He was as quick, if not quicker than Judd.

That is simply bullshit. Forget about the colour of his skin, Burgoyne has never been quick.

And Burgoyne's key strength was his contested footy - one match he won an astonishing 18 clearances. For someone to call him a squib earlier on is laughable.

Burgoyne has never put his head over the ball. I called him a squib because that's exactly what he is.

I'd say Port supporters would be able to give a better account of his abilities. Mark Williams referred to him as their BEST player on the list - even now.

While he's laughing all the way to the bank with 2 first round draft picks for an injury prone outside midfielder.

In his prime, he was a sensation..

In his prime, 3 years ago, he was grossly overrated - a flash in the pan.

It's my opinion as you have yours, it makes no difference what I think or what you think. I've never rated him (that highly) and I'm not going to start now. When you play at a successful club (which they were) and you look flashy you're going to get your tyres pumped up.

 

[Bee Vee]

McLean would not get a game at Essendon.

You dont......really believe that?


Do you?

 

[The Donners]

He is one dimensional and so only can play midfield. He would not replace Watson, Winderlich, Stanton, Prismall, McVeigh or Welsh (tagger). I'd prefer the speed of Zaharakis and the skill by foot of Houli (has joined a select group of 20 year olds to pick up 30 touches against Geelong over the last 3 years) before McLean as well.

Most people are thinking about McLean from 2006 not 2009 (or 2010 as it will be).

You dont......really believe that?


Do you?

100%

I don't anticipate you to change your mind, you just picked McLean up so now he's one of the best inside midfielders in the league...

 

[BlueGibbs2011]

100%

I don't anticipate you to change your mind, you just picked McLean up so now he's one of the best inside midfielders in the league...

So ignorant. Best Dees midfielder in a weak side with no hype. Think transferring Montagna or Dal Santo to the Dees...they would be invisible!

Mclean at Carlton will be a gun. At the bombers, he'd be a walk up start!

 

[ILY Leonard]

So ignorant. Best Dees midfielder in a weak side with no hype. Think transferring Montagna or Dal Santo to the Dees...they would be invisible!

Mclean at Carlton will be a gun. At the bombers, he'd be a walk up start!

nah the best demons midfielder would be Davey, Sylvia, Green, Bruce or possibly Moloney.

you're right though McLean would get a game at Essendon easily.

 

[ok.crows]

Think your all fogetting about Adelaide crows..
Vince is gonna explode next year. Brownlow for sure!

You could argue that Vince has already "exploded" in the latter part of this year. There is the point however that it is reasonable to hope that Vince can carry on with that great form for the whole of the season next year. I don't know about a Brownlow, but Vince is indeed a very promising aspect of the Crows midfield for next year. Vince won the Crows best and fairest award this year.

However, because you could argue that Vince is already contributing, Dangerfield is the player who I am hoping will bring the big improvement to the Crows midfield performances next year. This year he didn't quite have the fitness base that one would have liked, but with another full pre-season training over the summer he might be able to play midfield full time next year.

Then there is Otten. Next year Davis might be able to take on Otten's current role in the backline, and that could free up Otten for a move into the midfield, possibly playing on the wing.

There is some debate about what to do with Otten, however:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=646392

Finally, next year Petrenko might be ready for stints in the midfield, and if so he could bring a further measure of genuine pace.