List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[BluesTragic]

So LoB is no go for 2022 because he’s only had one game against St Kilda.

Yet Honey is all good for 2022 after only one game against St Kilda.

Interesting.


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I hadn’t even got to Honey.
It wasn’t my 2022 starting team.



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[WalshistheGOAT]

Dow is a key part of our future after a month of good footy but Setterfield is 'delist' after a being in our best players all of last year? People have to remember he is an inside mid and he slimmed down further to play wing this year to accomodate Walsh moving inside. He needs to add about 5-8kgs of muscle to get back to his spot in the team. He gets pushed off the ball and has never been quick enough to play wing well

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Lot of noise about SPS as part of a Cerra deal. Surely they’d come calling for Fisher instead.

 

[Jeremias]

If his kicking does not improve he's only going to be in the side if we have injuries. He's got games because he has played ok and we are weak in this area. Forwards who miss a lot and miss easy goals are on borrowed time. There is no way a mediocre half forward with terrible kicking remains in a side with a growing list.

You can say this as many times as you want but saying it over and over again doesn't make it more correct.

Plenty of examples of small types who aren't great kicks playing key roles in good to successful teams. Maybe he gets there and maybe he doesn't but if he does he won't be the first and he certainly won't be the last.

If he doesn't improve his kicking and he's still on the list in a few years it will because our recruiting and development has been terrible or because he's made it as a midfielder and I'm not sure about that one.

Or maybe, just maybe, it's because he brings other things to the table that you're overlooking because you've focussed in on his kicking for goal.

Why is that possibility so difficult for you to comprehend or acknowledge?

He was let go by Geelong without any protest. He hasn't come straight in despite being fit he's in the VFL. He's the definition of fringe player with a major deficiency.

He was let go by Geelong because they're a professional organization who are generally very good to deal with. When was the last time they kept a player against their will?

You can say he was let go by Geelong without any protest, I can counter by saying he was contracted which is probably an even greater indication that they rated him and wanted him to stick around.

He's in the VFL because he was down on form. He was in the senior side and was terrific earlier in the year too. It's not uncommon for a 22 year old with less than 50 senior games under their belt to fall out of form and be sent back to the reserves to recapture that form.

I notice though you didn't address the point re: Rankine. I wonder why?

I reckon it's probably because it flies in the face of your suggestion that if a player is fit but not playing seniors then their club doesn't rate them. Because that's clearly not correct.

I can see why you're a big fan, he chases and tackles and there is effort in his game. That's good but you need to be able to do the offensive part of the game and he hasn't proven anything in this area yet.

Calling you out for posting fallacies doesn't mean I'm a big fan. It just means I prefer people to be fair in their assessments and not make things up when doing so.

 

[thebluenewdeal]

Lot of noise about SPS as part of a Cerra deal. Surely they’d come calling for Fisher instead.

Just based on talent, samo is better than fish. I do wonder how Dow would feel with Cerra in the team though. Would take a while for him to digest that we go after a player we didn’t pick up in his same draft class and pay him double of what he’s on.

 

[Coona Blues]

Just based on talent, samo is better than fish. I do wonder how Dow would feel with Cerra in the team though. Would take a while for him to digest that we go after a player we didn’t pick up in his same draft class and pay him double of what he’s on.

Thinking that most players would be aware of the nuances that drive their respective pay packets. Let’s face it, most of them playing regular games in the ones would be on amazing money for their age group. Not naive enough to think there are not mercenaries out there, but a bloke like Dow is just coming in to his own and would already have an inflated income based on his potential. It actually sounds like Cerra is far more about the go home factor than trying to inflate his wage. If just $’s he stays at Freo where he has has 750k/year on offer all season. Reported $600-$650k per year is his “asking” to return to his family. If Dow works hard enough to become a four quarter, two way runner as Cerra already is, he can ask for that sort of money, as his ability/potential is in that realm.

