List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

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Jeremias said:
You mean the guy who is out with a foot injury, not the knee injury he carried into the draft, which could literally happen to anyone?

"Wild risk". OK then.
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I think drafting a kid fresh off an ACL comfortably falls under the risk or gamble category to be fair.

It certainly doesn't warrant anyone claiming it as such to be scoffed at.

What's an average AFL career? 10yrs? Let's run with that. He's now missed 15% of that. I doubt he plays senior footy this season either.

Gambling is fine if you can afford it.
 
95blues said:
I think drafting a kid fresh off an ACL comfortably falls under the risk or gamble category to be fair.
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No such thing as a sure thing.

ACL adds an extra layer, but all kids are a risk on draft day.

It certainly doesn't warrant anyone claiming it as such to be scoffed at.
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It does when you're bemoaning he's "still injured" when the injury he suffered is to a completely different body part, is probably completely unrelated, and could literally happen to any kid in the draft class.

What's an average AFL career? 10yrs? Let's run with that. He's now missed 15% of that. I doubt he plays senior footy this season either.
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OK, the kid may debut as a 20 year old or a 21 year old.

So what?

Gambling is fine if you can afford it.
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It's not anywhere near as big a gamble as the original poster was making out.
 

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Jeremias said:
No such thing as a sure thing.

ACL adds an extra layer, but all kids are a risk on draft day.



It does when you're bemoaning he's "still injured" when the injury he suffered is to a completely different body part, is probably completely unrelated, and could literally happen to any kid in the draft class.



OK, the kid may debut as a 20 year old or a 21 year old.

So what?



It's not anywhere near as big a gamble as the original poster was making out.
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It was a big enough gamble that a top 5 pick slipped to 17th? Sounds like there were a few teams that declined to take on the risk.

Yeah who needs that 18 months of development right? He'll be up to speed in no time at Carlton.

And back to the injuries, I'm maybe only 90% sure on this but I'll take the risk - there's a link between post ACL recovery and Ankle instability issues, of which Syndesmosis are probably the worst because it introduces chronic instability.

So yeah... I think "Wild risk" might actually be closer to the mark than your "meh, kids fall over all the time".

At least several other teams agreed on some level.
 
95blues said:
It was a big enough gamble that a top 5 pick slipped to 17th? Sounds like there were a few teams that declined to take on the risk.
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You have no idea why teams passed on him, let's not pretend otherwise.

May have been the injury, may have been any number of other reasons.

Yeah who needs that 18 months of development right? He'll be up to speed in no time at Carlton.
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A lot of carry on about someone who may debut as a 21 year old.

Take a step back from the discussion and maybe you'll realize how ridiculous you sound.

I'm sure the 18 months aren't a waste either, plenty of time to focus on other areas of the game, learning etc.

And back to the injuries, I'm maybe only 90% sure on this but I'll take the risk - there's a link between post ACL recovery and Ankle instability issues, of which Syndesmosis are probably the worst because it introduces chronic instability.
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There may be. I'm no doctor, neither are you, let's not pretend we know what we're talking about in that space.

It could be related, there's every chance it isn't.

So yeah... I think "Wild risk" might actually be closer to the mark than your "meh, kids fall over all the time".
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It'd fit in with how overly dramatic things have been around here this week, but perhaps even more inaccurate.

Every year kids suffer injuries pre draft, post draft, whenever. Every year some kids come on strong, others take longer to acclimatise, some don't make it at all.

Every year we have people jumping up and down saying what a mistake club X has made by drafting player Y, yet so often time undoes this panic.

When will people learn?

Rather than berate the kid for being injured and the club for backing their systems in, let's just wait this one out and see what happens, shall we?
At least several other teams agreed on some level.
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See above, you have no idea why teams passed on him.
 
I was and remain a massive wrap for Kemp (Rowell, Young & Kemp were my top 3 prospects)
Is the draft a crapshoot? Yes, the aim though is to mitigate the risk, particularly with prime draft picks.
If Kemp comes good, we'll have a leg up on the opposition for that particular pick but given SOS' tendency to go all in on Boom/Bust picks, I again question our overall recruitment strategy.
At some point you need players that can fulfill an allocated role rather than opting for the Hail Mary at every turn which at present is a significant flaw of our rebuild.
 
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Jeremias said:
You have no idea why teams passed on him, let's not pretend otherwise.

May have been the injury, may have been any number of other reasons.



