List Mgmt. 2018 St Kilda Trade Thread Part 2

[Greg1853]

yeah, that would be the end of my membership until we righted the ship. We will be down another 5 years if we have an exodus. Longer, Yeo, Polec etc all left around 2013 and in 2018 the Lions are starting to show promise and finished 15th. That's pretty much where we are at now if we have an exodus but they at least ad a few guns on the books as well.

I don't think Longer leaving the Lions was responsible for any of there woes since then

 

[Greg1853]

OK, so Acres and Steven for Cerra and Brisvegas' first pick or GTFO. Bugger the extension contracts clearly mean squat.

If we trade Stuv, full rebuild mode will need to be in force. What a time to be alive if you are a mediocre player on St Kildas list getting paid stupid overs just so we can reach the minimum cap.

I feel like I'm cursed. BlacreJacks is on shaky ground...

I'd be making a pre-emptive name change. With the JB, Lonie and Stuv whispers, and the lack of supporter love for Newnes, our Jack love affair appears to be falling apart.

 

[gringo2011]

Unfortunately, like it or not, that's what the list needs. Make some tough calls and pump in quality picks...just have to nail most of the selections which is why I'm glad Trout isn't at the helm any longer!

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Trout and Libba are the same team but with a change of roles, I'm not sure much will change. At least a top 4 pick in this draft should be hard to botch.

 

[BangersAndMash]

Trout and Libba are the same team but with a change of roles, I'm not sure much will change. At least a top 4 pick in this draft should be hard to botch.

Ha! This is St Kilda you're talking about right?

 

[aussierulesrules]

99.99 sure that all clubs can trade their first rounders this year, including Geelong. That rule doesn't take effect until next year I believe.

If we were to entertain it (trading them Stuv) and thought it would be worth trading him for a really strong return, I wonder if we'd do it for their 2018 and 2019 firsts, with us paying some of his salary, to A: Help them stay under their cap and B: Help us meet our cap floor.

Then maybe we look to trade their 2019 first for another clubs 2018 first, or a couple of 2018 early 20's picks (or one from this year and one for next year), or something along those lines.

Then we hit the draft with 4, 12ish, and another pick in say the 10-20 range, or a couple of picks in the early 20's.

With all of those early picks and the possibility that we'd get a PP next year (if the AFL bring in a rule for clubs that have missed the finals for 5 or more years) we could bring in a lot of quality young talent over the next two years (maybe 5 from the top 20, or 5 or 6 from the top 25, across the two drafts).

IF we nail enough of those picks AND develop them well, and keep the best of our young group together, we'd have one of the most talented young lists in the league.

 

[Hayes4PM]

If you check the AFL stats for this year, this is how we were tracking in 2018:

• Dead last in Contested possessions
• Dead last in Clearances
• 2nd last in Tackles
• 2nd last in Contested Marks
• 2nd last in Goal Accuracy
• 3rd last in Hitouts
• And bog average in a lot of other stats as well

To me this shows that we're just not cracking in hard enough. It's probably both a coaching issue and a personnel issue, but the leaders and players in our group need to bloody stand up and be accountable for this pathetic effort

Unfortunately bringing in 1 or 2 B+ players won't fix the above, we need a systematic overhaul of our systems and list, as it quite obviously shows we are so far off the mark it's terrifying

Are you telling me that we are not strong enough in the contest..???

 

[aussierulesrules]

Are you telling me that we are not strong enough in the contest..???

Shows you how much Richo has failed to get us playing the way he wants us to.

 

[gringo2011]

99.99 sure that all clubs can trade their first rounders this year, including Geelong. That rule doesn't take effect until next year I believe.

If we were to entertain it (trading them Stuv) and thought it would be worth trading him for a really strong return, I wonder if we'd do it for their 2018 and 2019 firsts, with us paying some of his salary, to A: Help them stay under their cap and B: Help us meet our cap floor.

