List Mgmt. 2014: The List

[PumpyChowdown]

As much as I'd love to see JC in the Navy Blue, we would have to pay way overs to get him, such would be the interest and competition to get him.

One individual player doesn't win a premiership and I'd hate to see us give up all our draft picks and a very good player. Would totally undermine our long term good.

If we could get him for unders though...bring it on!

 

[Azul]

Henderson is our second best tall backman.

Let's not forget, he's only playing out of position as a forward because

1. There's genuine anxiety about what to do when Waite retires.
2. We have a surplus of 190cm+ players we can rotate through defense: White, Bootsma, Rowe, Walker, Jamison, Watson.

To suggest he's no good ignores that the coach deliberately is forcing him to play a role.

 

[marleyblue]

So I guess I'll touch on what I said earlier, and that is Henderson

Carlton people love Henderson, though I'm skeptical of his overall ability going forward. We are too forgiving at Carlton. We were laughed at this year for over rating our list, and imo its evident in how we treat Henderson

First we need to be clear on one thing, is he a forward, back, or swingmen? If hes a swingmen, then get the idea of him big a big KPF out of your head. The best we'll get of him is a roving high half forward that can play defence. If we want a beast (Cloke, Tippett, Hawkins, Walker etc) then we need to plant him in the forward line. We cant compromise on him by every one in five weeks asking him to play defence for the next 5 years while we wait on another defender. We did it with Waite and wasted his best years as a forward

So if we plant Henderson forward and commit him there, we then need to ask, who would serve us better? Camera as a forward, or Henderson as a forward? Quite frankly anyone who says Henderson has rocks in their brain. Cameron has shown an infinite more in both consistent form and potential.

So if we were to sell Henderson to GWS as the answer to their backline woes, what else do we need to give? Our first pick is a given, but what more? I'd be happy to throw either of Garlett, Watson, Touhy, or let them throw up a fringe players name they think can help

I wouldnt be happy trading Yarren or Gibbs. Theyre essential cogs to our team balance and potential Carlton flag side

Cameron replacing Henderson as our forward, is a no brainer, plus if we can get the deal done by adding fringe players who dont effect best 18, well where do I sign?

I understand the logic - Cameron better than Henderson, but the cost is too great. We have a dearth of quality talls - our first pick in the draft is likely to be used on a tall (either directly or via trade). Sending Henderson and our first is essentially trading 2 talls for Cameron (add Watson as suggested and it's three).

 

[JuddsABlue]

You're replacing one key position player with another and doesn't address our shortage.

That still leaves us with just Levi and Cameron forward if Waite retires. Sorry but that's still not a premiership winning forward line.

We dont have a shortage of players, we have a shortage of talent

IMO, we are replacing an average KPP with a much better KPP

Do we have enough room in the forward line of

Potentially Cameron
Henderson
Casbolt
Waite
Menzel
Garlett

Thats 4 talls, 2 crumbers. Add in Yarren if he plays forward, Kruezer if he plays second ruck/forward.

I dont think there is a shortfall of men there, only a shortfall in talent

If we trade out mids/picks for Cameron, one or two of those players are gone. Waite will retire adter 2016~, Casbolt probably doesnt get a game with a fit Kruezer in the side.

I think theres a lot in Casbolt, he marks really well and his kicking is improving overnight. I think hes a good 2nd forward option to Cameron, with Yarren, Menzel and Garlett as crumbers/small forwads. Waite will play his role in high half forward to see our his career.

I just dont envision a forward line of Henderson, Casbolt and Cameron long term. And I think Casbolt can offer a great deal, so a Cameron/Casbolt duo can be really something to build a team around I think, along with Menzel.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Uh, it's only a deal if GWS somehow signs that paper napkin too.

I'd rather we keep Henderson. Provides leadership and was our best player second half of last season. A dodgy start to this year does not a career make. Let's avoid the reactionist approach.

I dont think its rectional

I think its illogical to pin our hopes based on half a season of Henderson as a forward. Hes played more bad games than good games as a forward, why do we assume hes the answer? Cameron is literally running rings around quality defences on his own up there in GWS. Something Henderson straight up and down isnt capable of.

Hes a considerably better forward, and I think we over rate what Henderson can do for us long term

 

[Azul]

Could get Walker, stick him forward & let him fly for mark of the year all game.

Walker is a 2-3 year prospect. They have enough of those in Shaw, Hunt, Addison etc.

 

[JuddsABlue]

I understand the logic - Cameron better than Henderson, but the cost is too great. We have a dearth of quality talls - our first pick in the draft is likely to be used on a tall (either directly or via trade). Sending Henderson and our first is essentially trading 2 talls for Cameron (add Watson as suggested and it's three).

Cameron, imo, is worth it. Hes much more established than people give him credit for. Hes proven what he can do operating as a lone soldier, hes done it in a very short period of time. Hes output is far greater than any tall we have, and a quality tall forward is worth a lot more than 3 medium quality talls.