A lot of carry on about someone who may debut as a 21 year old.

Take a step back from the discussion and maybe you'll realize how ridiculous you sound.

I'm sure the 18 months aren't a waste either, plenty of time to focus on other areas of the game, learning etc.



There may be. I'm no doctor, neither are you, let's not pretend we know what we're talking about in that space.

It could be related, there's every chance it isn't.



It'd fit in with how overly dramatic things have been around here this week, but perhaps even more inaccurate.

Every year kids suffer injuries pre draft, post draft, whenever. Every year some kids come on strong, others take longer to acclimatise, some don't make it at all.

Every year we have people jumping up and down saying what a mistake club X has made by drafting player Y, yet so often time undoes this panic.

When will people learn?

Rather than berate the kid for being injured and the club for backing their systems in, let's just wait this one out and see what happens, shall we?


See above, you have no idea why teams passed on him.
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And every year (or at least the past 20) we have people like yourself looking and speaking down to those who espouse the more negative aspects of our club and its decisions. When will you learn that your unwavering faith in this club and its decision making is horribly misguided?

I know it's a game around here to try and embarrass the non believers but even suggesting Kemp dropped for any other reason outside of his ACL is laughable.
 
95blues said:
And every year (or at least the past 20) we have people like yourself looking and speaking down to those who espouse the more negative aspects of our club and its decisions. When will you learn that your unwavering faith in this club and its decision making is horribly misguided?
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Unwavering?

Have been and am critical of the club for many things.

I’m just not willing to crucify them for drafting Kemp.

Talk about misguided.

I know it's a game around here to try and embarrass the non believers but even suggesting Kemp dropped for any other reason outside of his ACL is laughable.
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Not seeking to embarrass anyone.

And again, please don’t pretend to know what recruiters think.

We like to think of ourselves as experts in the back of short YouTube clips, but there’s so much more to it than that.

- positional uncertainty
- attitude
- scope for improvement

They’re just three reasons why clubs may pass on someone. There are many, many more.
 
We have a mediocre team that has a lot of players out injured. We need to focus on the second part of our rebuild which means replacing players who don't fit into a winning game style. Slow, can't run, can't kick and not physical enough types need to either improve or move on.

Make no mistake a small list restructuring has to come, there are ok footballer who don't fit into our team. We don't need all these tall slow mids. We don't need these mediocre old guys.

The situation with Cripps is an issue, he should sign or relinquish his captaincy. You can't have a captain who is managing his contract like this. Make a decision or bugger off. A leader who might leave is hardly inspirational or a role model. From what I have seen Cripps is a questionable leader. I would question that he may be a part of our player development issues, is he bringing young guys into games or is he playing for himself?

We need to trade players this year. We have too many big slow midfielders and mids who can't kick. Our forward line is an injured mess. Our backline is missing a quality third tall and there is no doubt that a couple of regulars back there are just ordinary players.

Our player development isn't making things happen for us, how we are playing young players isn't working and needs to be looked at again. We bring young players in and rather than make an effort to bring them into the game we give them roles that push them aside.

Injuries, we need to look at why we're having so many. Is it how we are training or how we are drafting or both? Maybe it's bad luck.
 
gbatman said:
We have a mediocre team that has a lot of players out injured. We need to focus on the second part of our rebuild which means replacing players who don't fit into a winning game style. Slow, can't run, can't kick and not physical enough types need to either improve or move on.

Make no mistake a small list restructuring has to come, there are ok footballer who don't fit into our team. We don't need all these tall slow mids. We don't need these mediocre old guys.

The situation with Cripps is an issue, he should sign or relinquish his captaincy. You can't have a captain who is managing his contract like this. Make a decision or bugger off. A leader who might leave is hardly inspirational or a role model. From what I have seen Cripps is a questionable leader. I would question that he may be a part of our player development issues, is he bringing young guys into games or is he playing for himself?

We need to trade players this year. We have too many big slow midfielders and mids who can't kick. Our forward line is an injured mess. Our backline is missing a quality third tall and there is no doubt that a couple of regulars back there are just ordinary players.

Our player development isn't making things happen for us, how we are playing young players isn't working and needs to be looked at again. We bring young players in and rather than make an effort to bring them into the game we give them roles that push them aside.