Then maybe we look to trade their 2019 first for another clubs 2018 first, or a couple of 2018 early 20's picks (or one from this year and one for next year), or something along those lines.

Then we hit the draft with 4, 12ish, and another pick in say the 10-20 range, or a couple of picks in the early 20's.

With all of those early picks and the possibility that we'd get a PP next year (if the AFL bring in a rule for clubs that have missed the finals for 5 or more years) we could bring in a lot of quality young talent over the next two years (maybe 5 from the top 20 or 5 or 6 from the top 25).

IF we nail enough of those picks AND develop them well, we'd have one of the most talented young lists in the league.

Sounds like Carlton and GC. I reckon there are going to be a lot of fans drop away if we go full rebuild. Im hard core passionate and I'm almost done with them. I was that close to calling up to cancel our memberships today. Nothing in our recruiting department has changed properly and I can't see why we would go hard at the draft with the few good players we have. It would make us worse in every way. Probably costs us Gresham and Billings after next year too. We are going to be finding it hard to justify our existence if we don't turn things around. With FA making the top teams much more attractive we will be in an eternal rebuild and at the mercy of the AFL calling in our debt.

 

[STK2020]

Sounds like Carlton and GC. I reckon there are going to be a lot of fans drop away if we go full rebuild. Im hard core passionate and I'm almost done with them. I was that close to calling up to cancel our memberships today. Nothing in our recruiting department has changed properly and I can't see why we would go hard at the draft with the few good players we have. It would make us worse in every way. Probably costs us Gresham and Billings after next year too. We are going to be finding it hard to justify our existence if we don't turn things around. With FA making the top teams much more attractive we will be in an eternal rebuild and at the mercy of the AFL calling in our debt.

Hang in there Gringo, hopefully the club keeps building up the star studded coaching department and we should expect to see big improvement in lead up games before Rd1 .
Would be brilliant to add ready made class to help out but if not then mite as well pick the best possible kids early and top up with depth type .
Strap yourself in and enjoy the circus of trade week .

 

[pebblesofsand]

I was certainly interested to read/hear over the preseason how Melbourne's preseason training sessions were all about contests and winning contested ball, etc, whereas ours was said to be mainly focused on working on our transition.

As a result, our inside numbers dropped off dramatically and unlike Melbourne, the area we did really emphasise at training didn't improve much, if at all.

Last year we finished 3rd in the comp for clearance differential, and in the 2nd half of the year we were winning the clearances pretty much every week, and also winning the CP battle most weeks towards the end of the year, yet this year we've come dead-last for total clearances and also for CP's!?

It's a huge drop-off and to see our tackle numbers also so low (last year we were 2nd behind Richmond for forward 50 tackles) is also alarming.

No wonder some are saying we've completely lost our "brand".

It also suggests that our drop-off this year was the result of a lot more than just losing Roo and Joey, as I don't remember them winning too many clearances or CP's, or laying a heap of tackles.

Koby Stevens did though, so we may have missed him more than he's given credit for.

We also had Longer winning the hitouts most weeks then as well, and our ability to win clearances seems to strongly correlate to whether we're competitive in the ruck contests or not.

Early last year and basically all this year we weren't, and those times correlated with us being bottom 2 for clearances during those periods. Conversely, when Longer was consistently winning the ruck contests in 2017, we were top 2 or 3 for clearance differential during that period.

Hard to know what to make of anything these days. The reigning premier and hot favourite for this years flag is only 8th for CP's this year and 14th for tackles so its seems that the "perception" of pressure is more important than actually implementing it.

 

[Mowman]

Where is the talk of Steven to cats coming from ?

 

[TheJackal]

I'd be making a pre-emptive name change. With the JB, Lonie and Stuv whispers, and the lack of supporter love for Newnes, our Jack love affair appears to be falling apart.

I'm going to need to change my sons name too it seems. I knew I should've called him Trevor or Lenny instead of Jack!

