List Mgmt. 2022 Young Talent Time

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IAMPURPLEPOWER said:
I've payed little to no attention to the draft this year, perhaps due to our late picks or perhaps due to the coverage of the draft this year, which for some reason feels less than it has been in the past, so forgive me if this kid is a gun and his draft footage looks wild. Saying that, I can't help but feel if we're looking for a tall, either forwards or back, then they need to be up near the 200cm mark.

The game is very much evolving the way of KPP's being around that 200cm mark. With Cox at 195 and lacking the athleticism to go with the giants, and Pearce in the back half of his career, who usually takes the 2m beasts, I feel we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking a mid 190cm tall, who will be fighting out of their weight class in the air against these next gen talls. We saw something similar with Pav towards the back end of his career, where that slight disadvantage made a massive difference.

~200cm or GTFO, IMO.
Click to expand...
Didn’t help Sydney with Franklin and Tippett, losing two GF’s.
Hawks had Lake and Bulldogs Hamling, they were undersized.
Sure a 200cm tall may get on top, but as a whole the forwards need
to dominate as a unit.
It’s the tall power forwards that trouble teams combined with an athletic tall
that have worked the best at AFL.
Hawkins/Cameron, Riewoldt/Lynch, Buddy/Roughead, etc.
If Pearce is injured then yes Cox will struggle, but we have Hamling and our NGA
kids. Benning is good aerially and if we draft Draper, he came 3rd in the WA
combine for standing and vertical jump.
Both around that 195cm mark and bring different skill sets.
Draper missed plenty of games this year with an injury, but with his height
and basketball background, could be a bolter for Freo in years to come?
 
IAMPURPLEPOWER said:
I've payed little to no attention to the draft this year, perhaps due to our late picks or perhaps due to the coverage of the draft this year, which for some reason feels less than it has been in the past, so forgive me if this kid is a gun and his draft footage looks wild. Saying that, I can't help but feel if we're looking for a tall, either forwards or back, then they need to be up near the 200cm mark.

The game is very much evolving the way of KPP's being around that 200cm mark. With Cox at 195 and lacking the athleticism to go with the giants, and Pearce in the back half of his career, who usually takes the 2m beasts, I feel we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot by taking a mid 190cm tall, who will be fighting out of their weight class in the air against these next gen talls. We saw something similar with Pav towards the back end of his career, where that slight disadvantage made a massive difference.

~200cm or GTFO, IMO.
Click to expand...

It’s true that key forwards are getting taller, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that key defenders need to follow suit. It’s an idea that’s been floating around for at least the last 5 years, but has never really come into effect.

Instead the game has evolved to focus on team defence - having a teammate zone off and intercept in front of the 200cm forwards. The last few years have even seen more ‘smaller’ key defenders who have the strength to force a contest and allow their teammates to float in.

Obviously if there’s a quality 200cm defender, you take them. But I’m not taking an average 200cm player over a good 195cm one.
 
Chris25 said:
It’s true that key forwards are getting taller, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that key defenders need to follow suit. It’s an idea that’s been floating around for at least the last 5 years, but has never really come into effect.

Instead the game has evolved to focus on team defence - having a teammate zone off and intercept in front of the 200cm forwards. The last few years have even seen more ‘smaller’ key defenders who have the strength to force a contest and allow their teammates to float in.

Obviously if there’s a quality 200cm defender, you take them. But I’m not taking an average 200cm player over a good 195cm one.
Click to expand...
Agree with you here, however one of the reasons I like Phillips is he is a good intercept mark as well, so he effectively provides depth cover for both Cox and Pearce. Hamling is more of a lock down defender and I can see him playing along side Cox and Pearce when we are playing teams with an athletic tall like Curnow or Cameron (filling the role left by Logue) FWIW, I can see us taking both Phillips (as immediate cover) and a development KPD to replace Hamling longer term.
 

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pK75 said:
This is why I like Phillips, at 198cm and 90+kg he’s the only one I can see offering that cover if Pearce is injured. Walls talked up Hamling but he’s only 194cm so not sure how effective he’d be against the King’s, thilthorp or Sam Darcy.
Click to expand...

