List Mgmt. 2019 Trade Thread - Part V

[majortinkle]

I was talking about if the same club loses a fa and gains one. That’s why it has to be before the trade period ends. Just get rid of compensation

I see what you're getting at - you're saying that (due to the current comp rules) the trade period has to go longer than FA so that they can be certain of what FA brings the various clubs in terms of compensation. Presumably you can't trade a compensation pick prior to the end of FA in that case

Still rubbish but at least there is a reason I suppose - I hadn't thought of that.

 

[austinnn]

We need King to be a superstar. We really are all in on him now Bruce is gone. He can't be mc Kay good he needs to be Josh Kennedy good and soon. We need a player who can come in and set the tempo for the side. Bont seemed to be the player who drove a pretty handy list forward when he came in and Stephenson reinvigorated the Pies. We need our version of that. No pressure on him or anything.

Got a feeling Hunter Clark might be that guy.

 

[Diehard Saint]

If he leaves as a free agent , before it closes off , compensation applies.
But trade season was still going and the Blues were chasing Martin. So they couldn't really sign him up then.
So he missed free agency, and we are delisting him so he can go to the blues as a delisted free agent, cos we are nice.

Its a crap system.

We did get both Robbo and Membrey as delisted free agents...win some, lose some.

 

[bergholt]

We have 42 contracted out of a maximum 45 (given we only have 1 Cat B) - so 3 in ND of which 1 has to be Joyce as a rookie upgrade

No, ND picks are based on the number of spots we have free on the senior list. We only have 36 on there currently so it's 4 draft picks. None of the rookies have to be upgraded - we could delist Joyce and redraft him to the rookie list - but if we don't upgrade someone then we have one too many rookies.

 

[ScrappyDo]

We can relax about Wilkie.
Skill and composer are back in vogue at the saints, so he ain't going anywhere.

Marsh, Joyce, Mayo are still unknown quantities and not yet worth upgrading based on demonstrated output.

Newnes leaving is also a good thing for the list to move on from the Cho years.
Both he and the GOAT would have been well over paid for what they've produced and having wage disparity is never any good for any organization.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but our new list management is impressing the hell out of me.
I'll put the Dmac extention down to a collective brain fart, but the rest of it has been faultless as far as l can tell.

 

[jwikked]

Wow, pretty surprised by the Newnes de-listing. Definitely a handy depth player.

He has been a good servant of the club, but it appears we are certainly cutting the deadwood from our list.

He has had an interesting career trajectory, looked like he was emerging as a very solid B grader in 2016 but since then his career has spiralled. Despite that he played 123 consecutive games! Probably shows how poor our depth has been through the period.

Hope he does well at his next club.

was he delisted? I read that he had a contract for 2 years given to him. Sounds more like we delisted him so he can get to another club which is probably fair.
Reckon his compensation pick would have been handy a few weeks back, even if it was 3rd round.

 

[jwikked]

Kane Cornes said that Champion data had Dougal as the number 1 performed FB in the league before they moved him forward after the first 8 weeks. Said he's the player we are most excited about getting. This has O'Shaunessey all over it. its of players like him and Jones I think have peaks in form that show they could be money ball pick ups.

Reckon with Howard the sky is the limit. Our trade with Port will go down in the ages as one of the all time greats I reckon.

 

[Peterbudge]

Why do we have 4 spots on the list?

By my count we only have 3?

Full list at start of last season (44)
+ Marsh, Rowe, Mayo
- Armo, Longer, Pierce, Rowe
- Steven, Bruce, Acres
+ Hill, Jones, Butler, Howard, Ryder
- White, Rice, Young, Newnes

Equals 41. 3 spots free

What am i missing?

 

[sammm]

We can relax about Wilkie.
Skill and composer are back in vogue at the saints, so he ain't going anywhere.

Marsh, Joyce, Mayo are still unknown quantities and not yet worth upgrading based on demonstrated output.

Newnes leaving is also a good thing for the list to move on from the Cho years.
Both he and the GOAT would have been well over paid for what they've produced and having wage disparity is never any good for any organization.

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but our new list management is impressing the hell out of me.
I'll put the Dmac extention down to a collective brain fart, but the rest of it has been faultless as far as l can tell.

I wonder Why was dmac extended?

 

[ScrappyDo]

Got a feeling Hunter Clark might be that guy.

I really want to see how this Bytel kid goes. Him and Hunter, both duel sided, skilled and BIG units with strut!

 

[ScrappyDo]

I wonder Why was dmac extended?

The best theory I've heard is that he would have been cheap.
Maybe they've got plans for him.

