List Mgmt. 2014 list discussion - drafts, free agents, trades, retirees, delistings and more

[Partridge]

yuck!
He's better than Brown and that's saying something

Gillies? Ah no, no he isn't.

 

[Partridge]

I think if you put Franklin, Lonergan and Brown in a line and told them to sprint forward 20 metres Brown would be closer to Franklin at the end than Lonergan.

He absolutely would. The first time I saw him play in the VFL I was amazed at how well he covers the ground.

 

[Partridge]

ok then, agree to disagree on that. I think Lonergan made the transition from forward to defender mainly due to his speed from a standing start given he's listed as the same height as a West or Hawkins. He's slowed down over the years but he's still quicker than most players his own size and that includes Brown for me.

The main reason Lonergan made the transition was that he failed as a forward when it mattered most - in a Grand Final. He was perservered with there in Round 1, 2009 but after again doing nothing against quality opposition, Thompson moved him to the backline. Don't forget prior to his kidney injury he was playing easily the best game of his career as a defender. So it wasn't like it was uncharted territory. Amazing transformation he made, but I think his strength in one-on-one contests helped him just as much as speed did - hence his ability to control Cloke in the Grand Final 2 years ago.

My personal view was that he's lost a yard of pace this year, which was noticeable early in the season. Either way the club has to start planning for his replacement. You can't have a 30-year-old key defender with no backup.

 

[you pick one]

Gillies? Ah no, no he isn't.

Dead heat.

 

[Partridge]

go and watch some VFL footy once in a while man, you can get a good sense of a players potential by doing so instead of criticizing current champions and looking at the youth as a means of a quick fix.

Are you addressing me?

I do watch VFL. That's why Brown is one of the players I want given opportunities to. Because he has performed at that level consistently for 2 seasons. I don't want guys like Burbury (as an example) automatically promoted - yet - because they haven't been as consistent. But for guys like Brown and Horlin-Smith (and Schroder), who play well week in week out, surely they're entitled to some opportunities.

So you think promoting youth is a quick fix? Tell you what, leave all the veterans in. All of them. Don't promote any youngsters. After all, what have they done? Let's see how good the team is in a year or so.

 

[Peter Wallis]

The article makes it sound like he will be moved on to promote George Burbury...If thats the case they can have my membership back because that's just insanely stupid. Burbury aint gonna make it and giving up on one of the clubs best for him is a colossal mistake in list management. Please for the love of god can we all just take a minute to realize this is Paul ******* Chapman we are talking about here. You don't move a player of his quality on for a player who's done nothing to earn his spot. What does it say about the culture we want to have if Chapman is shown the door in hope a player will take his spot and flourish, as opposed to making the young kids earn there spot and push chappy or another veteran out through performance. Surely that's a better way to go. Gifting games to the young brigade isn't how you develop a winning team. Its how you become Melbourne.

Spot on! If the club treats a champion of the last decade so shabbily, what sort of message does that send to the rest of the players on the list?

He must stay!

 

[Partridge]

Dead heat.

Yeah the club decided to flick one of them and have kept the other. I wonder why.

 

[Partridge]

The article makes it sound like he will be moved on to promote George Burbury...If thats the case they can have my membership back because that's just insanely stupid. Burbury aint gonna make it and giving up on one of the clubs best for him is a colossal mistake in list management. Please for the love of god can we all just take a minute to realize this is Paul ******* Chapman we are talking about here. You don't move a player of his quality on for a player who's done nothing to earn his spot. What does it say about the culture we want to have if Chapman is shown the door in hope a player will take his spot and flourish, as opposed to making the young kids earn there spot and push chappy or another veteran out through performance. Surely that's a better way to go. Gifting games to the young brigade isn't how you develop a winning team. Its how you become Melbourne.

That's not the issue, there's nothing wrong with ensuring young guys are given opportunities. But the fact is we don't have a young small forward coming close to matching Chapman's output.