We need a spearhead, a game breaker, not 3 guys that might make it. There are limited spots on a footy ground, a spreading the wealth over 3 talls isnt the way to go. It goes against what feels natural, but putting our eggs in one/two max quality forwards is better

Watson isnt even getting a game, there is a spot for him there to take but he doesnt have the ability

 

[Malifice]

Regardless of the risk of the PSD in 2015 I can't see them letting the hottest KP propect in the game go for picks 6-10 and 24-28. They will demand very high draft picks (to on-trade for experienced players) or a pick and a player and the competition form rival clubs would be fierce.

He nominates us and GWS wont really have an option. Deal with us or he stays and then leaves for squat the next year.

Im a little blown away that people already forgotten the Heath Shaw for Taylor Adams swap last year.

Or how the Pies upgraded pick 11 to pick 6 for SFA.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[BM123]

I think we're all forgetting the vital point here .... who did he support as a kid?!

Collingwood.

I wouldn't be surprised if Collingwood offered Cloke or Beams plus their first pick for for him

 

[Just Kreuzing]

We can get Cameron if he does in fact want to come home and we are aggressive enough.

Just got to package up the right players to accompany our first round pick and offer a 9 year term....

I would be happy to let go any of the following players with our first rounder to get the deal done - Walker, Lucas, Robinson, Watson, Giles, Bootsma, McInnes, Bell, Garlett, Thomas or Tuohy.

The rest of our players are either untouchable or don't offer much in terms of trade value.

No doubt GWS will want overs but that may mean they risk losing him for bugger all....

 

[Kensa Carter]

Hes a considerably better forward, and I think we over rate what Henderson can do for us long term

If it's a one-for-one swap, I'd agree.

But as mentioned previously, GWS would likely want a Judd-like deal. First round + second round and Menzel/Hendo for Cameron and third.

Cameron replacing Henderson as our forward, is a no brainer, plus if we can get the deal done by adding fringe players who dont effect best 18, well where do I sign?

Your suggestion that we pad Hendo with list cloggers not in Carlton's best 18 to get Cameron is extremely unattractive to GWS. You do realise they have to sign off too?

 

[Azul]

We dont have a shortage of players, we have a shortage of talent

IMO, we are replacing an average KPP with a much better KPP

Do we have enough room in the forward line of

Potentially Cameron
Henderson
Casbolt
Waite
Menzel
Garlett

I think you're being optimistic on Waite. If we got Cameron, I'm pretty sure he'd be asked to retire - he's 31 now and getting a game because we have no one better. At 32 he won't be the shadow of himself as a 28yo.

Yes we do have a shortage of talent but how many of the talls we have will be there in 2017? Jamison and Walker will be 30. Henderson is the only one at age 27 you'd confidently say would be in his prime, still at Carlton and pushing for AA selection.

 

[Buckley2Menzel]

Apart from Murphy, Simpson, Menzel, Buckley, Yarran and Jamison everyone on our list can be thrown at GWS if it means getting Cameron. You'd hate to lose Gibba, Henderson, Thomas, Doc, Dre, Waite, Curnow, Kruez, Walker, Cripps, Judd etc. but if Cameron came our way for them, you wouldn't say no. At the risk of sounding blasphemous, I'd be willing to give up Henderson, Gibbs and a pick (preferably not our first) to get young Jeremy in the navy blue.

 

[marleyblue]

He nominates us and GWS wont really have an option. Deal with us or he stays and then leaves for squat the next year.

Im a little blown away that people already forgotten the Heath Shaw for Taylor Adams swap last year.

Or how the Pies upgraded pick 11 to pick 6 for SFA.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Different situation - Taylor Adams was out of contract, the 6th or 7th best midfielder and struggling to get consistent gametime. Adams value was rated as a mid- first round pick, he was expendable and the trade was for a 27 year old experienced premiership player that provides leadership and a hardened body to help the kids.

Cameron's value is MUCH higher and the bidding war would be more intense. Yes he could nominate Carlton but like the Judd deal, you still need to satisfy the club.

GWS would be mad to let their marque number 1 key position player leave contracted for mid 1st and 2nd round picks. If they let that situation occur, how many more players will threathen to walk out?

 

[HARKER]

He nominates us and GWS wont really have an option. Deal with us or he stays and then leaves for squat the next year.
Im a little blown away that people already forgotten the Heath Shaw for Taylor Adams swap last year.
Or how the Pies upgraded pick 11 to pick 6 for SFA.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Have you gone all New-Age Malifice
There may well be a strong will and there would certainly be a way ...................... question is, "Would it be worth it"?

There's never a perfect season and I know we're very far away from it right now but it's arguable that we've been without our best ruck-man in Kreuzer and our 2 best mids in Judd and Carrazzo for this year, to date.
Without an effective clearance set-up your forward line can be somewhat ineffective and no full forward on his own will save you.

We need more mids and need them quickly.
Unfortunately the outside gut run we hoped from Lucas is all but a pipe-dream and we'll need more one touch inside players also, even if Cripps does come on next year.

