List Mgmt. 2021 List Management

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I find all this talk of our 'culture' really interesting, and I value everyone's entitlement to their opinions.

For me, culture is simply a shared way of doing something, or working towards a desired outcome with goals and passion. A sporting club culture is the expression of a Club's values, attitudes and goals towards competition.

Saying the CFC has a poor culture implies that there isn't the intent and desire for success. That is incorrect.
Saying the CFC has poor culture suggests this is a club that doesn't embrace wanting to be a 'solid citizen' with it's community and social practices..That too is incorrect.
In organisational terms, employees generally are the first to identify poor culture and leave in droves. This has not happened, both in playing and non playing positions.

Don't confuse culture with success. Whilst linked, they are not intrinsically bound.
The Eagles have admitted having a poor club culture when turning a blind eye to drug taking.. yet they won flags.
The Kangaroos turned a blind eye to the continued disgraceful behaviour of one of their star players...yet won Premierships.
The Australian Cricket team, the Swim Team, the Wallabies, the Davis Cup Team..
All examples of teams with, at times, a poor culture, but successful.

So we also can't attribute our lack of success to a poor culture.

We just haven't been successful. That's more to do with process and decision making. Quite possibly formulated and managed by people who, for all their best intentions, for all their adherence to the principles that drive a good 'culture', may simply, not be up to the task.
 
Original Moody Blue said:
Better add Fisher, SPS, & O'brien as trade bait.
Click to expand...
What would they each get on the market?

Fisher: late 2nd round pick / 3rd round pick. Or future 2nd
SPS: mid range 2nd round pick. Or future 2nd
O'Brien: 4th round pick. Or future 3rd.

Hopefully Austin can pluck some late gems and turn those 3 former top 10s into useful players.
 

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KohPhi said:
I find all this talk of our 'culture' really interesting, and I value everyone's entitlement to their opinions.

For me, culture is simply a shared way of doing something, or working towards a desired outcome with goals and passion. A sporting club culture is the expression of a Club's values, attitudes and goals towards competition.

Saying the CFC has a poor culture implies that there isn't the intent and desire for success. That is incorrect.
Saying the CFC has poor culture suggests this is a club that doesn't embrace wanting to be a 'solid citizen' with it's community and social practices..That too is incorrect.
In organisational terms, employees generally are the first to identify poor culture and leave in droves. This has not happened, both in playing and non playing positions.

Don't confuse culture with success. Whilst linked, they are not intrinsically bound.
The Eagles have admitted having a poor club culture when turning a blind eye to drug taking.. yet they won flags.
The Kangaroos turned a blind eye to the continued disgraceful behaviour of one of their star players...yet won Premierships.
The Australian Cricket team, the Swim Team, the Wallabies, the Davis Cup Team..
All examples of teams with, at times, a poor culture, but successful.

So we also can't attribute our lack of success to a poor culture.

We just haven't been successful. That's more to do with process and decision making. Quite possibly formulated and managed by people who, for all their best intentions, for all their adherence to the principles that drive a good 'culture', may simply, not be up to the task.
Click to expand...
That's a very good post. I am someone who thinks Carlton has a poor culture but I based it SOLELY on effort standards. Do they go to training & f*** around instead of pushing themselves?. When someone shirks a contest do they get a bake from a team leader? When they refuse to man up or chase, does the MC make them play in the magoos?

I certainly take your point about the high levels of w***erish behaviour across various teams. My view is that what they are like as humans sits outside a team culture & has been overblown because of the Swans no dickheads thing.

All of us know that in any team or sport you will play with a mix of people that would be close friends no matter what & also people that you would have nothing in common with apart from the team you play for.

I think the only tangible thing in a team full of very different individuals is the minimum effort they expect from each other. That's culture to me. Simple as that. You can have a team full of flogs & win premierships if they all buy into the same level of standards, the higher the better.
 
Max Pepsi said:
That's a very good post. I am someone who thinks Carlton has a poor culture but I based it SOLELY on effort standards. Do they go to training & f*** around instead of pushing themselves?. When someone shirks a contest do they get a bake from a team leader? When they refuse to man up or chase, does the MC make them play in the magoos?