Of the guys in the VFL who are performing, how many are small forwards? Very few. Horlin-Smith and Schroder are midfielders. West is a ruckman. Brown is a key defender. Walker and Kersten are key forwards. You could maybe say Smedts and Murdoch play up forward, but they're already on the list and they'll be moving into the midfield as they develop.

Cannot see how Burbury for Chapman is any kind of good move. Unless Chapman is a lot more stubborn and is demanding more than 1 year (and with that snake oil salesman in Pickering as his pimp, err......manager, that could be the case).

 

[THE CAT WRANGLER]

Spot on! If the club treats a champion of the last decade so shabbily, what sort of message does that send to the rest of the players on the list?

He must stay!

What did Bulldogs do with Cross ?

We need to make the correct call and not accept mediocracy we have to resolute and aggressive if four pursuit of further success.

2 draft picks + Burbury won't get us the premiership we will need to move on 6 = 4 picks + 2 upgrades

Gone: west,Cowan,j Hunt,brown,Corey & one of Pods or Chapman

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Spot on! If the club treats a champion of the last decade so shabbily, what sort of message does that send to the rest of the players on the list?

He must stay!

Joel Corey is arguably just as decorated as Paul Chapman (same premierships, same AAs, Corey has one more B&F, Chapman has a NS) and no-one seems too concerned about him getting the nudge. What if he wanted to go on as well (we don't know and I suspect we never will, with Joel Corey)?

Chapman should (and my fingers are crossed he will) stay, because more than just being a best 22 player, he's still an AA-calibre player when he's fit (which he has been for the vast majority of the past four years). If he was playing at the level Corey, J.Hunt and (in my opinion) Podsiadly currently are, both he and the club would have to give retirement some very strong consideration.

In short, he should get another year because he's likely to earn his keep and because we should still be aiming for the top four in 2014.

 

[Partridge]

This gives space to the juniors who will be looking to play more games - GHS, Murdoch, Smedts, Schroeder, Kersten, Walker, Brown. These guys aren't going to play 23 games next year. They should be looking at playing 10-12 at best (not taking injuries into account). I'm saying this on the assumption that Guthrie, T Hunt and Blicavs are already in our best 22.

Based on the finals series there is no way Blicavs is in our best 22. Too many are blinded by the story to actually watch him and see how good he really is.

 

[Partridge]

I do rate Guthrie and he should have every right to demand a spot in the back 6 every week on current form. If his form drops however, which chances are it will for some period within the next 2 years, I don't think Scotty would hesitate to give him a spell in the two's to get some form back and give a Thurlow type a game.

I bet it won't. He's going to be a mainstay for the next 10 years.

He'd be in my first 6 picked now, not last 6. And all he needed was a little opportunity. Funny that.

 

[catempire]

I think the call made on Chapman will say something about our goals for 2014.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Cannot see how Burbury for Chapman is any kind of good move. Unless Chapman is a lot more stubborn and is demanding more than 1 year (and with that snake oil salesman in Pickering as his pimp, err......manager, that could be the case).

I just can't see it. I can't imagine Chapman being that unrealistic. If he was, I reckon Gullan or someone would have been given that leak by now, because currently Geelong looks heartless and stupid, whereas if it was revealed that - again - the 1/2 year thing was the point of contention, I think the Cats would get a lot more support. You put the ball firmly back in Chapman's court, as the questions would be asked in the media about why he needs the additional security if his body really is fine.

Of course, it's all speculation at the moment. I just hope they can come to an agreement. I like George Burbury, but I think the balance of probabilities suggests that we'll get more out of Paul Chapman even in just one more year than we will out of Burbury until he finishes in the AFL.

 

[you pick one]

Yeah the club decided to flick one of them and have kept the other. I wonder why.

So do I, done SFA when gifted games against the minnows and kept getting dropped because he simply doesn't have what it takes,in the end they gave up picking him and would require a complete mental turn around for him to come back into contention.Has some talent yes,intestinal fortitude?

