Autopsy 2018 JLT Series - Game 2: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[Stewart66]

Log on and see posters saying Hickey AND MARSHALL should be playing before Longer.
Log off immediately.

Pretty tiresome subject for mine .

Happy to see names like Battle , Clavarino , Rice playing well in games future is ok for me.

All about development

 

[plugger66]

Log on and see posters saying Hickey AND MARSHALL should be playing before Longer.
Log off immediately.

Yes all of about 2 posters have said it.


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[plugger66]

Pretty tiresome subject for mine .

Happy to see names like Battle , Clavarino , Rice playing well in games future is ok for me.

All about development

My guess is if it’s a topic all the time then we must have a few good rucks or none. We have none unfortunately. It’s ok to be arrogant about how good longer is if he was good but he is a very honest trier. We have spent pretty big on rucks and haven’t got a lot to show


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[gringo2011]

My guess is if it’s a topic all the time then we must have a few good rucks or none. We have none unfortunately. It’s ok to be arrogant about how good longer is if he was good but he is a very honest trier. We have spent pretty big on rucks and haven’t got a lot to show


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I think with Billy they are just thinking they see him becoming dominant. He's a couple of disposals off Mc Evoy (who was not great as an actual ruck but good around the ground) and Goldy at the same age. Both are comparable as Mc Evoy was pick 8 and Billy pick 9 in their respective drafts and Goldy is a similar size a and weight. Billy is way ahead of both in actual hit outs though, even if you don't rate the stat he at least neutralises the contest from guys like Gawn who are very dominant. He's again slightly behind on disposals per game but slightly ahead of Gawn on hit outs. He's not flash Billy but he's very serviceable with potential to be a similar player to Gawn or Goldy in the future.

To me Hickey is second fiddle but it sounds like Billy has missed most of preseason and come back and injured a hip. That should give Hickey a couple of weeks to show he's got what it takes to be the first ruck picked. If Hickey can beat Stef Martin he might win a few over.

 

[Stewart66]

Pretty tiresome subject for mine .

Happy to see names like Battle , Clavarino , Rice playing well in games future is ok for me.

All about development

Particularly when statistically Matthew Kreuzer , Stephan Martin , Todd Goldstein are top ruckman
played in teams at the bottom and the majority of teams that made the 8 have only average ones.

More concerned about the other 21 players for me

 

[plugger66]

I think with Billy they are just thinking they see him becoming dominant. He's a couple of disposals off Mc Evoy (who was not great as an actual ruck but good around the ground) and Goldy at the same age. Both are comparable as Mc Evoy was pick 8 and Billy pick 9 in their respective drafts and Goldy is a similar size a and weight. Billy is way ahead of both in actual hit outs though, even if you don't rate the stat he at least neutralises the contest from guys like Gawn who are very dominant. He's again slightly behind on disposals per game but slightly ahead of Gawn on hit outs. He's not flash Billy but he's very serviceable with potential to be a similar player to Gawn or Goldy in the future.

To me Hickey is second fiddle but it sounds like Billy has missed most of preseason and come back and injured a hip. That should give Hickey a couple of weeks to show he's got what it takes to be the first ruck picked. If Hickey can beat Stef Martin he might win a few over.

I know what I see watching the game. We have average rucks but as pointed out. It’s hardly a position that matters anymore


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[Baldur]

I am a little disappointed after the JLT games. Mostly its same same. Where we were good, we remain good, where we were bad we remain bad.

Good
Lots of tough inside mids capable of winning the ball & applying pressure.
Reasonable tall forwards & backs, with an abundance of capable small forwards
A high pressure game style that when it works starves the other team of the ball & time.

Bad
Very few genuine A graders
A tendency to become predictable in attack & trapped in an inside game in both attack & defence
Inability to slow down the other teams scoring runs

The only real improvement is that it appears to me that our set shots have improved.

So unless something changes, on present form we are looking at 8th to 12th again.

 

[BillingsMagic]

Hunter & Coffield the only positives thus far.

Feels like we’re still playing the same game plan from 2016.

Did Melbourne switch off or did we actually turn up? I’m not so sure.

 

[gringo2011]

I am a little disappointed after the JLT games. Mostly its same same. Where we were good, we remain good, where we were bad we remain bad.

Good
Lots of tough inside mids capable of winning the ball & applying pressure.
Reasonable tall forwards & backs, with an abundance of capable small forwards
A high pressure game style that when it works starves the other team of the ball & time.

Bad
Very few genuine A graders
A tendency to become predictable in attack & trapped in an inside game in both attack & defence
Inability to slow down the other teams scoring runs

The only real improvement is that it appears to me that our set shots have improved.

So unless something changes, on present form we are looking at 8th to 12th again.

I think I'd take that, especially 8th. I think on previous form that's about where we belong after losing Montagna and Rooey. If we can kick straight and get improvement from 4 or 5 youth players we can probably do better. A few key injuries and stagnations though could easily see us go backwards.

 

[Rors]

Hunter & Coffield the only positives thus far.

Feels like we’re still playing the same game plan from 2016.