 

[STK2020]

Hard to know what to make of anything these days. The reigning premier and hot favourite for this years flag is only 8th for CP's this year and 14th for tackles so its seems that the "perception" of pressure is more important than actually implementing it.

Its different watching Richmond play , almost Rugby league like , stack up behind the ball and just keep moving ball forward at all cost .
GWS style of uncontested marking and hitting up targets mite upset them .

 

[aussierulesrules]

Sounds like Carlton and GC. I reckon there are going to be a lot of fans drop away if we go full rebuild. Im hard core passionate and I'm almost done with them. I was that close to calling up to cancel our memberships today. Nothing in our recruiting department has changed properly and I can't see why we would go hard at the draft with the few good players we have. It would make us worse in every way. Probably costs us Gresham and Billings after next year too. We are going to be finding it hard to justify our existence if we don't turn things around. With FA making the top teams much more attractive we will be in an eternal rebuild and at the mercy of the AFL calling in our debt.

Yep, it would be a big risk for sure, for all those reasons.

Or it could be the thing that sets us up for a sustained crack at flags over the following 10 years, and the easier draw we'll get and the coaching changes we've made might ensure that we aren't worse next year, even without Steven.

Don't forget that in 2014 we came dead-last, and Lenny had one of his best years and came 2nd in our B&F, but then retired (and we also lost Stanley, Gwilt and Jones, who played plenty of seniors that year as well) and some were tipping us to not win a game the following year as a result, yet we improved significantly instead.

So just like we weren't for losing Lenny, we wouldn't automatically be worse if we lost Stuv. It would depend on a whole lot of factors.

As for nothing in our recruiting team having changed significantly, one thing that has changed is that apart from Libba taking over, Trout is no longer doing the job of two men (list and recruiting managing, which most clubs apparently have two doing, and which we now have two doing), and regardless, I'm very comfortable with the value we look to have gotten from most of our draft picks in recent years, so I'm happy for them to get us some more Gresham/Clark/Coffield/Long/Battle types with those picks.

You also include Billings and Acres in your gripes about our recent drafting, yet as I said yesterday, Billings is almost certainly the 3rd best performed and on track to have the 3rd best career of the top 10 or 12 taken in that draft, so if that's a bust I'm not sitting here, and after a lot of injuries in his first two years, Acres has clearly improved from year to year and was one of our very best early in the year prior to injury, and on track for a real breakout year, so I'd be very happy for another one as talented as him with a pick around 20.

Paddy as a really high pick is looking very shaky, but I imagine that would have been a club decision (especially after Boyd cost WB so much), and Melbourne were going to take him with one of their two picks straight after ours (if we didn't take him), so it's not like we plucked him out of nowhere.

Prior to Petracca really hitting his straps Paddy was the one widely tipped to go no.1 that year early on. Repeated concussions and injuries have seriously derailed his career, so it's a lot harder to say how he would have gone without them.

 

[D2D3]

Where is the talk of Steven to cats coming from ?

Barrett

 

[Mowman]

Barrett

What are we getting for him ?

 

[Pardon me]

Bugger me. Being a St Kilda supporter sucks in September.

Jump on New Orleans mate. Down a running back but all the pundits have us at the pointy end of the season

 

[aussierulesrules]

What are we getting for him ?

If it happens, you would think plenty, as Geelong are one of the teams that are great to deal with, and if anything give overs to just get deals done, plus you wouldn't think we'd do it unless it was extremely worthwhile.

 

[tomjoad]

Who TF cares? They topped up like Geelong and won't win another flag.

Don't need their supporters telling us what to do.

You love them so much more than the Saints go and support the wees and poos.

