HBF
Flying Scotsman
- Sep 24, 2002
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Feel like we've stuffed up that mid-season draft badly.
Analysis 2019 List Management Discussion II
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Feel like we've stuffed up that mid-season draft badly.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
- May 31, 2012
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Wrong on every point you've made- no matter how much you like spraying the same old stuff - you've been schooled by plenty of posters with great detail as to why you are wrong - but you still yell the same old stuff at every opportunity.
Agenda.
HBF
Flying Scotsman
- Sep 24, 2002
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Yeah it sounds like the entire thing was one big cluster f***!
Hopefully we right the ship for the next time we take a pick in the mid-season draft.
Schooled you say? No need to be playing it tough and then say nothing.
I've been saying this for a couple of years and Barass stated that there has been disgruntlement with SOS, our late ND and RD selections.
I'm sorry you can't see it because I saw it first hand and close up.....and all you have is......agenda? Poor homework Jab.
Take a shot and school me, please. What did you see and is Barass wrong too?
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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I think your research is wrong Harks - SOS is the best thing to have happened to list management at Carlton in 20 years. When we win #17 he will have been the main architect. If he goes now it is politics not competency. I hope he stays for a decade.
Research has nothing to do with it and I have no issue nor agenda against SOS.
I want him to stay and for the mistakes we may have made, will be corrected in the future.
Why do you think Liddle wanted a review of the List Management department?
What was the leverage he may have used to insist on such a review?
Anyway, if SOS stays then great because there's a lot of things he does very well.
Having to recruit every person that walks through our doors may though be handled differently.
- Aug 22, 2014
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Interesting to consider the philosophy of that mid-season draft.
We used it, ostensibly, for the purpose it was designed for. Picked up a mature age, state league player who was in good form.
Melbourne took it as a free hit at a young player who probably would have gone in the 30-50 range in this coming draft. Which was an "unintended outcome" from the AFL's perspective.
Don't think there's a hard and fast best approach, just have to take it as it comes. We were severely lagging last season and needed to try and get ourselves back on track - makes sense to me, we wouldn't have been playing Dunkley ahead of guys like Dow, Setterfield, SPS etc. Got plenty of kids, we needed to add some physicality.
Picking a player (especially at pick 1) who only lasts half a season is a waste.
ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
The result was disappointing.
But if you pick up a kid, he's unlikely to play in that year.
If you pick up a state league player - there's usually a reason he's stuck in the state leages; eg lack of pace, finesse, size, skills. You draft him, see if he can get around that at AFL level. If he can't you probably find your answer out pretty quickly.
I'd rather cut someone after 6 months of not much than after 2.5 years of not much....
- Aug 22, 2014
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Let's not get carried away here.
Deluca is training with the club, clearly there's a possibility he gets another shot. And as I said, what we were looking for, and what the mid season draft was designed for, was a short-term option to fill an area of need.
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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Well you'll have to go back and put in context Mr Baldy's statements regarding full reviews - to my mind his utterances were ill conceived and stupid - just like Judd's were at the time.
Glad you want SOS to stay.
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How Webb became aware of Blues interest ...
www.sen.com.au
How Webb became aware of Blues interest
Lukas Webb is hoping to be re-drafted by Carlton.
www.sen.com.au
ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
Exactly....I mean six of the guys selected in the mid-season draft don't even have Wikipedia pages!!!
- Jun 6, 2012
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Why is it that every single person that ever talks about 'doing your research' follow up that statement up with an emotional spiel and zero research?
JustaBattler
Everyone Looks Better In Blue
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ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
Rookie draft has been poor and there are reasons for that. Late national drafting has been average, not poor. You could demand better and that is fair enough but it doesn't take into account of all aspects as to why this might be so. It's easy to just say bad recruiting when in reality there is a lot more to it than that.
You're not going to find many player in the rookie draft if you're targeting talls and mids and crossing off players who are not going to impact the club culture in a positive way. That's just a fact. Players don't make it to the rookie draft if they have talent and there are not other issues there apart from the extremely rare cases.
Yes we have set limitations as Richmond probably did and that has seen things a bit slim on the back end of our recruiting. But you need to consider what we have gained from that. Club culture is huge, if we don't build that now then we never win any premierships. Laziness sinks in and coaches, fitness people are seen to be failing. You also have a situation where players talk and no top players want to go to the club with the unprofessional culture. We've seen our players return to training in top condition, that's not just Andrew Russell, that's the culture of the place as well. It's a massive thing. It only takes a few players who don't buy in to influence a young group to go the other way. What else we have got is an amazing salary cap and will have for a very long time. People don't get the use of salary dump, they wonder why you don't just top up the salaries of Cripps or Curnow. It's easy. You pay the young guys an extra 122-300K now and you will be paying them an extra 100-300K later. Players always want more and their salaries always go up and we also need to be able to offload a lot of salary at once so one year contracts on good coin means we can do that.