Did Melbourne switch off or did we actually turn up? I’m not so sure.

A bit of both I reckon. Our boys would have copped a rocket at half time & thus responded. Melbourne didn’t play with the same energy in that 3rd quarter, but did turn their intensity back up in the last

 

[hayes]

At one stage in the first quarter we were 38 kicks to 53 handballs. Horrific.

 

[Rors]

I think I'd take that, especially 8th. I think on previous form that's about where we belong after losing Montagna and Rooey. If we can kick straight and get improvement from 4 or 5 youth players we can probably do better. A few key injuries and stagnations though could easily see us go backwards.

I just think it’s a scary notion that we’ve been missing from the finals for 6 years in a row (possibly a 7th if we miss this year) & we have not drafted a single player which we’ve developed enough to be labelled ‘elite’ during that time. I’m horrified at that.

Sure, we need to give some guys time, but the 2011 & 2012 guys should be pushing elite status by now & they aren’t even close. Only bloke close to that level is Billings from the 2013 crop who is entering his 5th season.

We really do need everyone to come along quickly this year including New boys Clark & Coffield, but more importantly the 2013-2015 guys need to step up significantly if we are to do any good in the 2018

 

[gringo2011]

I just think it’s a scary notion that we’ve been missing from the finals for 6 years in a row (possibly a 7th if we miss this year) & we have not drafted a single player which we’ve developed enough to be labelled ‘elite’ during that time. I’m horrified at that.

Sure, we need to give some guys time, but the 2011 & 2012 guys should be pushing elite status by now & they aren’t even close. Only bloke close to that level is Billings from the 2013 crop who is entering his 5th season.

We really do need everyone to come along quickly this year including New boys Clark & Coffield, but more importantly the 2013-2015 guys need to step up significantly if we are to do any good in the 2018

I wore about that too, it's funny though some how we manage to be a very competitive side. That's why I rate Richo our list is pretty poor even in comparison to North, Carlton, GCS and Brisbane. All have some better top end talents than us. Brisbane has had injuries to a lot of their better players in that time so has probably been stockpiling but still aren't competitive like us.

It feels like crunch time for our recruiters this year. We need Billings, Gresham and Acres to take the step up to consistent guns who take hold of games and Dunstan, Paddy etc to keep developing.

We really want Hunter and Coffield to keep the positive starts going as we gave up last years early draft pick to have access to these guys. They just have to be very very good players or it was being a bit too cute when we really needed young talent in developing.

I think what Trout's talent is, is finding good honest toilers like Seb and Newness who are great guys and hard workers but are just off that top level. That's why we are a competitive side despite not having obvious game breaking stars.

It's the first time in my memory we have had no real marquee player on our list. Jack Steven is probably the closest we have. The Saints have always had one hero on field we could latch onto in the bleak times. It's a bit of a new era. I'm worried but hopeful. We are on the crossroad and could take two very different paths. The kids develop we become a destination club and get some FAs and are away.

On the flip side the kids stagnate, Stuv has ankle issue, Armos back pops, Paddy busts and we get a bad injury run. We blame the coach for finishing bottom 4, new coach dumps a whole lot of mid tier and older players, some leave for greener pastures and we are early 2000s Melbourne.

 

[cooperrules]

At one stage in the first quarter we were 38 kicks to 53 handballs. Horrific.

Richos version of hot potatoe

 

[aussierulesrules]

Did Melbourne switch off or did we actually turn up? I’m not so sure.

I was there and I can tell you with 1000% certainty that we came out in the 2nd half with vastly more intent and purpose and sharpness. Was so noticeable right from the first few seconds of the quarter and I commented on it in this thread at the time.

We had been working our way on top in general play (and scoring) for the last 15 or so mins of the 2nd quarter as well though, but the difference between how we came out in the 3rd quarter compared to the first was stark.

We just didn't show up in the first quarter of either game with any sort of intensity or intent and paid a big price both times.

Carlton actually looked really good to me early in our game against them and they wanted it so much more than us early on it wasn't funny (was like watching a team playing for premiership points v a team just blowing off the cobwebs) and they obviously played well again yesterday and again really wanted to win, so our loss to them looks far from a disaster- especially since it was on their home/training ground and they so obviously read the conditions much better than us- early in the game in particular.

If we show up switched on and ready to play for our first couple of games I wouldn't be surprised if we go really well. Losing these two JLT games will hopefully remove any chance if us going into them with any complacency against teams we'd expect to beat.

 

[lewdogs]

I just think it’s a scary notion that we’ve been missing from the finals for 6 years in a row (possibly a 7th if we miss this year) & we have not drafted a single player which we’ve developed enough to be labelled ‘elite’ during that time. I’m horrified at that.

Sure, we need to give some guys time, but the 2011 & 2012 guys should be pushing elite status by now & they aren’t even close. Only bloke close to that level is Billings from the 2013 crop who is entering his 5th season.