I certainly take your point about the high levels of w***erish behaviour across various teams. My view is that what they are like as humans sits outside a team culture & has been overblown because of the Swans no dickheads thing.

All of us know that in any team or sport you will play with a mix of people that would be close friends no matter what & also people that you would have nothing in common with apart from the team you play for.

I think the only tangible thing in a team full of very different individuals is the minimum effort they expect from each other. That's culture to me. Simple as that. You can have a team full of flogs & win premierships if they all buy into the same level of standards, the higher the better.
Click to expand...

Good points..
I reckon if they did **** around at training, the Coaches would be spitting fire..I also trust that a good bunch of their team mates would let them have it as well. If they didn't, then yes, it would point to a shitty culture.

Regarding your belief on effort standards, you're spot on about everyone being different, with different levels of enthusiasm and effort in all sporting teams. Poor culture in my view is allowing that to continue without address. It's probably the number 1 reason players get moved on because let's face it, anyone who makes it on an AFL have the skills to play..quite often, they lack the application and or game smarts..

Is that systematic of a poor culture? or as I tend to believe, the outcome of poor recruitment and development.
 
Metalcrusher said:
TBF, North have scared a few teams this year ....
Click to expand...

I don’t think they are ahead of us, over the course of the AFL season, teams get what they deserve, you might beat someone, but that doesn’t make you better in the grand scheme of things.

I can’t stand this Essendon obsession we have, that stupid finals thread, at the end of the season, the ladder will show, where we sit.
 
KohPhi said:
I find all this talk of our 'culture' really interesting, and I value everyone's entitlement to their opinions.

For me, culture is simply a shared way of doing something, or working towards a desired outcome with goals and passion. A sporting club culture is the expression of a Club's values, attitudes and goals towards competition.

Saying the CFC has a poor culture implies that there isn't the intent and desire for success. That is incorrect.
Saying the CFC has poor culture suggests this is a club that doesn't embrace wanting to be a 'solid citizen' with it's community and social practices..That too is incorrect.
In organisational terms, employees generally are the first to identify poor culture and leave in droves. This has not happened, both in playing and non playing positions.

Don't confuse culture with success. Whilst linked, they are not intrinsically bound.
The Eagles have admitted having a poor club culture when turning a blind eye to drug taking.. yet they won flags.
The Kangaroos turned a blind eye to the continued disgraceful behaviour of one of their star players...yet won Premierships.
The Australian Cricket team, the Swim Team, the Wallabies, the Davis Cup Team..
All examples of teams with, at times, a poor culture, but successful.

So we also can't attribute our lack of success to a poor culture.

We just haven't been successful. That's more to do with process and decision making. Quite possibly formulated and managed by people who, for all their best intentions, for all their adherence to the principles that drive a good 'culture', may simply, not be up to the task.
Click to expand...
Having a decent culture means you are always trying to improve yourself and the group. To do this, we need the right leaders. The club has had appalling leadership going back 20 years at all levels.

The Board and their 'buy' a flag mentality that has permutated their thinking for 2 decades. We have had an invisible President, a coach that everyone agrees is not upto the job without help, and an administration that has been more interested in building empires than getting the club competitive on the field.

The players have been lazy going back to when Ratten was coach. Judd carried the group until he finally collapsed. Once he left the only semblance of leadership left with him. Our midfield has refused time and again, year in and year out to run hard into defense and do the team things. They judge their games on meaningless stats, and then we wonder why our defense has been so brittle over the years. Whenever a coach comes in to fix the problem, they just ignore him and keep doing what they want.

After the St.Kilda game, Teague made a point of highlighting that he played a one-on-one game stlyle so he could observe who was going to do to the team things. Go back to a zone system and we have the GCS match. Players pretending to miss tackles, limp, and just not block off space or run back to help out.

Mark Maclure summed up the culture in the 80's. If you did not do the team things and were not 100% committed, you were shown the door.
Weitering and Walsh are trying to set up a new culture but they are being swamped by the players trying to survive for another 2 years before they have to go and work on building sites.