 

[smackdog]

Based on the finals series there is no way Blicavs is in our best 22. Too many are blinded by the story to actually watch him and see how good he really is.

Blicavs is in our best 22 because he is better all round than West, Simpson and HMac were injured and Vardy can't ruck out a full game. Next year maybe someone will pass him but not at the moment.

 

[Peter Wallis]

What did Bulldogs do with Cross ?

We need to make the correct call and not accept mediocracy we have to resolute and aggressive if four pursuit of further success.

2 draft picks + Burbury won't get us the premiership we will need to move on 6 = 4 picks + 2 upgrades

Gone: west,Cowan,j Hunt,brown,Corey & one of Pods or Chapman

With all due respect to Cross, he is not in the same class as Chapman in playing terms. He has struggled to get into an average Bulldogs side all season & there are clearly plenty of young midfielders that are ahead of him now.

Chapman on the other hand is still a top player who still, on form, deserves to be in a very good Geelong team when fit. I love Daniel Cross but you can't compare the 2 as players imo.

 

[Pivo]

The article makes it sound like he will be moved on to promote George Burbury...

I read the article and it is a perplexing one.

As I read it, McNicol has either plucked Burbury's name out of a hat full of rookie names and run with it or there is something to it.

From the outside looking in I would have thought Blicavs and Walker were ahead of Burbury with regards to elevation.

Even if Blicavs has been convinced to stay on the rookie list wouldn't Walker still be first cab off the rank based on the fact that he came into the senior side for a final and was one of the few guys to play well in the VFL Grand Final?

Also, Walker provides some additional cover for Hawkins (dodgy back), Podsiadly (getting older) Vardy and Kersten (both still learning the ropes).

Burbury just fights it out with Smedts, Varcoe, Murdoch and any other midsized young player that'll be sat on the hff or given short stints in the middle in 2014.

Odd.

 

[smackdog]

I bet it won't. He's going to be a mainstay for the next 10 years.

He'd be in my first 6 picked now, not last 6. And all he needed was a little opportunity. Funny that.

First 6? That's jumping the gun a bit on the back of a good second half of the year for a 21 year old. Overall he'll be a mainstay and the way he's performing he's going to be a jet, but at the moment, if he had 5 bad games in a row he should and would be dropped. Enright, for example, unless injured, doesn't get omitted regardless of form. There's a distinction there.

 

[catempire]

Based on the finals series there is no way Blicavs is in our best 22. Too many are blinded by the story to actually watch him and see how good he really is.

In 2014 I expect to see Blicavs in a variety of roles - relieving ruckman for Simpson/HMac, on a wing and pinch-hitting forward and back. Aside from rucking, we haven't seen too much of him in the other roles. His improvement has been steep so far and if he continues that way he won't play much VFL football from here on in (played 1 VFL game in 2013 IIRC). Call that "not in our best 22" if it makes you feel any better. I suppose the match committee must be "blinded by the story" if he plays another 22 AFL games in 2014?

 

[rooie]

In 2014 I expect to see Blicavs in a variety of roles - relieving ruckman for Simpson/HMac, on a wing and pinch-hitting forward and back. Aside from rucking, we haven't seen too much of him in the other roles. His improvement has been steep so far and if he continues that way he won't play much VFL football from here on in (played 1 VFL game in 2013 IIRC). Call that "not in our best 22" if it makes you feel any better. I suppose the match committee must be "blinded by the story" if he plays another 22 AFL games in 2014?

i think he has played so much due to continuing injuries to big men as opposed to his amazing football ability.

to be honest, if vardy keeps improving, and we have a fit simpson, i can't get blitz into our side. he doesn't really fit any role other than relieving ruckman who can run hard to fill the hole or provide a target.

i would play vardy hawk and kersten in the forward line with vardy swaping out to ruck and simpson dropping back to the square.

unless they put blitz in the VFL and teach him to be a CHB i am not sure how he gets a game if everyone of our best 22 is fit.

so if i was to guess what partridge was getting at i would say its that if our list if 100% fit, blitz isn't best 22. if a few key big men are out, in him comes.