Injuries, we need to look at why we're having so many. Is it how we are training or how we are drafting or both? Maybe it's bad luck.
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Put Owies in for starters, he is hard at it, kicks goals, feeds to others, and brings them into the play. Still no game. Four goals last week, yet gets backhanded that they "were in the first half". Wise up people, don't waste people on your prejudices, give people who deserve games, games!
 
gbatman said:
We have a mediocre team that has a lot of players out injured. We need to focus on the second part of our rebuild which means replacing players who don't fit into a winning game style. Slow, can't run, can't kick and not physical enough types need to either improve or move on.

Make no mistake a small list restructuring has to come, there are ok footballer who don't fit into our team. We don't need all these tall slow mids. We don't need these mediocre old guys.

The situation with Cripps is an issue, he should sign or relinquish his captaincy. You can't have a captain who is managing his contract like this. Make a decision or bugger off. A leader who might leave is hardly inspirational or a role model. From what I have seen Cripps is a questionable leader. I would question that he may be a part of our player development issues, is he bringing young guys into games or is he playing for himself?

We need to trade players this year. We have too many big slow midfielders and mids who can't kick. Our forward line is an injured mess. Our backline is missing a quality third tall and there is no doubt that a couple of regulars back there are just ordinary players.

Our player development isn't making things happen for us, how we are playing young players isn't working and needs to be looked at again. We bring young players in and rather than make an effort to bring them into the game we give them roles that push them aside.

Injuries, we need to look at why we're having so many. Is it how we are training or how we are drafting or both? Maybe it's bad luck.
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Who would you have on the chopping block that would get some currency?
 
CarltonBlooz said:
Who would you have on the chopping block that would get some currency?
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Currency is the issue. Setterfield, Cripps, Kennedy don't fit into the same side but can play AFL. Is there a suitor? I don't know. Dow will be looking for a club to give him a longish contract, O'Brien the same at a guess. SPS is one who maybe could take offers and we should be open. Williamson could well be out of here, not getting regular games.

Currency is the issue, do any clubs rate these players?

Do our young guys want to be at Carlton where there are mediocre senior players getting more opportunities?
 

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gbatman said:
Currency is the issue. Setterfield, Cripps, Kennedy don't fit into the same side but can play AFL. Is there a suitor? I don't know. Dow will be looking for a club to give him a longish contract, O'Brien the same at a guess. SPS is one who maybe could take offers and we should be open. Williamson could well be out of here, not getting regular games.

Currency is the issue, do any clubs rate these players?

Do our young guys want to be at Carlton where there are mediocre senior players getting more opportunities?
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Setterfield - Likely yes, 2nd-3rd rounder at best though.
Cripps - Hopefully re-signs but if not you'd be lucky to get 1 top ten + first for him with current output.
Kennedy - On a knifes edge, I doubt anyone would be interested in him, perhaps a late 3rd.
Dow - Late 2nd, early 3rd, would be a massive waste of pick 3 though and with how he's going, he'd be lucky to get 2+ year contract from another club.
Obrien - Pies were keen on him last trade period, likely be keen again. Late 2nd, 3rd rounder. Same as Dow be lucky to get 2+ years from another club.
SPS - Would get lots of offers and we'd see another team play him in the midfield/HFF and he'd tear it up. Could see him going for an early second.
Williamson - Sad to see what happened to him, was tearing it up last year. Once again 2nd or 3rd.

Doubt any of them would go for a 1st, maybe SPS if the right club, the rest I don't think so.

Just sucks, we're already have way too many worst trades in the 21st century, would be nice not to add more to the tally.

Personally I'd get them to 100 games before get rid off, as we've well and truly bungled the development of a lot of them. As we've already stalled the development of a lot of our kids, do we really need more? HOPEFULLY the 2's aids in development and we can get back on track.

They certainly would rate them, but we wouldn't get anywhere near what we drafted/paid for them with. They'd be worth far more to us than them.

That's the worst part, no integrity of selection. Cause of our scorched earth rebuild and poor development. We've got to keep kicking the can down the road.
 
CarltonBlooz said:
Setterfield - Likely yes, 2nd-3rd rounder at best though.
Cripps - Hopefully re-signs but if not you'd be lucky to get 1 top ten + first for him with current output.
Kennedy - On a knifes edge, I doubt anyone would be interested in him, perhaps a late 3rd.
Dow - Late 2nd, early 3rd, would be a massive waste of pick 3 though and with how he's going, he'd be lucky to get 2+ year contract from another club.
Obrien - Pies were keen on him last trade period, likely be keen again. Late 2nd, 3rd rounder. Same as Dow be lucky to get 2+ years from another club.
SPS - Would get lots of offers and we'd see another team play him in the midfield/HFF and he'd tear it up. Could see him going for an early second.
Williamson - Sad to see what happened to him, was tearing it up last year. Once again 2nd or 3rd.