 

[Saintbloke]

The best theory I've heard is that he would have been cheap.
Maybe they've got plans for him.

2020= DMac breakout season.

 

[saints2066]

The best theory I've heard is that he would have been cheap.
Maybe they've got plans for him.

Would have preferred white over dmac


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[gringo2011]

Reckon with Howard the sky is the limit. Our trade with Port will go down in the ages as one of the all time greats I reckon.

I hope so. I'm not 100% sold on anything but Hill so far but that can quickly change once we start to see some good signs. I'll pretend I always rated him despite knowing his name and not much else about him before trade period. I have watched a bit of Port and never really took heed of him. Byrne- Jones looks like a real quality high possession running back and the best of what I have noticed they had down back, but KPBs are hardly the glamour players.

 

[gringo2011]

2020= DMac breakout season.

We like pace it seems and he has that.

 

[Premium]

i think we need Browns leadership. i think it also says something about some of those names on the list.

Trout's magnificent trade for Logan is questionable. Clavarino isn't living up to the hype. Marsh can't take the big guys. Joyce unlikely but depth. Howard a bit of an unknown until we see how he goes.

i think Brown will be very valuable for the younger backs.

Brown kept because he will be still better than any kid we get with pick 100 and he is a very good leader and will help a lot of the inexperienced guys in the preseason , I fully expect him to only be playing at Sandringham and developing the younger guys.

What I expect in our backline
Geary/ Paton - Howard - Wilkie
Roberton - Carlisle - Webster

What I expect at Sandringham
McKenzie - Brown - Marsh
Austin - Clavarino - Savage

 

[Keg on legs]

 

[Premium]

We like pace it seems and he has that.

It will all come down to preseason and injuries - a lot hinges on Carlisle - Hannebery , Roberton and King , if they all look good in preseason and are injury free it is going to make positions in the team very hard to get into the best 22.
For instance can Geary stay injury free , going on 32 and having leg complaints might limit him this year , but if fit he will most probably hold his place which is a shame because now he would be holding the development up on some of the kids like Paton and Coffield.

Geary - Howard - Wilkie
Roberton - Carlisle - Hunter Clark
Billings - Hannebery - Hill
Butler - Battle - Jones
Gresham - Membery - King

Marshall - Steele - Ross

Dunstan , Coffield , Bytel , Webster
emg - Ryder , Paton

Butlers position will be under the pump because it will all depend on who is firing - Parker , Long , Kent , Lonie

It's going to be interesting to see how Bytel goes in preseason , because if he goes well I fully expect they will play the kid.

in all this team looks strong everywhere

 

[StFly]

The best theory I've heard is that he would have been cheap.
Maybe they've got plans for him.

Geary replacement as remember, Geary was originally a winger that turned into a flanker that became a lockdown small defender very similar to what DMac has done thus far and someone like White is more the Robbo mould and Robbo is the clear superior player, as was Gilbo.

 

[CursingFijian]

Exactly - and I really can't see a reason why it is as it is - it benefits absolutely nobody, but shafts the owning club

Maybe he wanted to shaft the club on his way out?

 

[prophetic1]

Depends how you look at it. I’d suggest your bench are all ordinary players in the position they play. King unproven. Lonie just ok. Harsh but probably the same with Wilkie. Anyway depth is overrated in ordinary sides. Depth is important in good sides. If you are losing with mostly your best 22 then you are losing still with a player outside the 22. We need better top 15 players more than top 30 players

There is definitely a great wisdom in that paragraph...just making sure i understand it...your saying theres no point having depth to cover average players..what depth really refers to is the ability a team may have in their extended list to cover top quality 'elite' talent with almost as good a quality players. otherwise depth is not depth its just extra players on a list. i guess i'd never really clearly considered the meaning of depth in a team but yeah that is so true..bloody obvious now that ive seen it.. SO the up shot of that understanding is as you say to make sure you get the abundance of 'elite' first worry about depth second. otherwise you get the cart before the horse

 

[austinnn]

Where does the idea that the umpires rate Ross come from?

In 2018, the only players to average 28+ disposals and not get more than 10 Brownlow votes were Treloar (only played 13 games), B.Crouch (a genuine extractor) and Ross.

In 2019, Ross had no Stuv taking votes off him and as a team we won a lot more games (= more votes). He still couldn’t crack top 25 in the brownlow. Players like Bont, T.Kelly and Shiel average roughly the same stats, and get many many more votes than Ross does.

So no. Its safe to say the umpires don’t rate Ross at all. That's because (unlike the players above) Ross is seen by most as an ineffective accumulator. That's also why he never ever gets tagged. Like Geary, the opposition is happy for him to have it 26+ times, because they know he wont hurt you (and will spray the ball all over the shop).