A review is just putting wallpaper over the cracks. Cripps needs to step down as leader, and get Weitering or Walsh into that role asap. Identify the weak links and get them out of the club. The Board is just a power rush for a number of individuals. We need to go after Matt Rendall who is one of the most astute recruiters in the game and can identify a kid with quality a mile away. Whoever made the decision to recruit Williams and turn him into a midfielder needs to be shown the door.

Until we fix the leadership issues at all levels at the club, we are not going anywhere.
 

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DangerousD said:
Does that make us worse than North, because they beat us?
Click to expand...

I was just wondering what was the metric and how people view progress or a lack thereof

Personally I see it more than just a game, more than just a ladder position separated by a game or 2 over the course of an entire, even with a compromised draw

My belief, for some time now, is that our style doesn't lend to the composition of our list

Ultimately, each year you have about 6 sides that are contenders, 8 fighting for 2 spots and 4 sides that aren't a chance.

That's how I compare teams, but then it's the strength of the list, will it stagnate, improve or decline over the next 3 years
 
Original Moody Blue said:
Having a decent culture means you are always trying to improve yourself and the group. To do this, we need the right leaders. The club has had appalling leadership going back 20 years at all levels.

The Board and their 'buy' a flag mentality that has permutated their thinking for 2 decades. We have had an invisible President, a coach that everyone agrees is not upto the job without help, and an administration that has been more interested in building empires than getting the club competitive on the field.

The players have been lazy going back to when Ratten was coach. Judd carried the group until he finally collapsed. Once he left the only semblance of leadership left with him. Our midfield has refused time and again, year in and year out to run hard into defense and do the team things. They judge their games on meaningless stats, and then we wonder why our defense has been so brittle over the years. Whenever a coach comes in to fix the problem, they just ignore him and keep doing what they want.

After the St.Kilda game, Teague made a point of highlighting that he played a one-on-one game stlyle so he could observe who was going to do to the team things. Go back to a zone system and we have the GCS match. Players pretending to miss tackles, limp, and just not block off space or run back to help out.

Mark Maclure summed up the culture in the 80's. If you did not do the team things and were not 100% committed, you were shown the door.
Weitering and Walsh are trying to set up a new culture but they are being swamped by the players trying to survive for another 2 years before they have to go and work on building sites.

A review is just putting wallpaper over the cracks. Cripps needs to step down as leader, and get Weitering or Walsh into that role asap. Identify the weak links and get them out of the club. The Board is just a power rush for a number of individuals. We need to go after Matt Rendall who is one of the most astute recruiters in the game and can identify a kid with quality a mile away. Whoever made the decision to recruit Williams and turn him into a midfielder needs to be shown the door.

Until we fix the leadership issues at all levels at the club, we are not going anywhere.
Click to expand...

Much of what you posted is pretty spot on. But again, I think the word 'culture' is being misused.
Recruitment of Williams, Cripps and Doch as skippers, midfield that runs one way etc is not, in my eyes a reflection of culture, but an outcome of poor decision making.
The team responsible for recruiting Williams as a mid did it with the intentions of strengthening the midfield so that we could take a step closer to contending. That reflects a poor decision, not a poor culture.
Crippa and Doch not working as leaders doesn't reflect a poor culture, more a potential poor choice and outcome. Was it a good culture when Crippa was carrying us off his own back and Doch was busting his arse coming back from consecutive knee recos?
Would it become an outcome of a positive culture if Crippa stays on again as Skipper and tears it up next season and Williams makes it as a mid? Can culture change that quickly? No.
It would just be a change in fortunes/circumstances/outcomes....that's all.
 