I don't know how many times I have to remind people that Richmond, a current powerhouse club who has built a great list and culture did not find any talent late in the draft or rookie draft until two years from it's first premiership. Their reasons for that would be the same reasons we have. They are the benchmark side and a powerhouse with an awesome list and we're following the exact rebuild plan as them and you're complaining? That's the part I don't get about this.
There are very good reasons why we have taken the senior players we have taken. I understand that and have tried to explain that the best I can. That strategy has worked very well. Quality of the players is irrelevant, they have done their job and played their role. Obviously it would be nice to try and draft long term stars with every list spot but clubs don't do that, it's just unrealistic.
I highlighted what I have because I couldn't disagree less. Our targeting of types has been perfect. We targeted talls early and not long after midfielders. Can't argue with that, it's a tried and proven method and it's paying off. It's an incredibly logical plan. Start with the slower developing more important and influential types early and finish with the quicker developing and less influential types later. Teams who have built dynasties such as Hawthorn and Richmond both followed the same plan as this.
We haven't missed much, our recruiting is above average and after this season is probably going to look well above average. Our hit rate is looking really good.
Our uptake of senior players has been poor because we have only had access to senior players no one else wanted until recently. No one wants to go to a club that is bottom of the ladder and going through a long term rebuild until that club proves that it is coming to the end of that rebuild. Not unless you grossly overpaid them. Since we have proven ourselves we have had an intake of Newman who has been really good, McGovern who will prove to be really good this season, Pittonett who will fill an important role, Betts who will play a role for a couple of years and we had Papley and a few others wanting to come to us. For a side that still finished down the bottom that's not bad and will only get better.
Liddle might have SOS under the pump, for all we know Liddle is very good at what he does but might simply not understand the rebuild we have been doing and not understand why we've been doing what we have been doing. Pretty bloody easy for people to be great at their job and not understand someone else's (football). If Liddle isn't happy with our strategy and doesn't get it and sticks his nose where it doesn't belong then I have bigger questions over him than anyone else. Liddle's skillset is in the corporate area of the club, not the football area of the club, if people are venturing outside their field then that's really not good, people should stick to what they know. I'd rather trust Silvagni when it comes to football just like I would trust Liddle over the corporate side of things.
The people who have been bagging our rebuilding strategy and recruiting aren't far away from becoming really red faced.
Opine
Norm Smith Medallist
- Aug 30, 2018
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This reminds me.
When Deluca was first recruited you made a commented that another Italian was coming into the club; you made it clear that you were "just saying." But, some time later, in another unrelated post, you said that a person's racial origin should never be a point of discussion.
I'm drawing an unreasonably long bow, and the circumstantial link in my assumption is rather loose; to say the very least. But, I think your reliance on a fragment of b70's posting, ripping it out of its context, and using it to support your argument that SOS is no good, is just as silly as me ripping your comment about Deluca, linking it to your apparent dislike of SOS and MLG, and concluding that you just don't like either because they're Italian. It would be a silly thing for me to do, don't you think?
That wasn't something I'd say unless I thought I was being funny (which is an unlikely outcome) or in an unrelated context, suggesting that SOS likes Italians.
I'll give up drinking if I said that in a way you're putting forward.
Opine
Norm Smith Medallist
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Harks, I'm certain that you didn't mean in that way. But you can see how taking a single post out of its context can be used to support any argument.
You mean Lloyd and Liddle?
Look, there's quite a bit going on and not everyone is happy and haven't been for some time.
As far as bagging the rebuild; I don't think anyone is on the whole.
At least that's not what I'm saying. We've been good in some facets and somewhat poor in others.
I want us to be good in all facets of recruitment and it doesn't mean we'll hit every target, but our later picks have been lazy; Train at Carlton and onto the list you go.
Richmond? And you think that's a good thing they didn't find quality via late picks and rookie drafts, but when they did they won Premierships?
I don't really understand what you're getting at, because you've just agreed with my position.
Anyway, there was a lot more to Richmond than late draft picks; Neil Balme.
Sorry, I didn't read the last paragraph. Don't like reading very much...nor writing for that matter.
Anyway, I saw what I saw and I hear what I hear and put the pieces together to form my opinion. That's all.
thylacine60
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Batty goes Bang, again!
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