Lemmey is a good size and has a little bit of experience as a defender
 
There haven't been an influx of 2m tall key defenders because the athlete that can move at that size is so rare and every coach plays them forward. Our own one, Moose, played midfield before shooting up 20cm nearly overnight.

Even if there were enough 200+cm athletes (distinct from ruckmen) to have one per club, there isn't, then every coach will be seeking to exploit that match up by either forcing their opponent to man up their own giant on his tall or playing the tall on a much smaller opponent.

That's why Rory Lobb had so much potential. 205 to 207cm depending on how he rolled out of bed, able to pass beers to people on a 1st floor balcony from the ground.
 
Chris25 said:
It’s true that key forwards are getting taller, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that key defenders need to follow suit. It’s an idea that’s been floating around for at least the last 5 years, but has never really come into effect.

Instead the game has evolved to focus on team defence - having a teammate zone off and intercept in front of the 200cm forwards. The last few years have even seen more ‘smaller’ key defenders who have the strength to force a contest and allow their teammates to float in.

Obviously if there’s a quality 200cm defender, you take them. But I’m not taking an average 200cm player over a good 195cm one.
Click to expand...
Yep,
The other factor is height on paper isn’t everything. Wingspans, leap, speed, strength are big factors in being a good defender. Bodies are shaped differently and sometimes you get a shorter person whose shoulders are above someone with a long neck.

Steven May is listed as 193 but plays taller all the time. He looks like he has not much of a neck which might help gain him a few cms where it counts or is probably more that he is just a gun and his height doesn’t hold him back.
 
Chris25 said:
It’s true that key forwards are getting taller, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that key defenders need to follow suit. It’s an idea that’s been floating around for at least the last 5 years, but has never really come into effect.

Instead the game has evolved to focus on team defence - having a teammate zone off and intercept in front of the 200cm forwards. The last few years have even seen more ‘smaller’ key defenders who have the strength to force a contest and allow their teammates to float in.

Obviously if there’s a quality 200cm defender, you take them. But I’m not taking an average 200cm player over a good 195cm one.
Click to expand...

What ?

Cats - DeKoning 2m coming in turned them from very good to great

Swans - on the lookout for a tall KPD

Pies - isn’t Moore like 198

Lions - Andrews close to 2m

Melb - Petty close to 2m

Etc etc etc

Crucial to have at least 1 2mish tall defender and you better have at least 1 in development because soon you will need 2
 
And the KPDs in the All Australian squad this year were Steven May, Sam Taylor, Jacob Weitering, Tom Barrass and Callum Wilkie.

Nobody over 196cm. There’s plenty of examples of both ‘tall’ and ‘small’ key defenders. But there’s still nothing to say height matters any more than actual ability.
 
Chris25 said:
And the KPDs in the All Australian squad this year were Steven May, Sam Taylor, Jacob Weitering, Tom Barrass and Callum Wilkie.

Nobody over 196cm. There’s plenty of examples of both ‘tall’ and ‘small’ key defenders. But there’s still nothing to say height matters any more than actual ability.
Click to expand...

Height and athleticism together can turn a KPD with average football ability into an elite KPD.

Doesn’t at all mean it’s essential to be 200cm and an elite athlete though.
 
Chris25 said:
And the KPDs in the All Australian squad this year were Steven May, Sam Taylor, Jacob Weitering, Tom Barrass and Callum Wilkie.

Nobody over 196cm. There’s plenty of examples of both ‘tall’ and ‘small’ key defenders. But there’s still nothing to say height matters any more than actual ability.
Click to expand...

And ?

Cox was on the fringes of the AA team but was he more important to our TEAM structure than Pearce ?