We really do need everyone to come along quickly this year including New boys Clark & Coffield, but more importantly the 2013-2015 guys need to step up significantly if we are to do any good in the 2018

I agree with where you're coming from, however I think parts of the post aren't exactly right. Firstly, you say no one from 2011 draft is even close to elite, I think Seb Ross is pretty damn close to that category based on last year. The 2012 draft was a disaster for us, but if you look at 2013 it was a very good draft. Billings, Dunstan and Acres came from that draft - I honestly think all three of those players have shown signs to become top-line players (Billings is already there).

When we talk about elite players, I think what we're really crying out for is actually elite midfielders. That's the glaring difference between us and a lot of the top teams. A good start would be Acres and Dunstan stepping up for sure, however the other reality is that we haven't actually drafted that many mids lately. That obviously changed this year with Clark who can hopefully become an elite player. I also think Gresham has the potential.

Not sure if I'm exactly refuting you here just thinking out loud

 

[Diehard Saint]

When we talk about elite players, I think what we're really crying out for is actually elite midfielders. That's the glaring difference between us and a lot of the top teams. A good start would be Acres and Dunstan stepping up for sure, however the other reality is that we haven't actually drafted that many mids lately. That obviously changed this year with Clark who can hopefully become an elite player. I also think Gresham has the potential.

Not sure if I'm exactly refuting you here just thinking out loud

A good start would be actually playing Acres a lot more in the midfield.
( You listening, Richo?)

 

[aussierulesrules]

It's not exactly reasonable to expect us to have found "elite" talent with picks in the 20's and beyond in the compromised 2011 and 2012 drafts!

The latter draft was pure garbage after the top 10 or so and I doubt any other club did better from picks 25+ in 2011 than we did, getting Seb, Newnes (who have 5 top 8 B&F finishes between them already), and Webster (also two top 10's), who are all best 22.

Trout's drafting is not spectacular, but it's very solid. He generally gets good value from his picks.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree with where you're coming from, however I think parts of the post aren't exactly right. Firstly, you say no one from 2011 draft is even close to elite, I think Seb Ross is pretty damn close to that category based on last year. The 2012 draft was a disaster for us, but if you look at 2013 it was a very good draft. Billings, Dunstan and Acres came from that draft - I honestly think all three of those players have shown signs to become top-line players (Billings is already there).

When we talk about elite players, I think what we're really crying out for is actually elite midfielders. That's the glaring difference between us and a lot of the top teams. A good start would be Acres and Dunstan stepping up for sure, however the other reality is that we haven't actually drafted that many mids lately. That obviously changed this year with Clark who can hopefully become an elite player. I also think Gresham has the potential.

Not sure if I'm exactly refuting you here just thinking out loud

It was the years under Ross Lyon where we had very little recruiting success and then the start of the rebuild when we gave away stars to FA and burnt those picks. If you think Stuv, Gears and Armo had hardly played under Lyon and Newnes, Webster, Ross and Minch were brought in under Watters that's not a big haul of talent. Most of the current successful clubs would have a big chunk of their talent that had been around for 7 plus years. We are super young.

 

[gringo2011]

It's not exactly reasonable to expect us to have found "elite" talent with picks in the 20's and beyond in the compromised 2011 and 2012 drafts!

The latter draft was pure garbage after the top 10 or so and I doubt any other club did better from picks 25+ in 2011 than we did, getting Seb, Newnes (who have 5 top 8 B&F finishes between them already), and Webster (also two top 10's) and are all best 22.

Trout's drafting is not spectacular, but it's very solid. He generally gets good value from his picks.

That's probably fair. We timed the rebuild very badly and selling off our stars to FA hasn't been quite the regenerator we would have liked it to be.

 

[Quixote]

Have we gone into full blown list analysis mode, before a ball has even been bounced in anger?

 

[Yabadoo22]

Quick question. Coffield seemed to do all his preseason training in the midfield groups and when we recruited him it was said that we were going to use him as a mid. What has changed since then? Do we still plan to do that or is he just a better back man at this stage.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Quick question. Coffield seemed to do all his preseason training in the midfield groups and when we recruited him it was said that we were going to use him as a mid. What has changed since then? Do we still plan to do that or is he just a better back man at this stage.

We say that with everyone we draft who usually plays on the flanks, but in this instance we probably do really hope he'll end up there, but at this stage he's probably not physically strong enough for a midfield role, and we're also struggling to find room in there for those who are, so he's gone back to the role he's most comfortable in and best at at this stage- which I think is a good way to find your feet at AFL level.

 

[aussierulesrules]

That's probably fair. We timed the rebuild very badly and selling off our stars to FA hasn't been quite the regenerator we would have liked it to be.

What it enabled us to do though was bottom-out (as opposed to staying around mid-table) and that got us Billings, Paddy and then the Carlisle/Gresham combo, out of those top 5 picks.

The 3 we got from the draft from those picks are arguably our 3 most important going forward.

 

[George]

What it enabled us to do though was bottom-out (as opposed to staying around mid-table) and that got us Billings, Paddy and then the Carlisle/Gresham combo, out of those top 5 picks.

The 3 we got from the draft from those picks are arguably our 3 most important going forward.

Sinclair with our high rookie draft pick, too.