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Okay mate, calm down...take your meds like a good chap and relax. Should've known what I was in for when replying to your comment...you've got a bit of a rep for jumping off the deep end, that's on me I'm a Saints man like you, just realistic & reasonable about the state of our list (which we're trying to top up with experience and talent in case you're a little lost with what's going on) and i'm also reasonable and realistic where we are at as a club. I can't see us winning a flag anytime soon, can you? Geelong and the Hawkes are at least near the vicinity of the window, whilst we're begging for scraps with Hanner-knacker money. Also both are well run organisations. You can't deny that, the proof is there in plain sight. Anyway dude, try not to jump into any holes you can't dig yourself out from...wouldn't want you to get lost down there. Peace out.

 

[Keg on legs]

What are we getting for him ?

Barrett? Probably a half eaten mentos

 

[gringo2011]

Yep, it would be a big risk for sure, for all those reasons.

Or it could be the thing that sets us up for a sustained crack at flags over the following 10 years, and the easier draw we'll get and the coaching changes we've made might ensure that we aren't worse next year, even without Steven.

Don't forget that in 2014 we came dead-last, and Lenny had one of his best years and came 2nd in our B&F, but then retired (and we also lost Stanley, Gwilt and Jones, who played plenty of seniors that year as well) and some were tipping us to not win a game the following year as a result, yet we improved significantly instead.

So just like we weren't for losing Lenny, we wouldn't automatically be worse if we lost Stuv. It would depend on a whole lot of factors.

As for nothing in our recruiting team having changed significantly, one thing that has changed is that apart from Libba taking over, Trout is no longer doing the job of two men (list and recruiting managing, which most clubs apparently have two doing, and which we now have two doing), and regardless, I'm very comfortable with the value we look to have gotten from most of our draft picks in recent years, so I'm happy for them to get us some more Gresham/Clark/Coffield/Long/Battle types with those picks.

You also include Billings and Acres in your gripes about our recent drafting, yet as I said yesterday, Billings is almost certainly the 3rd best performed and on track to have the 3rd best career of the top 10 or 12 taken in that draft, so if that's a bust I'm not sitting here, and after a lot of injuries in his first two years, Acres has clearly improved from year to year and was one of our very best early in the year prior to injury, and on track for a real breakout year, so I'd be very happy for another one as talented as him with a pick around 20.

Paddy as a really high pick is looking very shaky, but I imagine that would have been a club decision (especially after Boyd cost WB so much), and Melbourne were going to take him with one of their two picks straight after ours (if we didn't take him), so it's not like we plucked him out of nowhere.

Prior to Petracca really hitting his straps Paddy was the one widely tipped to go no.1 that year early on. Repeated concussions and injuries have seriously derailed his career, so it's a lot harder to say how he would have gone without them.

We still had a much much better older brigade still the though. Stuv is our only a grade senior and would leave Brown, Geary and Armo as our only seniors. We would probably have to spend picks to get worse players like Hanners that would off set any benefit.

I think because we burnt the rebuild we have to just go back and build the proper way and use the draft with out being too clever. The best way to get top talent to bottom clubs is the top end of the draft but like Melbourne expecting Scully and Trengove to be the front line force, you can kill development when you lack a senior core.

 

[Verdun66]

Where is the talk of Steven to cats coming from ?

Here. Probably where that Purple d******d got it from. Also comes from down there, big mates with Danger etc etc. There has been talk of a couple of trades Saints fans won’t like. This could be one.....

 

[Mowman]

So we want Hannabery but dont want Steven ? Sounds very Stkilda like

 

[Sir Skid]

So we want Hannabery but dont want Steven ? Sounds very Stkilda like

Remember though, we're smarter than those other clubs

 

[Verdun66]

So we want Hannabery but dont want Steven ? Sounds very Stkilda like

I’d say we do want Steven, but trading him at an optimum time could benefit us in the long term. Are we going to contend in the next 3 years? Probably not. Jack then 32,33?

What can we get trading him? No idea. And I do agree you need a core of Senior players around the youngsters. Would have to be a very good deal. But it is something a strong minded club might do.