List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

[no fate]

Re the 30 and overs:
Betts, Murphy, Cas have to be retired, they are all cooked, just to varying degrees.
Jones has to stay, still a gun.
Ed is the debatable one, think he should go round again, but play some VFL too.
Agree that we have ample experience in the 28 and under group.

 

[BlueTongue]

So many issues not sure where we start, lack of intensity against North and Gold Coast with possible finals on the line is really troubling.

Ruck -
TDK - young body and possibly carrying a pectoral injury from Saints game.
Pittonett - pedestrIan ruck at best. A back up rather than a #1.
Casboult - if reports of knee injury are true, likely finished.
Mirkov - injured

Over 30’s -
Was a strength earlier in rebuild, but has caught up with us rather quickly.
Murphy, Betts, Casboult, Ed Curnow, Jones -
Murphy and Betts are done.
Casboult - if reports of knee injury are true, likely finished.
Ed Curnow - unlikely we keep Ed Curnow if we upgrade to Hewett (our interest in Hewett is reported). Possible depth option.
Jones - stays.

24-28 year olds
Cripps - jury out on ‘leadership’. Maybe carrying a back injury. Seems slow and fails to take first option often, so often tacked. Telegraphs his kicks resulting in turnovers.
Docherty -jury out on ‘leadership’. Bad case of fumbles in 2021. Seems out of gas too early in matches. Perhaps a longer pre-season helps in 2022.
Newnes, Newman - ok, not great.
Plowman - not much love, poor defensive system catches him out.
Martin - rushed back too soon played injured.
Saad - played injured but below expectation.
Williams -injured a lot, questions on desire to be as fit as possible.
Marchbank -injured, cannot get on the park.
Gibbons - 50/50

‘Key position‘ players
If only we could have Harry, Charlie, JSOS, McGov, Weiters, Jones, Marchbank and McDonald all available.
We are lucky Jones missed just the 1 match this season.
Certainly need to get a more durable KPD and draft a developing KPD.
Marchbank to rookie list, think McDonald gone if rumour re: ongoing injury is true.
Parks a project.

Young players
When you look at the number we have drafted, it highlights that our development since we went down the rebuild path in 2015 was really bad. Some played better under Bolton than under Teague.

2015 Draft - Weitering, Harry, Charlie, Cuningham and JSOS, traded in Kennedy - keep them all.
2016 Draft - SPS, Fisher, Williamson, traded in Setterfield. Have all gone backwards.
2017 Draft - Dow, L’Ob, TDK, Fogarty traded in. Dow is ok but lacks a tank, L’Ob has the wing attributes we need but has gone backwards, TDK still 2 years away but remains our best ruck. Fogarty gets another year needs a good pre-season.
2018 Draft - Walsh, Stocker - keep both.
2019 Draft - Kemp, Philp, Ramsay. Worried about Philp with injury. Kemp and Ramsay yet to debut.
2020 Draft - Durdin, Carroll. Too soon.

Cottrell, Owies, Honey, Parks. Owies and Honey stay. Not sure we can improve Cottrell’s footy IQ but perhaps we can turn him into a tagger. Parks a project.


I think we go backwards in 2022 to reset the rebuild. Tough calls on some of the younger players we keep and which go (not all have trade value and not all can be put on the rookie list).

Retire / delist - Betts, Murphy, Casboult. Ed Curnow 50/50.
Injury calls - Marchbank, Philp.
Trade - SPS, L’Ob, Fisher. (All 3 reflect how poor our development is)
Big pre-season - McGovern, Dow, Stocker, Fogarty, Williams, Williamson.

Great summary, agree with most. I’d add Setterfield to the trade list, very limited footballer and I’d back Cotters in over him any day. I like the way he goes about it, very direct footballer who doesn’t stuff about or second guess himself. The odd brain fart but experience will fix that.

Ideally I’d like to trade Williamson also, as he doesn’t have a right foot, and is way too slow with his decision making, but does some good things and can kick a mile on his left. Worth persevering with for another year.

 

[AT97]

You need to create space so that the younger players can flourish, so that we can have a more successful future.

Ed can still play, but what does he offer aside from tagging? We need to be looking forward.

We could have used some of his tagging when Anderson and Miller were running a muck.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Sydney have sounded out at least 2

Who are?