 

[smashbox gill]

Delist: Cottrell, Gibbons, Newnes
Retire: Betts, Murph, Cas
Rookie: See if we can move Marchbank to rookie list (AFL has approved it before for injured players)

See if we could also move Curnow to rookie list, great clubman and would be good to help develop our kids in the VFL.

Would keep Omac as backup.
Promote Kennedy to senior list.

 

[smashbox gill]

Thinking that most players would be aware of the nuances that drive their respective pay packets. Let’s face it, most of them playing regular games in the ones would be on amazing money for their age group. Not naive enough to think there are not mercenaries out there, but a bloke like Dow is just coming in to his own and would already have an inflated income based on his potential. It actually sounds like Cerra is far more about the go home factor than trying to inflate his wage. If just $’s he stays at Freo where he has has 750k/year on offer all season. Reported $600-$650k per year is his “asking” to return to his family. If Dow works hard enough to become a four quarter, two way runner as Cerra already is, he can ask for that sort of money, as his ability/potential is in that realm.

I have good info on this.
Freo offering $700-750k
We offering about $600-650.
List Managemt team rates him very highly and it’s more a go home factor than $$

 

[gbatman]

You can say this as many times as you want but saying it over and over again doesn't make it more correct.

Plenty of examples of small types who aren't great kicks playing key roles in good to successful teams. Maybe he gets there and maybe he doesn't but if he does he won't be the first and he certainly won't be the last.



Or maybe, just maybe, it's because he brings other things to the table that you're overlooking because you've focussed in on his kicking for goal.

Why is that possibility so difficult for you to comprehend or acknowledge?



He was let go by Geelong because they're a professional organization who are generally very good to deal with. When was the last time they kept a player against their will?

You can say he was let go by Geelong without any protest, I can counter by saying he was contracted which is probably an even greater indication that they rated him and wanted him to stick around.

He's in the VFL because he was down on form. He was in the senior side and was terrific earlier in the year too. It's not uncommon for a 22 year old with less than 50 senior games under their belt to fall out of form and be sent back to the reserves to recapture that form.

I notice though you didn't address the point re: Rankine. I wonder why?

I reckon it's probably because it flies in the face of your suggestion that if a player is fit but not playing seniors then their club doesn't rate them. Because that's clearly not correct.



Calling you out for posting fallacies doesn't mean I'm a big fan. It just means I prefer people to be fair in their assessments and not make things up when doing so.

If you can't kick goals, you don't make it as a forward, his goal kicking is both terrible and costly, it's the one thing you can't do without as a forward. He's got a career of bad kicking behind him, he's gone if he doesn't right it.

What does he bring to the table that others don't? Tackling pressure? We have options we can bring in for that. It's not worth the wasted opportunities.

Fogarty was going ok not terrific, maybe by Carlton standards. For comparison Honey comes in in his first game of the season and 3rd overall and that game was terrific and far better than any of Fogarty's games. Ok yes, terrific, you're pushing it a little. He's in the VFL because he's a mediocre player who's form dropped a little.

He was let go by Geelong because they're have a strong side and he was unlikely to get many games there and they did not rate him. Geelong let players they don't rate go easily, they tend to get that right. Try getting someone out of there they do rate, it's very hard. They were strong on Tim Kelly.

Rankine is a young player, a little earlier in his development who has had a few injuries and is struggling in a much poorer team. It's irrelevant what GCS are doing really, they are a basket case. Rankine will be a much better player unless his club screw him up.

He won't make it as a forward if he can't kick straight and hit targets, irrespective of what else he brings you have to be able to do those things in that role. He won't make it in our growing midfield unless he improves his midfield game and that would be a work in progress. SPS, Cottrell and Setterfield will be competing with who is currently in the side for a midfield spot, it's an improving list. Our midfield also needs to focus on good kicking if is to improve and he does not currently bring that.