Doubt any of them would go for a 1st, maybe SPS if the right club, the rest I don't think so.

Just sucks, we're already have way too many worst trades in the 21st century, would be nice not to add more to the tally.

Personally I'd get them to 100 games before get rid off, as we've well and truly bungled the development of a lot of them. As we've already stalled the development of a lot of our kids, do we really need more? HOPEFULLY the 2's aids in development and we can get back on track.

They certainly would rate them, but we wouldn't get anywhere near what we drafted/paid for them with. They'd be worth far more to us than them.

That's the worst part, no integrity of selection. Cause of our scorched earth rebuild and poor development. We've got to keep kicking the can down the road.
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There's a shed load of currency in our KPPs (especially the young guns Weiters, McKay, TDK, but clearly you don't seek to trade those. In the midfield there are 2 more untradeables, Walsh and Cripps, then daylight, and limited currency in the rest.

If forced to choose a position where we have excess depth and some very handy players I think you'd have to look at our tribe of HBFs. But there's a much better idea - and even more obvious - play the best HBFs on the HBF! That's you Saad and Williams (don't care what he was promised).

SPS to be pushed forward (not a HBF!), Stocker to the middle, Willo to play reserves (but not HBF, he doesn't fit there). Doc can mind the back pocket and/or rotate with Saad and Williams. With Jones, Weits, Plow and Parks that would give us a very solid backline! Some would say one of the best in the league! Can it be that simple?

Getting really sick of seeing guys forced to play down back that blind freddy can see don't fit there! The solution seems clear, at least give it a try!
 
DangerousD said:
I missed the game yesterday so I can’t comment much on that, but something I feel needs to be addressed, where are we as a side?

There has been a lot of commentary around the Pies atm, with several commentators stating, they are in no mans land, neither challenging or rebuilding.

Although we are 2-3 my gut tells me we aren’t challenging, hopefully I’m wrong, but the worrying thing is, we aren’t rebuilding and we don’t seem to be building. Another poster previously pointed out that, we only had 5 players drafted between 2015-20 play last night, that’s shocking for a club that has invested so heavily in the draft.

We really need to decide where we are at and make team selections accordingly, to me, we aren’t playing enough kids/younger players.

There is no point going through the whole season playing Betts, Murph, Ed, Cas, and to an extent Newnes and finishing just outside the 8, when we could play the kids and actually develop a new small forward, half forward, tagger and finish 2-3 spots lower or maybe we could finish higher.
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You play your betts, murph, eds and Casboults to take the pressure off your youngsters pushing up. You dont replace them. The idea is that they stick around until the youngsters show that they are not needed any more. We got stalled in this regards last year , due to covid, but the process needs to start again.
it would be helpful, though , if we could stop getting injuries to these players. Lets hope stocker grabs his opportunity this weekend, and shows the others the way.
 
Will Day is better than Kosi Pickett, and Kemp will be better than both.

We didn’t recruit him for 2021.
 
Kreuuuzeurns said:
Will Day is better than Kosi Pickett, and Kemp will be better than both.

We didn’t recruit him for 2021.
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****inhope this post is a solid gold post


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
I'm angry. I'll probably post some things that I'll be embarrassed about days/weeks from now. But honestly, **** it.

Saad was the worst acquisition ever.

Pick 8. It is doubtful he was worth it let alone the other shit that comes with it.

Pushed Simmo out the door as we were into him.

Only goes one way (90% of the time)

Butchers it almost as often as he does something positive.

Marketing > football results.
 
If cripps does end up leaving, should move heaven and earth for matt rowell


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Before anyone rushes on guys like setterfield, Dow, SPS and a few others take a look at Salem at Melbourne. For a pick 9 it's fair to say his first 8 years weren't great especially when you consider what they traded (Josh Kelly pick). Compare the pair now. Same age. Kelly on huge money just going. Salem in AA for in the first quarter of the season.

The guys that we can put lines through are guys like casboult who wouldn't be on any other list. Should have moved him on when he couldn't sort that kicking out.

The other big **** up was going into the year with 2 ruckman with less than 50 games between them. Seriously?
 
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