 

[Arr0w]

And if it is fact re Teague? Why does it bother you?

One discussion at a time, talking about Ed here, no one else but we can through the whole list and coaching staff if you

Bother me? Why would it bother me if it's an opinion? But we can get back to Teague soon enough

So back to Ed, is it opinion or fact that he is bad for culture?

 

[Arr0w]

Sydney have sounded out at least 2

That's not unusual, clubs sound out players all over the league

 

[Jimmyonesix]

One discussion at a time, talking about Ed here, no one else but we can through the whole list and coaching staff if you

Bother me? Why would it bother me if it's an opinion? But we can get back to Teague soon enough

So back to Ed, is it opinion or fact that he is bad for culture?

It's fact that his hack kicks from the back of stoppages create costly turnovers even worse when we run that plus one at the stoppages

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Who are?

Yeah, not gonna say. Knowing that other clubs know we have cultural issues and underperforming players so they want to poach them cheap should be enough.

 

[Arr0w]

It's fact that his hack kicks from the back of stoppages create costly turnovers even worse when we run that plus one at the stoppages

That has nothing to do with culture though

 

[Arr0w]

Wondering if other clubs have culture issues when they are seen as underperforming

It's such a summary term

 

[forever blue 1]

You need to create space so that the younger players can flourish, so that we can have a more successful future.

Ed can still play, but what does he offer aside from tagging? We need to be looking forward.

We’ve just had the winner of bingo today.

 

[HereComesJuddy]

One discussion at a time, talking about Ed here, no one else but we can through the whole list and coaching staff if you

Bother me? Why would it bother me if it's an opinion? But we can get back to Teague soon enough

So back to Ed, is it opinion or fact that he is bad for culture?

Cant remember where the Ed has come from but I've also heard reports. Stuff i don't wish to elaborate on in here. I mentioned Teague and you know that

 

[charred_fate]

Wondering if other clubs have culture issues when they are seen as underperforming

It's such a summary term

Do you really believe what you write?

For the sake of the discussion, let's start with a list of clubs that have been as shitful as Carlton for the last 20 years ..

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Do you really believe what you write?

For the sake of the discussion, let's start with a list of clubs that have been as shitful as Carlton for the last 20 years ..

Essendope!!!

 

[Bluey19]

How can a list manager sign Cripps up for huge dollars and 6 years, this club is shambolic.

 

[Bluey19]

Wondering if other clubs have culture issues when they are seen as underperforming

It's such a summary term

Do you believe we have cultural issues?

 

[Jimmyonesix]

That has nothing to do with culture though

Correct -- as outsiders this is the only fact I can see

 

[CoachB]

It's not an easy job improving a list in the AFL. There are many issues to contend with;

1. AFL restricts list sizes (too much IMHO) so it is harder to carry prospects,
2. The junior game is almost completely different to the AFL game so the kids have to relearn the game before they can make a difference,
3. It usually takes >50 games for a young kid to be at the level required, which is 3 seasons usually,
4. What do we get 3 to 5 young players every year and really don't know if they are going to make it until the start of the 4th year and even then as you can tell from the debate on BFC the jury is often still out,
5. Then you have a very restrictive salary cap, as the economics of the sport aren't quite where we need them to be, which limits your moves

So if you brought in 5 juniors a year after 5 years you would only have 15 that have learnt enough to be ready (Sam Walsh

18

Sam Walsh

Age

24

Ht

184cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.1

5star

K

13.5

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

5.1

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

3.4

5star

No current season stats available

D

26.2

5star

K

15.4

5star

HB

10.8

5star

M

6.0

5star

T

3.2

5star

CL

4.8

5star

aside) at least 50% won't cut it, so you have 7 players for a team of 23? Where are the rest coming from?

The answer, as Geelong and Hawthorn in particular have shown, is trading for mature role players. This has historically only been an option for top 4 teams as they get older players who are more interested in success and have already made their money.

This is why I think we made a mistake of moving on SOS, he had invested a lot of time studying / developing the skills of trading and maneuvering to help us get talent through the door. His use of front end contracts was fantastic. Now, regardless of whether you like the players he brought in, the skill of getting Martin for free and trading down to get Stocker are very valuable for a team stuck in the bottom quartille.

