List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[gbatman]

Need to have a clean out of conditional and second rate footballers.

Retire:
Murphy, Betts, Casboult

Explore Trades for:
Fisher, Dow, SPS, Setterfield.

What a waste of early picks. Looking doubtful they will develop now. Plenty of talent, no guts. Perhaps it's what happens if you are developed in an environment where the coach and leadership group let you get away with it and don't push you hard enough. Not sure it can be fixed.

 

[macky99]

Not sure why we delist Levi, we have injury issues with our talls and not a lot of depth, he stays.
Newnes is a solid player and at worst very good 20-25 ranked player, he stays.
Setterfield, im not ready to give up on just yet.

If we are looking to move forward Casboult is not part of the future, let's go to the draft and get some young talls we can develop.
Casboult is not going to be part of a team challenging to be a top 6 team.
Newnes is average at best, if he is in our best team we are not going to progress forward.

I believe definitely 6-8 list changes for a team still bottom 8, we still need improvement in the list not going to achieve that hanging on to players and making minimum changes.

 

[katmanblue]

A spine of Weiter, Jones, TDK, H, Charlie, supported by Cripps, Doch, Plow, Williams, Saad, Jack, Gov, Martin is mature enough.

I'm shaky on Doch. Might be a bridge too far. Need to start being ruthless. No more carrying blokes to 300 or 350.

 

[Stamos]

Explore Trades for:
Fisher, Dow, SPS, Setterfield.

Dow? You're kidding.

Hopefully a new coach can keep the others, and get them to their potential.

 

[Stamos]

I'm shaky on Doch. Might be a bridge too far. Need to start being ruthless. No more carrying blokes to 300 or 350.

I understand the shakiness.
Can't sack him though.

 

[gbatman]

Dow? You're kidding.

Hopefully a new coach can keep the others, and get them to their potential.

I wouldn't give him away but if someone really wants him and a really good player is involved then do it. He's nothing special, a hell of a lot better players out there. Played some good footy but gee he can be bad. Big part of our poor defensive efforts when we are getting done.

He might develop into a good player but has some serious issues with his game, lack of footy IQ and genuine effort is a huge problem to overcome.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

I wouldn't give him away but if someone really wants him and a really good player is involved then do it. He's nothing special, a hell of a lot better players out there. Played some good footy but gee he can be bad. Big part of our poor defensive efforts when we are getting done.

He might develop into a good player but has some serious issues with his game, lack of footy IQ and genuine effort is a huge problem to overcome.

Not sure what you mean by effort - his main schtick is effort - are you talking about running ? His role is meant to be an inside extractor at stoppages to feed it out.

He is a victim of a sht game plan - like many of our players.

Teague has damaged this club in many ways.

 

[Jeremias]

There aren't really good forwards out there who kick as badly for goal as Fogarty. Fogarty's goal kicking is well below 50% and many of those misses are from right in front not far out. His 0.3 including a real sitter in the VFL is the norm.

You're shifting the goal posts every time you're called out and given examples of where you're not correct.

You said forwards don't last or can't be successful if they can't kick.

That's wrong and I gave you an example. Do you need more?

Extremely well, well maybe by our standards. The footy world has never raved about him, we got excited because we have been desperate and he competes hard. That's a bit rich...

No, you're just plain wrong on this.

He was terrific early and it has nothing to do with 'Carlton standards' either.

The Carlton recruit "setting the world on fire" after three games

Tim Watson has been impressed with a pair of Carlton forwards.

www.sen.com.au

Need me to dig up more examples or is that enough?

Hell, even you were liking Fogarty earlier in the year and commented as such. Or was that only based on Carlton standards too?

Honey kicked 2 goals, had 3 goal assists, 13 disposals and gave some decent pressure, that about tops Fogarty's best. But Honey didn't kick 1.2...

I know he didn't. I was making the point that had one more shot drifted wide he'd have kicked 1.2 and you'd probably be suggesting he can't kick.

Footy is a game of inches sometimes.

Geelong gave him to us for a pick exchange, they didn't rate him, they did the right thing by him and let him go.

He was contracted but wanted out for more opportunities. It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Came off a strong VFL game with a spot open in the forward line. Why didn't he get it? I reckon the coach is seeing what I'm seeing.

Not so sure about that - I reckon only you're seeing what you're seeing, because most of us add 1 and 1 together to get 2, not 3.

No I never said won't make it, said he's not going to make it unless his kicking improves. He hasn't done a lot to suggest he will make it in our midfield.

Never wrote Dow off, not sure where you got that from, haven't wrote Fogarty off either but I have made it clear that he won't make it as a forward if he can't finish. Nothing against the guy at all, however it is a fact that if you can't do your job you don't stay on. He has to get this right or better players will come along.

You've been overly critical of Dow because he 'can't kick' or he 'can't chase' or he 'doesn't work hard enough'. It's not hard to go through prior posts to see and the proof is well and truly in the pudding.