 

[bmaurizio]

Delist: Cottrell, Gibbons, Newnes
Retire: Betts, Murph, Cas
Rookie: See if we can move Marchbank to rookie list (AFL has approved it before for injured players)

See if we could also move Curnow to rookie list, great clubman and would be good to help develop our kids in the VFL.

Would keep Omac as backup.
Promote Kennedy to senior list.

Agree list changes all necessary, especially Marchbank& Curnow to rookie list.
I’d also trade either or both of SPS /Fisher & pick if it would help secure Adam Cerra.
Dreaming of a well balanced midfielder, with a penetrating kick delivery to team’s advantage. Walsh, Cerra & Cripps, doing the heavy lifting , would be a potent combination. We need a Ruckman too, either say Ladhams / Lynch ready to go.
Still hunt Hewett also our engine room would be functional, aggressive and wining games in 2022.

 

[Mister Carlton]

Lot of noise about SPS as part of a Cerra deal. Surely they’d come calling for Fisher instead.

They can have both.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Marchbank is contracted, so delisting him would require paying him out (and not free up any cash)

Not sure about delisting specifically, but pretty sure if he was coaxed into agreeing to retire due to ongoing injuries, he could be paid out without it going against the cap. At the very least, it would be up to the AFL if his payout is included in our cap, or part of it.
So there would be ways of getting him off the list and freeing up cap space despite being contracted.
If that's where the club and/or Marchy were headed.

 

[Benaly28]

Seriously guys our spine:

Jones
Weitering
Walsh/Cripps
Curnow
Harry

Scary if all fit.


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[Original Moody Blue]

I’m a bit concerned with the list management decisions as well. My thinking is fairly similar.

-Don’t have a big problem with Fogarty and Carroll. The Fogarty trade looked good early but now looks ordinary. Can he recapture form. He is pretty similar to gibbons though.

-Carroll looks like an excellent selection in the 30’s. I would praise this selection. Just looks quality. Could be played in many positions.

-key defenders list management has been odd.

-over payed for Saad in terms of draft capital. Worth a late first round pick but we were too desperate. Although l think he’s been good we missed out on some talented young players in that draft who will be playing good footy for a long time after Saad retires.

-over payed in terms of dollars for Williams. Big 6 year deal for guy who has never had great endurance and also has history of soft tissue injuries. Has one right now. Hope size of contract doesn’t hurt us managing other contracts or limit other acquisitions.

My biggest problem is the desperation in acquiring Saad and Williams. We were basically willing to pay anything to get them and we did. Saad and Williams were not the be all and end all. Got to be able to walk away. Makes the list manager look immature and lacking experience.





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You failed to mention the worst recruit....McGovern. 5 years $700k contract and yet to play a serviceable game. Either constantly injured or unfit and makes little or no impact on the game.

 

[thylacine60]

Seriously guys our spine:

Jones
Weitering
Walsh/Cripps
Curnow
Harry

Scary if all fit.


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You failed to mention the worst recruit....McGovern. 5 years $700k contract and yet to play a serviceable game. Either constantly injured or unfit and makes little or no impact on the game.

 

[Michael Jezz]

One of the best, been performing consistently well in the reserves as well. And better than any other winger this year - don't think Newnes has gotten above 20 possessions more than once - if at all.

Honestly this is just ridiculous - no one has performed this well on the wing - no where even CLOSE.



21 disposals, 4 goal assists 6 inside 50, 5 marks.

Just a ludicrous assessment of his performance.

Judge Obrien if he plays on karl amon against Port Adelaide

 

[thylacine60]

only judge players against their direct opposition - it's a new thing!!

 

[Jeremias]

If you can't kick goals, you don't make it as a forward, his goal kicking is both terrible and costly, it's the one thing you can't do without as a forward. He's got a career of bad kicking behind him, he's gone if he doesn't right it.

How many examples do you want me to give you of forwards who are poor kicks yet who have had successful careers?

Most recently, Jason Castagna is a 3 x premiership forward yet he's a 50/50 proposition in front of goals and always has been.