Even though our management / board have been poor in setting us up for on field success (props to their off field work!), our coaching has been second rate, our use of analytics appears non-existent the thing that makes the most difference is having the cattle.

We must be aggressive and bold in the offseason, we will and must make mistakes (both ways), but we need to be much smarter in our contracts. The idea of getting McGovern was correct - the contract was wrong. We need to be able to move on from our mistakes quickly and not have them choking our list.

We need to make decisions sooner. Chronically injured players like Marchbank and Cunningham need to been assessed quickly and hard decisions made. Success only happens when you are 100% focused on it and don't get emotional. The situation we have with Doc is the case in point, we commit long term to a player based on his pre injury potential not the post injury reality, despite the fact he is a great bloke.

Long term contracts must have flexibility that allow us to either trade them on or have a reducing financial commitment and by the way I wouldn't want a six year deal for anyone.

Therefore, any player outside our core, which is reviewed regularly should be on the table for trade every year. We need the NBA mentality, even though they have a much easier system for improving, their view is like Ricky Bobby "if you aren't first you're last".

Going into this offseason everyone other than MacKay, Walsh and Weiters should be available for the right offer.


CB

 

[Arr0w]

Cant remember where the Ed has come from but I've also heard reports. Stuff i don't wish to elaborate on in here. I mentioned Teague and you know that

Heard reports, or opinions?

Again, one at a time, let's establish whether it is fact or opinion

Do you really believe what you write?

For the sake of the discussion, let's start with a list of clubs that have been as shitful as Carlton for the last 20 years ..

Ah, the 20 year thingie, I guess we can add Demons, Saints, Dockers then

Do you believe we have cultural issues?

I think many people use the term "culture" as a broad term for areas that aren't effective and every single organization would have moments and or areas that don't align with the group think of the masses

 

[charred_fate]

Essendope!!!

This is a good start.. so, for one, we have the Club that was involved in the greatest doping scandal the competition has ever seen...

 

[charred_fate]

Ah, the 20 year thingie, I guess we can add Demons, Saints, Dockers then

Ahh, yes .. that 20 year thing where we actually had to start abiding by the rules, where everything except how much money you could offer a player became relevant to team success ... Seems a very suitable starting point to me.

Saints, Dockers??

 

[Juddernaut08]

Not sure why we delist Levi, we have injury issues with our talls and not a lot of depth, he stays.
Newnes is a solid player and at worst very good 20-25 ranked player, he stays.
Setterfield, im not ready to give up on just yet.

Levi is depth at best. Been good but now his body is past it.

Newnes is not afl best 22 and is really just a list clog

Setters would be kept in a vaccuum. at the blues he is behind crippa walsh kennedy and dow for inside mid time, which is his only position. trade or delist

 

[Michael Jezz]

Wondering if other clubs have culture issues when they are seen as underperforming

It's such a summary term

Don't equate Carlton's serial multi decade 5 spoon failures & 8 years without finals to
North Melb - 2 prelims in 6 years and a rebuild showing signs of life
Hawthorns- triple premierships and history of bottoming out and repeat building of dynasties.
Stkilda- even that basket case played in 3 grandfinals 11 years ago and repositioned itself as a finals participant last year.

Culture is not a summary term it is evidenced by the ability to rebound, regroup and maintain winning standards. These teams do that, while the Carlton Football Club is anchored in a state, up until now, of permanent failure

 

[Stickitupthem]

Give these talented boys the chance to become what they should be by now
We have the talent
We need a proper system for these guys to follow that’s transparent
No boys club
We need a proper management team that allows all depts to do their jobs unhindered
Especially Russel
We need a good experienced CEO to control and keep all staff in their areas of expertise .

 

[BlueTongue]

Not sure why we delist Levi, we have injury issues with our talls and not a lot of depth, he stays.
Newnes is a solid player and at worst very good 20-25 ranked player, he stays.
Setterfield, im not ready to give up on just yet.

Newnes is very average and I’d rather see any of our young up and comers, regardless of form, in the 22 ahead of him. How he gets a game week in week out is a mystery to me. At 28 years old, supposedly still in the latter half of his prime, and playing for a club that gave him another chance after he was delisted by the Saints (who themselves were underperforming), he does the absolute bare minimum. Get him out ASAP.