 

[smackdog]

In 2014 I expect to see Blicavs in a variety of roles - relieving ruckman for Simpson/HMac, on a wing and pinch-hitting forward and back. Aside from rucking, we haven't seen too much of him in the other roles. His improvement has been steep so far and if he continues that way he won't play much VFL football from here on in (played 1 VFL game in 2013 IIRC). Call that "not in our best 22" if it makes you feel any better. I suppose the match committee must be "blinded by the story" if he plays another 22 AFL games in 2014?

I think H Mac and Dawson are competing for the no. 1 ruck mantle at Geelong, and Vardy and Blicavs are fighting for no. 2 ruck/forward/utility. Although I wouldn't be too disappointed to see all 4 running around in a game (H Mac or Dawson would have to show some forward marking prowess).

 

[year of the cat]

Based on the finals series there is no way Blicavs is in our best 22. Too many are blinded by the story to actually watch him and see how good he really is.

Whilst it can be fraught with danger attempting to predict a players' potential (I remember a guy called Stephen Reynoldson who was going to be the next Royce Hart but only ended up being a serviceable player), I think we can assume that Blicavs, in our development program, will flourish in the years ahead. I'm just not sure where his best position lies. If we can sort out our rucks maybe he could be developed into a tall defender? Though he was left wanting on Friday night when needed to spoil a couple of contests that Hale was involved in. Still, he has shown so much improvement over one season anything is possible with him.

Personally, Partridge, I reckon he will be a lock next year. He just needs to add a bit more size, improve his contested marking and have a bit more awareness and improve his decision making when being tackled to really be a tough match up for opposing teams.

 

[catempire]

i think he has played so much due to continuing injuries to big men as opposed to his amazing football ability.

to be honest, if vardy keeps improving, and we have a fit simpson, i can't get blitz into our side. he doesn't really fit any role other than relieving ruckman who can run hard to fill the hole or provide a target.

i would play vardy hawk and kersten in the forward line with vardy swaping out to ruck and simpson dropping back to the square.

unless they put blitz in the VFL and teach him to be a CHB i am not sure how he gets a game if everyone of our best 22 is fit.

so if i was to guess what partridge was getting at i would say its that if our list if 100% fit, blitz isn't best 22. if a few key big men are out, in him comes.

I don't think anyone would say he has "amazing football ability". Many players who end up playing a lot of AFL games don't.

I expect a lot of people will still hold doubts as you appear to. People said similar things all this year, expecting West to push him out.

I think H Mac and Dawson are competing for the no. 1 ruck mantle at Geelong, and Vardy and Blicavs are fighting for no. 2 ruck/forward/utility. Although I wouldn't be too disappointed to see all 4 running around in a game (H Mac or Dawson would have to show some forward marking prowess).

People seem to see Blicavs only through the prism of a "tall". I really doubt that Blicavs will be competing with those players for a spot in the side in 2014. I think it's more likely he is competing with fringe midfielders and flankers.

 

[smackdog]

needs to learn how to kick though (Blicavs), it's great to be an exceptional running freak but it's another thing to actually play football and mark or kick when needed and Blicavs struggles to take the game on far too often because of his lack of football skills.

Got shown up in most of the big games this year, teams with good structures in place but the reduction of the interchange rotations next year will help his game but certainly needs to spend all summer learning the finer aspects of the game.

Couldn't disagree more. Blicavs hands are exceptional for a man of his size and experience, and his run and take on the contest is something you rarely see in a 195cm+ player. He seems to actually try and create with confidence, which so many ruckman do not do. I would compare him (and obviously not to the same level) to a Natinui, rather than a tap ruckman like a Jolly or a Sandilands who always seem exhausted and want to dish it off. He has enormous potential and I've heard his attitude is very similar to H Taylor - just listens, absorbs everything, first to arrive last to leave kind of guy. Plenty of promise.