Besides, his votes came against Gold Coast twice, Carlton, Melbourne, Freo and Hawthorn. More than half of his votes came just against GC and Carlton. Where was he against decent opposition? That's the problem with just looking at raw numbers.

By contrast, Marshall got his votes against teams like Richmond, the Bulldogs and Geelong. Personally I would rate even 1 vote against Geelong, Richmond, GWS or Richmond much higher than getting more than half your votes against Gold Coast and Carlton. Just shows him to be a soft downhill skier!

Sheed averaged about the same amount of touches and got the same amount of brownlow votes. In a good team (like Sheed is), he only just cracked top 10 in the B+F and was about 100 votes off the winner. Not sure West coast would lose too much sleep if they lost Sheed. Duncan is the same. Averages almost identical stats and got 11 Brownlow votes. He ran 8th in the B+F.

So if the umpires rate Sheed, Duncan and Ross about the same (and they get about the same amount of stats), the only one overrating Ross is people in here. He might be our B+F but he is barely a top 10 player in a good side. It just shows a) our top end is extremely shallow, and B) our coaches overrate the impact Ross has.

Looking back I still cant believe our B+F this year. Marshall should have won by the length of Flemington straight, with Billings the only other player really in the mix. The 2017 award? Absolutely he deserved that. The 2019 result is just a hangover of playing Richoball for so long. Somehow the 9 irons Ross hit all day long were seen as an acceptable way to use the football. Hell Newnes is a better user of the ball and we just saw exactly how much he was worth.

Im with W2L here. Roo and BJ could get away with acting like petulant children on the field because they were superstars. Ross is not. If we are going anywhere near being a successful team, Ross is not in our leadership group (let alone captain). As for his spot as a starting mid, Ross attends more center bounces than anyone over the past few years, yet he isn't a great clearance player. His disposal is also not good enough to justify him as an outside mid (that is for the the Hill, Billings types). So what the hell is he other than an accumulator with ineffective disposal?

As everyone keeps saying, "Ross will be a great player when we have a great midfield". People do realise that is not a compliment right? That is just saying when we have the people to do the heavy lifting for him, he will improve (ie Ross has now proved that he is not good enough to do that lifting himself). Must be great when your flaws are constantly forgiven because others are not doing the work you are actually being picked to do (and as the senior mid out there are actually required to do).

FFS, Ross is 27 in the first few rounds next year. Enough of he will be good "when we have a better midfield" or "when we are a better side." Time to step up and take some ownership of the midfields performance. And if you cant drive that standard, then get out of the way of young players like Gresh or Clarke who potentially can.

Not saying Ross is a bad player. Just saying he is not a leader, is an ineffective accumulator most of the time and is hugely overrated by supporters and coaches. For me, he is the definition of expendable. Personally, I am very happy to float him as tradebait in order to land a star or a top 5 pick.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm pretty sure that he would have got a decent pick in exchange if we'd offered him up as that third best midfielder type to a team opposite to us; a team that has a few really classy players but not much depth. But selling off our B&F winner would have been a shocking look.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Seb Ross in Josh Bruce's position next year: St Kilda not in much of a hurry to renew his contract (up in 2021), him needing extra security and needing to act while he still had value, testing the waters, finding a couple of possible keen clubs, hopefully the club getting some value out of him, (though observing how they handled the Bruce move I'd say that Gallagher is happy to sell cheap in exchange for more fluid list movement and salary cap relief). Or in the next 12 months, he adds something else to his game that makes him indispensable to us and we extend his contract in May.

Of course I'd love it if the latter came to be, but we still don't have the Rob Harvey in our team that allows him to be an Andrew Thompson and I suspect that the chances of him discovering an elite trait at this late stage is unlikely.

 

[BrutThough]

The internet told me. It’s certainly fact because if we wanted him we would have kept him. People do say strange things

The article from the club with direct quotes says otherwise.

 

[Mindtraveller]

Why do we have 4 spots on the list?

By my count we only have 3?

Full list at start of last season (44)
+ Marsh, Rowe, Mayo
- Armo, Longer, Pierce, Rowe
- Steven, Bruce, Acres
+ Hill, Jones, Butler, Howard, Ryder
- White, Rice, Young, Newnes

Equals 41. 3 spots free

What am i missing?

Mayo will be a rookie?

 

[BrutThough]

We did get both Robbo and Membrey as delisted free agents...win some, lose some.

And we got Membrey by Sydney "delisting" him in the same good faith as we did with Newnes.