You pick one or two negatives in a player and put a line through them for it with zero acknowledgement that there's so much more to it than that. It's just bizarre.

 

[gbatman]

Not sure what you mean by effort - his main schtick is effort - are you talking about running ? His role is meant to be an inside extractor at stoppages to feed it out.

He is a victim of a sht game plan - like many of our players.

Teague has damaged this club in many ways.

He doesn't chase, he lets them go if he can't catch them, that's the lack of effort. Game plan is not much good but has nothing to do with lack of effort. That is his role, that's is the role he was playing today and last week and the week before yes. Still have to chase.

Dow might become an ok footballer one day but you don't say no if you can bring in a better player by trading him.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Fisher needs to go too.

...but McGovern & Williams are fine.

 

[jpfalvo]

Kreuger looks likely be a decent KPD and looks to have got the nod over Sam De Koning...
Wonder if we could prise one of them from the cats...

We had access to Kreuger. He was traded for pick42 as state listed priority player we got in 2018.

Similar vein as Mcadam.

Pretty sure that trade helped get us setters

Sent from my SM-N981B using Tapatalk

 

[Stickitupthem]

Get a decent coach with a decent game plan and an open and transparent MC that picks players on a criteria where ever our knows what’s expected no excuses and we will improve these guys out of sight .

 

[Cringle]

We wouldn’t get much in return for Dow, SPS, O’Brien or Fisher.

But I’d be pretty curious to see how they’d go under a new coach with a better system.

Maybe a Clarkson or Lyon could get more out of them?

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Get a decent coach with a decent game plan and an open and transparent MC that picks players on a criteria where ever our knows what’s expected no excuses and we will improve these guys out of sight .

Not so sure about that. The players are an introverted group that lack leadership skills or the fire in the belly.

 

[Stickitupthem]

Not so sure about that. The players are an introverted group that lack leadership skills or the fire in the belly.

Would love to see them walk off at each quarter and be faced with clarko in there face that would put the fear of god in them they’d chase like greyhounds mark my word

 

[gbatman]

You're shifting the goal posts every time you're called out and given examples of where you're not correct.

You said forwards don't last or can't be successful if they can't kick.

That's wrong and I gave you an example. Do you need more?



No, you're just plain wrong on this.

He was terrific early and it has nothing to do with 'Carlton standards' either.

The Carlton recruit "setting the world on fire" after three games

Tim Watson has been impressed with a pair of Carlton forwards.

www.sen.com.au

Need me to dig up more examples or is that enough?



I know he didn't. I was making the point that had one more shot drifted wide he'd have kicked 1.2 and you'd probably be suggesting he can't kick.

Footy is a game of inches sometimes.




He was contracted but wanted out for more opportunities. It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp.



Not so sure about that - I reckon only you're seeing what you're seeing, because most of us add 1 and 1 together to get 2, not 3.



You've been overly critical of Dow because he 'can't kick' or he 'can't chase' or he 'doesn't work hard enough'. It's not hard to go through prior posts to see and the proof is well and truly in the pudding.

You pick one or two negatives in a player and put a line through them for it with zero acknowledgement that there's so much more to it than that. It's just bizarre.

It's not wrong, your example was poor, you compared a player who is 50/50 with one who is far worse. You are aware Fogarty's goal kicking accuracy is 30% aren't you? Give me examples of good forwards who have played in premierships that bad and I'll buy you a coke.

He wasn't terrific! He was ok to good. He's been dropped and not recalled after a good VFL game and a spot open in the best 22. Can't have been going that well if he wasn't selected after that. It's clear the 0.3 in the VFL was an issue for selection, coaches don't want someone kicking 0.3 in the seniors. Sorry you lost me with SEN, sensational nonsense.

If's and buts, he didn't kick badly, it's irrelevant. Honey has kicked accurately so far, he is kicking at an acceptable level, Fogarty has not. He needs to get that right. If honey's kicking accuracy was 30% i would be suggesting that, clearly but it isn't, it's much better so there really is no point bringing it up.

He was contracted and wanted out because he wasn't going to get a game with Geelong but was going to get a game with Carlton who are much weaker, especially at half forward. Yes we have lower standards. Geelong didn't rate him, they let a contracted player go for bugger all in return. Geelong do not let players go they want/rate. Says enough I think.

I have not got overly critical of Dow, I have been accurately critical of Dow. His kicking has been terrible, I have criticised that because it was. This season it has become improved to being on par with AFL standards which I have commented on consistently. His chasing is still poor but is improved, he's probably been the worst pressure player in the game for a while and for the modern game that is no good. Dow would have never played a game in a top 4 side, he'd be miles away. However I have never said he won't make it, I have said he could probably become a decent midfielder. I have suggested we should explore a trade but only if we are to win that trade. Never said he's not going to make it. Again, not overly critical, just accurate. Go through as many posts as you want you wont find me saying he's not going to make it. I don't think he's going to be a real top level player but he may become a reasonable player but if he's going to win a premiership with this team, that means he is going to be a key part of it and that means he needs to lift in some areas. He's well off the pace currently, we saw that in today's game.

