If you need 2 of Mitchell, Shiels, JOM at every centre bounce, you are struggling for depth.
Geelong have Dangerfield and Selwood and they are struggling for depth.
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2017 Best midfield and depth
- Thread starter Obeanie1
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Geelong have Dangerfield and Selwood and they are struggling for depth.
- Jul 13, 2015
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Im sure there will be times it is Roughie, Hodge and Burgoyne. My point was more that those 3 take the bulk of it.
In the same way that as deep as the Swans go, you are still going to see Kennedy, Jack and Hannebury in the middle most of the time. Because that is their job.
In the 2015 GF Breust spent more time in the middle in the first quarter than anyone. As much as we have a core midfield group, we dont rely on only a couple - in the way Geelong does.
- Jul 16, 2015
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Pure pace.You look through that list and you can understand why the Swans wouldn't match the hawks offer for Mitchell.Then they traded up to get Florent.Smart in.my opinion.However match them on the inside and Scully,Shiel,Williams,Smith, and Wilson get them.on the outside.
That is true, but just looking at the names on the page and the accolades that those players have garnered individually, you can see how I made that assumption
Saints midfield will be a major problem for the next couple of years, especially compared to some other teams around our position. While we managed to plug up some depth issues with our trades last year, we lack genuine talent in our midfield. Jack Steven is our best player, but even then he is barely an elite midfielder and has never been All-Australian. Furthermore, our talented youth such as Acres and Billings have yet to really step up to the next level to be considered good AFL players. This worries me as potential does not always convert into on-field performance. What I'm trying to say is, the saints really need to target an elite midfielder in the trade period this year in order to even challenge for a position in finals
Agree with this. Really need an elite midfielder. Hard to get and maybe very expensive. Saints did the right thing by having two first rounders to help pry one loose.
Very expensive won't bother us, we'll have cap space up the wazoo and 3 first rounders that we can trade if need be.
- Mar 18, 2013
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Jack Steven is unequivocally "elite"
Not many players make AA from non-finalist sides
Not many players make AA from non-finalist sides
Pretty sure we challenged for a position in the finals last season, despite having a very shallow midfield that was likely to be significantly worse than the one we'll have this year, all things being equal, so that doesn't necessarily make a heap of sense to me.
More depth does not equal improved on field performance, and other teams are also improving. As I mentioned in my original post, we may have improved our list this offseason, but if billings, acres and the like don't improve dramatically this year, I fail to see how our midfield becomes able to hold its own against the best
- Mar 18, 2013
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Improved depth means more competition for spots means perform or be dropped; means more rotation thru midfield means fresher bodies
Depth definitely means improved on field performance
And we held our own against Geelong, Sydney for a half, GWS, Hawthorn, beat the Dogs
It "held its own" last year, before this year's additions. Not sure where you're coming from
Does it need to keep improving? Yes
But it's not dire like you're making out
Fwiw, champion data rates our midfield 6th best in the comp for 2017
Depth can increase competition for places and drive individual performance. The ideal competition is among ascending players, as they can all improve.
Acres could still come good in the midfield. Billings looks like a good HFF.
- Aug 8, 2009
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Yeah he can be really good but if a team sits a player on him he is cooked. I guess that is where by adding more to our mids this year in Prestia/Caddy and the internal improvement of Vlaustin, Corey Ellis, Menadue, Markov ect, it means Ellis goes back down the order a bit more. It's important to remember he is only 23.
I think our mids will be interesting to watch this year and certainly look a lot stronger than last year:
First Tier - Martin, Cotchin, Prestia, Caddy has some nice fire power to it. I am pretty confident on what Prestia will deliver, but I am keen to see what Caddy can bring to the table in a more permanent midfield role. I saw him play some pretty good games at Geelong and I think he has talent to be a very good AFL mid, but worst case he pushes out a guy like Townsend who is a spud.
Then we have the next tier of predominantly first and second round picks in their late teens/early twenties. Vlaustin I think he has been wasted down back. He went from an attacking player with flair to a solid back pocket. Really happy to see him in the middle particularly given his size.
McIntosh, Corey Ellis, Menadue, Brandon Ellis, Oleg Markov all have talent and have in most cases shown it at AFL level, we just need one or two of them to take the next step to really have a well rounded midfield.
Then we have solid types in Edwards and Miles who are great depth mids. I would throw Conca in that box too as when he plays consistently he genuinely shows some good form, but I doubt his hammies will ever be right.
Those matches you brought up were played in far more than just the midfield. I am now comfortable with the state of our forward line, and our backline is coming together nicely.
But regardless, depth again, does not necessarily mean improved on field performance. Competition for spots is all well and good, but does that instantly mean that all players will become better? And if so please show it to me because I would love to be proven wrong And that is not even including the possibility of injuries to key players.
Player growth is not linear, and again, other teams will keep improving just as we do. I just think that in order for us to reach the next level we need a star in our midfield
- Mar 18, 2013
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If you don't perform you get dropped
That is a huge driver of performance
GWS for example
It's human nature
That is a huge driver of performance
GWS for example
It's human nature
And I always attributed GWS impressive midfield with draft concessions and smart mature age selections.
Depth does not create stars, smart drafting, trading and development do. do.
Star mids win games of footy.
An accumulation of average players will barely make a ripple.
You're better equipped to know than me if a couple can elevate their games to A-grade status.
- Mar 18, 2013
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Since when did the concept of competition for spots leading to improved performance become some mysterious phenomenon?
No-one says it's not preferable, or doesn't help, but nearly all premiership teams have competition standouts deliveing the holy grail.