Fogarty was going ok not terrific, maybe by Carlton standards. For comparison Honey comes in in his first game of the season and 3rd overall and that game was terrific and far better than any of Fogarty's games. Ok yes, terrific, you're pushing it a little. He's in the VFL because he's a mediocre player who's form dropped a little.

You're being disingenuous here. He started the year extremely well and it wasn't "by Carlton standards" either. He was terrific and the footy world noticed.

Has dropped away since then but why you feel the need to downplay his start to try and prove a point you're failing with anyway is beyond me.

Honey was good on the weekend but his game wasn't close to Fogarty's first month or so. And the sad thing is Josh kicked 2 goals 1 - had he kicked 1 goal 2 you'd probably be telling us he should be dropped because he can't kick.

He was let go by Geelong because they're have a strong side and he was unlikely to get many games there and they did not rate him. Geelong let players they don't rate go easily, they tend to get that right. Try getting someone out of there they do rate, it's very hard. They were strong on Tim Kelly.

He was contracted. Fact.

He was let go because they did not rate him. Not a fact.

You can believe whatever you like but please don't try pass opinion off as fact. Because it isn't.

Rankine is a young player, a little earlier in his development who has had a few injuries and is struggling in a much poorer team. It's irrelevant what GCS are doing really, they are a basket case. Rankine will be a much better player unless his club screw him up.

It's not irrelevant. You posted if you're not injured and not getting a senior game then you're not rated by your club.

I gave you an example of that clearly being incorrect. Don't like that one? How many others do you want?

He won't make it as a forward if he can't kick straight and hit targets, irrespective of what else he brings you have to be able to do those things in that role. He won't make it in our growing midfield unless he improves his midfield game and that would be a work in progress. SPS, Cottrell and Setterfield will be competing with who is currently in the side for a midfield spot, it's an improving list. Our midfield also needs to focus on good kicking if is to improve and he does not currently bring that.

So now we've moved from he won't make it as a forward because he can't kick, to he won't make it as a midfielder because he can't kick.

That's an even worse suggestion given the number of midfielders running around who are poor users of the football by foot.

Look, we can go back and forth on this forever but you're letting your dislike of the guy cloud the reality so there's really not much point. My suggestion is open your eyes a little and stop focusing on one trait as the supposed ultimate proof that a player won't make it.

You've done it with Dow and now you're doing the same with Fogarty. There's a lot more to footy than what you're looking at.

 

[CarltonBlooz]

If his kicking does not improve he's only going to be in the side if we have injuries. He's got games because he has played ok and we are weak in this area. Forwards who miss a lot and miss easy goals are on borrowed time. There is no way a mediocre half forward with terrible kicking remains in a side with a growing list. If he doesn't improve his kicking and he's still on the list in a few years it will because our recruiting and development has been terrible or because he's made it as a midfielder and I'm not sure about that one.

He was let go by Geelong without any protest. He hasn't come straight in despite being fit he's in the VFL. He's the definition of fringe player with a major deficiency.

I can see why you're a big fan, he chases and tackles and there is effort in his game. That's good but you need to be able to do the offensive part of the game and he hasn't proven anything in this area yet.

Plenty of Geelong supporters made jokes he's the first good player we've traded with you, they also said play him in the midfield etc.

I'm not fussed about Fogarty, plenty of time for him to get better and if he's not in a few years, not a big deal at all.

He's played a massive 39 games, plenty of time to get better.

I would be very surprised if we traded him even if someone else was interested, would be a bizarre list management decision, would make you wonder why we even bothered in the first place.

With the development train in full speed ahead with Power + O'Keefe as conductors, he'll be alright and like I said before if not, not a big deal at all.

I realize its the VFL + 1 game, but stuff like this is promising.

Analysis: Fogarty responds with brutal pressure in VFL

Lachie Fogarty produced a physical showing in the VFL on Saturday.

www.carltonfc.com.au

 

[gbatman]

How many examples do you want me to give you of forwards who are poor kicks yet who have had successful careers?