KohPhi said:
Much of what you posted is pretty spot on. But again, I think the word 'culture' is being misused.
Recruitment of Williams, Cripps and Doch as skippers, midfield that runs one way etc is not, in my eyes a reflection of culture, but an outcome of poor decision making.
The team responsible for recruiting Williams as a mid did it with the intentions of strengthening the midfield so that we could take a step closer to contending. That reflects a poor decision, not a poor culture.
Crippa and Doch not working as leaders doesn't reflect a poor culture, more a potential poor choice and outcome. Was it a good culture when Crippa was carrying us off his own back and Doch was busting his arse coming back from consecutive knee recos?
Would it become an outcome of a positive culture if Crippa stays on again as Skipper and tears it up next season and Williams makes it as a mid? Can culture change that quickly? No.
It would just be a change in fortunes/circumstances/outcomes....that's all.
Click to expand...

Club culture is fine, we’re bereft of a winning culture.

A change up in mindset & application is the tonic, and getting the 4 points more often than not.
 
Michael Jezz said:
Don't equate Carlton's serial multi decade 5 spoon failures & 8 years without finals to
North Melb - 2 prelims in 6 years and a rebuild showing signs of life
Hawthorns- triple premierships and history of bottoming out and repeat building of dynasties.
Stkilda- even that basket case played in 3 grandfinals 11 years ago and repositioned itself as a finals participant last year.

Culture is not a summary term it is evidenced by the ability to rebound, regroup and maintain winning standards. These teams do that, while the Carlton Football Club is anchored in a state, up until now, of permanent failure
Click to expand...

Talking about the same North Melbourne who are 10% and a game and a half off 17th?

The same North Melbourne who for at least half of the season have been virtually non-competitive?

Their rebuild isn’t showing any more sign of life than ours was early doors. Laughable to suggest they’re on a better path than we are.

Keep trying Michael, you may get there eventually.
 
bmaurizio said:
Essendon & Port have some great youngsters just drool at how well they play with maturity & purpose. Draft years 2018 & 2020 have gone very well for some teams.
Click to expand...

no doubt essendon did well out of the recent draft, but the biggest change has been Rutten taking the helm and acquiring Gia and Caracalla over the last year as assistants. For me there’s the reason they have defied critics with their performances this year.
 
KohPhi said:
Much of what you posted is pretty spot on. But again, I think the word 'culture' is being misused.
Recruitment of Williams, Cripps and Doch as skippers, midfield that runs one way etc is not, in my eyes a reflection of culture, but an outcome of poor decision making.
The team responsible for recruiting Williams as a mid did it with the intentions of strengthening the midfield so that we could take a step closer to contending. That reflects a poor decision, not a poor culture.
Crippa and Doch not working as leaders doesn't reflect a poor culture, more a potential poor choice and outcome. Was it a good culture when Crippa was carrying us off his own back and Doch was busting his arse coming back from consecutive knee recos?
Would it become an outcome of a positive culture if Crippa stays on again as Skipper and tears it up next season and Williams makes it as a mid? Can culture change that quickly? No.
It would just be a change in fortunes/circumstances/outcomes....that's all.
Click to expand...
The above 200%.
 
The Bighouse said:
Way before. And Parish. Even Stringer is showing more as a midfielder than the recent version of PC.
Click to expand...

Incredibly sad to see, I remember watching 360 in 2019 and Robbo saying how many Brownlow's is this bloke going to win. :'(

I really hope its just some persistent campaigner injury and the game hasn't gone past him.

Wish he'd stop with the superhero shit too ffs, not as bad as it was last year but still.
 
Jeremias said:
Talking about the same North Melbourne who are 10% and a game and a half off 17th?

The same North Melbourne who for at least half of the season have been virtually non-competitive?

Their rebuild isn’t showing any more sign of life than ours was early doors. Laughable to suggest they’re on a better path than we are.

Keep trying Michael, you may get there eventually.
Click to expand...
Please stop feeding confirmation bias to your accolytes...read my post and try to absorb the concept of Carlton's constant failures versus the other clubs ability to regenerate
 
BigFrizz36 said:
I don't understand. You have said that the swans are trying to poach 2 of our young players. That's fairly specific info.

Does this relate to stamos's previous rumour.
Click to expand...

All clubs sound out players from other clubs

The better players, if the cant entice them, they know they will force the price up and something else falls out

Players on the fringe or still developing, generally get traded cheaply
 

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