You might make the eight with an ordinary midfield, like Richmond who couldn't win a final, but flags are a different story.
If you're merely referring to making the eight, which ordinary teams do as nearly half the competition makes the eight, then you may have a point.
But it's star mids that elevate performance.
Making the eight is no big deal if you're not on the right j-curve.
Will Acres, Steven, Ross, Newnes, Freeman, Steele, Dunstan, Billings form the nucleus of a premiership midfield ?
I don't see the potential star power. That said, a couple of drafts and trade periods can change that. It's a solid group being assembled.
- Mar 18, 2013
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Well said, agree with that
Acres, Billings, Steele will become A graders imo
Not counting on Freeman to make it
Ross will be a handy b grader, at worst
Gresham another who should become A grade
All speculation at this stage I know but imo there's enough talent on the list already, with the exception of a line breaking, quick mid with a penetrating kick
Freeman was speculated on for this reason it seems to me
Webster, Savage and McKenzie (though his kicking no where near the first 2) could become this type. Newnes is no mug as an outside mid with good kicking
Otherwise, draft and trade in that type
Acres, Billings, Steele will become A graders imo
Not counting on Freeman to make it
Ross will be a handy b grader, at worst
Gresham another who should become A grade
All speculation at this stage I know but imo there's enough talent on the list already, with the exception of a line breaking, quick mid with a penetrating kick
Freeman was speculated on for this reason it seems to me
Webster, Savage and McKenzie (though his kicking no where near the first 2) could become this type. Newnes is no mug as an outside mid with good kicking
Otherwise, draft and trade in that type
Theres a compelling argument sydneys is better than GWS
Janus
Advocatus Diaboli
- Sep 9, 2007
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This is the metric I use to rank midfields. Based on regular season stats (no finals):
This accounts for hitouts, clearances and inside 50 numbers, because just focusing on inside 50 numbers skews it in favour of sides that get a lot of repeat inside 50 entries through their forward defensive structure, which is nothing to do with the midfield itself and more to do with game plan. A side that wins more hitouts but generates less clearances has, by any metric, a poorer performing midfield than one that wins the same amount of clearances from fewer hitouts.
That's why Melbourne is so low (1053 hitouts won for only 844 clearances won and 1183 inside 50s is pretty bad) and Port Adelaide is so high (669 hitouts won for 862 clearances and 1208 inside 50s). It's all about efficiency of performance. I mean, compare the defensive side of the ball - Melbourne only lost 791 hitouts but pretty much every single time they gave away a clearance when it happened (782). Conversely, Port Adelaide gave up a league high 1134 hitouts to their opponents, but only 880 of them ended up as clearances.
Fremantle was no surprise - their entire setup is based around the dominance of Sandilands and Fyfe. So when they went missing, their performance suffered.
Oh, and Collingwood has the best midfield in the competition from a pure numbers standpoint. It's seriously not even close with how efficient they are. Too bad the rest of the side isn't the same, but it's why I have them in my eight for this year. It's also why I think Geelong is going to fade - those hitout and clearance numbers are going to drop considerably with the rule changes. Less free kicks = less clearances. That's not an opinion, it's just as fact.
If you wanna know the formulas used - Attack and Defence Ratio were Inside 50/(Inside 50/(Clearance/Hitouts)). This was to work out what inside 50s were actually generated from the midfield and not through transition from defence (which is also more to do with game plan). Midfield Efficiency is a multiplication of Attack and Defence Ratio. And Midfield Rating is Inside 50 Attack/Inside 50 Defence x Midfield Efficiency.
This accounts for hitouts, clearances and inside 50 numbers, because just focusing on inside 50 numbers skews it in favour of sides that get a lot of repeat inside 50 entries through their forward defensive structure, which is nothing to do with the midfield itself and more to do with game plan. A side that wins more hitouts but generates less clearances has, by any metric, a poorer performing midfield than one that wins the same amount of clearances from fewer hitouts.
That's why Melbourne is so low (1053 hitouts won for only 844 clearances won and 1183 inside 50s is pretty bad) and Port Adelaide is so high (669 hitouts won for 862 clearances and 1208 inside 50s). It's all about efficiency of performance. I mean, compare the defensive side of the ball - Melbourne only lost 791 hitouts but pretty much every single time they gave away a clearance when it happened (782). Conversely, Port Adelaide gave up a league high 1134 hitouts to their opponents, but only 880 of them ended up as clearances.
Fremantle was no surprise - their entire setup is based around the dominance of Sandilands and Fyfe. So when they went missing, their performance suffered.
Oh, and Collingwood has the best midfield in the competition from a pure numbers standpoint. It's seriously not even close with how efficient they are. Too bad the rest of the side isn't the same, but it's why I have them in my eight for this year. It's also why I think Geelong is going to fade - those hitout and clearance numbers are going to drop considerably with the rule changes. Less free kicks = less clearances. That's not an opinion, it's just as fact.
If you wanna know the formulas used - Attack and Defence Ratio were Inside 50/(Inside 50/(Clearance/Hitouts)). This was to work out what inside 50s were actually generated from the midfield and not through transition from defence (which is also more to do with game plan). Midfield Efficiency is a multiplication of Attack and Defence Ratio. And Midfield Rating is Inside 50 Attack/Inside 50 Defence x Midfield Efficiency.
- Nov 23, 2016
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They beat us in Round 3 last year with a combination of Tippett and brilliant outside defence IMO. We were within a bees dick of running them ragged but they scrambled and covered when they had to brilliantly.
Last two games not so much.
Next year who knows.
Watson