Most recently, Jason Castagna is a 3 x premiership forward yet he's a 50/50 proposition in front of goals and always has been.



You're being disingenuous here. He started the year extremely well and it wasn't "by Carlton standards" either. He was terrific and the footy world noticed.

Has dropped away since then but why you feel the need to downplay his start to try and prove a point you're failing with anyway is beyond me.

Honey was good on the weekend but his game wasn't close to Fogarty's first month or so. And the sad thing is Josh kicked 2 goals 1 - had he kicked 1 goal 2 you'd probably be telling us he should be dropped because he can't kick.



He was contracted. Fact.

He was let go because they did not rate him. Not a fact.

You can believe whatever you like but please don't try pass opinion off as fact. Because it isn't.



It's not irrelevant. You posted if you're not injured and not getting a senior game then you're not rated by your club.

I gave you an example of that clearly being incorrect. Don't like that one? How many others do you want?



So now we've moved from he won't make it as a forward because he can't kick, to he won't make it as a midfielder because he can't kick.

That's an even worse suggestion given the number of midfielders running around who are poor users of the football by foot.

Look, we can go back and forth on this forever but you're letting your dislike of the guy cloud the reality so there's really not much point. My suggestion is open your eyes a little and stop focusing on one trait as the supposed ultimate proof that a player won't make it.

You've done it with Dow and now you're doing the same with Fogarty. There's a lot more to footy than what you're looking at.

There aren't really good forwards out there who kick as badly for goal as Fogarty. Fogarty's goal kicking is well below 50% and many of those misses are from right in front not far out. His 0.3 including a real sitter in the VFL is the norm.

Extremely well, well maybe by our standards. The footy world has never raved about him, we got excited because we have been desperate and he competes hard. That's a bit rich...

Honey kicked 2 goals, had 3 goal assists, 13 disposals and gave some decent pressure, that about tops Fogarty's best. But Honey didn't kick 1.2...

Geelong gave him to us for a pick exchange, they didn't rate him, they did the right thing by him and let him go.

Came off a strong VFL game with a spot open in the forward line. Why didn't he get it? I reckon the coach is seeing what I'm seeing.

No I never said won't make it, said he's not going to make it unless his kicking improves. He hasn't done a lot to suggest he will make it in our midfield.

Never wrote Dow off, not sure where you got that from, haven't wrote Fogarty off either but I have made it clear that he won't make it as a forward if he can't finish. Nothing against the guy at all, however it is a fact that if you can't do your job you don't stay on. He has to get this right or better players will come along.

 

[TENACIOUS]

Kreuger looks likely be a decent KPD and looks to have got the nod over Sam De Koning...
Wonder if we could prise one of them from the cats...

 

[Beyond Blue]

Dow is a key part of our future after a month of good footy but Setterfield is 'delist' after a being in our best players all of last year? People have to remember he is an inside mid and he slimmed down further to play wing this year to accomodate Walsh moving inside. He needs to add about 5-8kgs of muscle to get back to his spot in the team. He gets pushed off the ball and has never been quick enough to play wing well

so not all bad news.........

View attachment 1196853

I’m just wondering what leads to you to say Setters was one of our best players last season? He didn’t figure in the top 10 of our best and fairest awards which leads to the reasonable conclusion he is not one of our best players.

 

[BlueJet]

Kreuger looks likely be a decent KPD and looks to have got the nod over Sam De Koning...
Wonder if we could prise one of them from the cats...

Would be great to nab either of them, I'd imagine that the Cats would move on others in order to retain them though.

 

[thylacine60]

I’m just wondering what leads to you to say Setters was one of our best players last season? He didn’t figure in the top 10 of our best and fairest awards which leads to the reasonable conclusion he is not one of our best players.

All I did was show a fish.

 

[Beyond Blue]

All I did was show a fish.

Sorry mate fat fingers by me on the iPhone so I included your comment by accident!