Given that even the best full forwards kick 60 odd goals a year, most teams have to manufacture more goals from their mids.
Murphy, Gibbs and even McLean aren't giving us goals this year. That would have to be a real concern.

None of us know what may eventuate but I'd sooner work on plugging a few holes rather than hoping that one player will fix the lot.

 

[FlowersByIrene]

I'd expect them to want our first + Curnow at an absolute minimum

Curnow is a jet though

Our first and Garlett or Robinson or both?
That being said they need to cut their list so a 2 for 1 deal is unlikely

 

[Malifice]

Different situation - Taylor Adams was out of contract, the 6th or 7th best midfielder and struggling to get consistent gametime. Adams value was rated as a mid- first round pick, he was expendable and the trade was for a 27 year old experienced premiership player that provides leadership and a hardened body to help the kids.

Heath Shaw provides leadership?

Cameron's value is MUCH higher and the bidding war would be more intense. Yes he could nominate Carlton but like the Judd deal, you still need to satisfy the club.

Agree. Like I said, I'd happily see if we couldnt do a deal (like what Collingwood pulled off last year) to upgrade our 1st round pick by trading it and a player to another club (below us on the ladder) for their 1st rounder.

Example: as the ladder stands at the moment, we have pick 7. The Saints have pick 3.

As a complete hypothetical, would the Saints take (say) Bell and 7 for pick 3? We'd be overpaying IMO (Bell is worth more than an upgrade of 4 spots on the draft table, but you get my jist).

Would (in your opinion) Picks 3 and 25 get it done (for Cameron and 38)? Assuming he nominates us of course (so we couldnt be trumped by Melbourne or Brisbane), and with the threat of leaving for nothing next year hanging over GWS's head.

We'd lose Bell, 3 and 25 for Cameron and 38. Very 'Judd like' trade in value (where we arguably paid too much).

Proposed trade is a hypothetical only.

GWS would be mad to let their marque number 1 key position player leave contracted for mid 1st and 2nd round picks. If they let that situation occur, how many more players will threathen to walk out?

If the club played hardball and forced him to go somewhere he didnt want to go, or (worse yet) force him to hang around when he didnt want to be there, I reckon that would lead to far more players walking out than taking a slight hit to trade him to where he wanted to go ever would.

 

[Chism]

Make it happen.

Players like JC hardly ever hit the market and we should be throwing everything we can at GWS to get him bar our untouchables which have already been mentioned.

 

[mickelboy182]

Curnow is a jet though

Our first and Garlett or Robinson or both?
That being said they need to cut their list so a 2 for 1 deal is unlikely

Not sure if serious...

This guy is a 21 year old GUN key forward... Think more Judd deal rather than fringe players and pick 8-12

 

[Jatz]

Not sure if serious...

This guy is a 21 year old GUN key forward... Think more Judd deal rather than fringe players and pick 8-12

So much this. The club wouldn't even bother offering that. The Giants would just laugh and move onto the next club.

 

[BM123]

No more saviors please.....

We need another KPD, another KPF and more midfield depth etc

Let's get a balanced list going instead of relying on one messiah after another.



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[Buckley2Menzel]

Heath Shaw provides leadership?





Agree. Like I said, I'd happily see if we couldnt do a deal (like what Collingwood pulled off last year) to upgrade our 1st round pick by trading it and a player to another club (below us on the ladder) for their 1st rounder.

Example: as the ladder stands at the moment, we have pick 7. The Saints have pick 3.

As a complete hypothetical, would the Saints take (say) Bell and 7 for pick 3? We'd be overpaying IMO (Bell is worth more than an upgrade of 4 spots on the draft table, but you get my jist).

Would (in your opinion) Picks 3 and 25 get it done (for Cameron and 38)? Assuming he nominates us of course (so we couldnt be trumped by Melbourne or Brisbane), and with the threat of leaving for nothing next year hanging over GWS's head.

We'd lose Bell, 3 and 25 for Cameron and 38. Very 'Judd like' trade in value (where we arguably paid too much).

Proposed trade is a hypothetical only.



If the club played hardball and forced him to go somewhere he didnt want to go, or (worse yet) force him to hang around when he didnt want to be there, I reckon that would lead to far more players walking out than taking a slight hit to trade him to where he wanted to go ever would.

So pick #3 and an upgrade of 13 picks to the second round for Cameron - a 21y.o KPP who you could argue is the best forward in the comp and has proven a lot in his short career, and pick 38? You're dreaming. This kid could be the best forward of the next 10 years. It's going to take more than picks (something that GWS have had plenty of) to get him.

 

[HARKER]

No more saviors please.....

We need another KPD, another KPF and more midfield depth etc

Let's get a balanced list going instead of relying on one messiah after another.

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[etsal1]

Considering they wanted Gibbs or Kreuzer + first pick for pick 1 last year. I'd expect they'd want more for Cameron given he is proven quality.

 

[Buckley2Menzel]

If we want this kid bad enough, we have to be prepared for them wanting something like Gibbs, Henderson and a pick.

If we do that trade, keep our first pick, and can land Brayshaw, I would do it.