I take the qualities that every player in a team has to have for that team to win a premiership and apply those to all players. I take the qualities players have to have relating to their position to win a premiership. If the player doesn't have those qualities then they are extremely unlikely to be a part of a premiership team. I then go on the likelihood that those players will develop those qualities or not. It really is quite simple and before you say it, yes it does work like that.

You have some strange idea that because I am criticising a player I am writing them off, I'm not, I'm stating a fact that that player must develop those abilities or they will not make it and by make it, be a part of our next premiership. Sometimes those players develop and they do make it and sometimes they don't.

Going back to Fogarty, his kicking has not improved at all, he's one of the worst shots on goal in the league, he has a lot of good qualities but kicking at 30% accuracy, being able to finish as a forward is a non negotiable when it comes to becoming a premiership forward. 50% is ok if you are elite in other areas but he's not and not that good at this stage. Same with Dow, being poor defensively, you just don't win premiership if you are poor defensively, he either improves or he's not going to make it. I'm not saying these players will or he won't improve or they will or won't make it but I guarantee if these areas don't improve then they aren't going to make it. Maybe Fogarty makes it as a midfielder but you have to keep him away from goals.

Gee if anyone could be really poor over a whole heap of areas, particularly ones relating to their roles we could bring in a whole heap of blokes off the street and win a flag. You are grossly underestimating how difficult it is to win a flag and how good you have to be to do it. You aren't going to get near it if you have a whole heap of blokes running around deficient in areas that are non-negotiables related to playing in a premiership team and playing their role in a premiership team and we are nowhere near it.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

He doesn't chase, he lets them go if he can't catch them, that's the lack of effort. Game plan is not much good but has nothing to do with lack of effort. That is his role, that's is the role he was playing today and last week and the week before yes. Still have to chase.

Dow might become an ok footballer one day but you don't say no if you can bring in a better player by trading him.

Yeah I suspect you are chastising his failure as an outside mid rather than recognizing he is an inside extractor whose job is to hand ball it to runners in space - them pick himself up off the turf.

When we win - its frequently because of Dow.

The game against the Saints was Dow.


You don't like him, I understand his role.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Not so sure about that. The players are an introverted group that lack leadership skills or the fire in the belly.

We are one of 18 clubs - either mathematics is broken and we have ended up with a list of introverted players which is statistically impossible, or you know - there is problems in admin.

Seems a simple option.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Get a decent coach with a decent game plan and an open and transparent MC that picks players on a criteria where ever our knows what’s expected no excuses and we will improve these guys out of sight .

Yup - 100% this.

We have a team absolutely brimming with gun players - we really do - we are being cruelled by incredibly strange behavior at admin/coach/executive/board level.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

We are one of 18 clubs - either mathematics is broken and we have ended up with a list of introverted players which is statistically impossible, or you know - there is problems in admin.

Seems a simple option.

The last rascal and most ferocious attacker of the ball in the group was Robinson. Malthouse decided he did not deserve a reprieve, but how many did he give at Collingwood?
Since then we have had Murphy and Docherty/Cripps as leaders. Our group still look like a group of boy scouts. No team is afraid of them, and know that they can bully them and get away with it. Once Ed Curnow retires, he will be the last of the hardmen in the group.

 

[Original Moody Blue]

Yup - 100% this.

We have a team absolutely brimming with gun players - we really do - we are being cruelled by incredibly strange behavior at admin/coach/executive/board level.

I think you are seriously over estimating our list..

 

[gbatman]

Yeah I suspect you are chastising his failure as an outside mid rather than recognizing he is an inside extractor whose job is to hand ball it to runners in space - them pick himself up off the turf.

When we win - its frequently because of Dow.

The game against the Saints was Dow.


You don't like him, I understand his role.

Dow didn't beat stkilda, fairly sure it was a team effort, he's not Chris Judd!

Gold Coast today was Dow too.

There is no one in a good side who is exempt from chasing and defensive running. He's improving but has a long way to go. Everyone has to apply pressure, Dow isn't exempt because he's an inside mid and sometimes gets 20 possessions.

I don't dislike him, I'm just stating a fact, he needs to improve, he needs to improve in a number of areas.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Obrien & fisher need to be moved on
Dow I am still doubtful about
SPS will go if offered

 

[95blues]

Dow didn't beat stkilda, fairly sure it was a team effort, he's not Chris Judd!

Gold Coast today was Dow too.

There is no one in a good side who is exempt from chasing and defensive running. He's improving but has a long way to go. Everyone has to apply pressure, Dow isn't exempt because he's an inside mid and sometimes gets 20 possessions.

I don't dislike him, I'm just stating a fact, he needs to improve, he needs to improve in a number of areas.

Crazy that there's still this idea that outside guys stay out and receive while inside guys get dirty.

 

[gbatman]

Crazy that there's still this idea that outside guys stay out and receive while inside guys get dirty.

That went out in the 90s.