Coxy is one of my favourite players but if I had to choose between him and Pearce for a big game I’m going Pearce every time

Just about every one of those AA types you mentioned had a 2mish bloke alongside them
 
stax on the mull said:
I heard someone on the radio recently - might have been Mick Ablett - who said McQuilkin tested well at the draft combine. He won the 2km time trial in Perth and also came 1st in the agility test. Was he a top up selection for West Coast this year?
Click to expand...
Watched him play at the Bulldogs. A quality player who would thrive in an AFL environment. We don’t need more half backs though.
 
wakojako said:
Anyone interested in Tyrell Dewar?
Click to expand...
I really like him, towards the back end of my 50 and in that range of someone I'd be comfortable taking in the national draft especially with a late pick. Mentioned before that he reminds me a bit of Freddy at times with the way he moves and he's always a threat inside 50, sadly he'll be an Eagle given his NGA status and no real links within the top 40 from what I know
 

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However Gilbey, a composed rebounding defender that had a luckless run with injury and Covid in his draft year, has also attracted interest from West Coast’s cross-town rivals Fremantle, which enters the draft at Pick 30. Dockers list boss David Walls indicated his club would target best available talent with its first selection before addressing needs with its next two at Picks 43 and 44, suggesting it needed a “developing ruck” and “key defender”. If the Dockers stay local, Peel Thunder’s Jed Adams and Claremont’s Hugh Davies are two of WA’s best key defensive prospects outside of Jedd Busslinger.
 
blue shark said:
Didn’t help Sydney with Franklin and Tippett, losing two GF’s.
Click to expand...
So your argument against the height of KPP's being crucial in determining the winner of the matchup is the quality rest of the team?

blue shark said:
Hawks had Lake and Bulldogs Hamling, they were undersized.
Click to expand...
Bulldogs had Tom Boyd, who is 201cm, and pretty much won the Dogs their only flag in 50 years off his own boot. Point stands.

blue shark said:
Sure a 200cm tall may get on top, but as a whole the forwards need
to dominate as a unit.
Click to expand...

The probability of a particular player coming out on top comes down to many factors, height being one of them. All things being equal, height is more likely to be an advantage than a disadvantage. That is more likely to contribute to dominating as a unit than not.

It's almost redefining reality by arguing that height isn't an advantage. That advantage is amplified when it's KPP players
blue shark said:
It’s the tall power forwards that trouble teams combined with an athletic tall
that have worked the best at AFL.
Hawkins/Cameron, Riewoldt/Lynch, Buddy/Roughead, etc.
Click to expand...
Hawkins, 198cm
Tom Lynch, 199cm
Franklin, 199cm

Clutching at straws here by trying to argue undersized KPD's drafted in the 3rd round are going to be hall of famers.


blue shark said:
If Pearce is injured then yes Cox will struggle, but we have Hamling and our NGA
kids. Benning is good aerially and if we draft Draper, he came 3rd in the WA
combine for standing and vertical jump.
Both around that 195cm mark and bring different skill sets.
Draper missed plenty of games this year with an injury, but with his height
and basketball background, could be a bolter for Freo in years to come?
Click to expand...

What's the likelihood of Pearce going down, given his injury history? How's Hamling gone over the last 2-3-4 years? Our NGA kids are looking to be around the mark of rookie picks, placing our teams ability to shut down the 2m beasts on players not even on our list is wishful thinking at this stage.
 
Last edited:
Chris25 said:
It’s true that key forwards are getting taller, but I don’t subscribe to the theory that key defenders need to follow suit. It’s an idea that’s been floating around for at least the last 5 years, but has never really come into effect.

Instead the game has evolved to focus on team defence - having a teammate zone off and intercept in front of the 200cm forwards. The last few years have even seen more ‘smaller’ key defenders who have the strength to force a contest and allow their teammates to float in.
Click to expand...

I think the 2m defenders hasn't come into effect so much as yet, because such traits are bonafide weapons, and teams want to use them up forward, where those weapons can be advantageous, not split the difference. Ben King is a prime example. Drafted as a KPD, moved up forward because height is just too much of a weapon to be wasted by breaking even in aerial contests. Gawn dropping back for Melbourne, Lobb when matches were on the line for us. Thilthorpe shifted to defense at times. SDK this season is a prime example of how important super tall KPD's are. Ben Mcckay another. Now consider the the never ending parade of undersized talls who are good players, but just not tall enough to get the job done.

Absolutely the defensive aspect of the game is a team one these days, but teams need to have someone capable of playing on the 2m talls. We have Pearce, and then nothing. It would be a major flaw in list management for to not have someone capable of standing eye to eye with 2m players, because we chose to draft an undersize KPD, when we have a bunch of defenders who play 3rd tall already, or 2nd tall when needed.
Chris25 said:
Obviously if there’s a quality 200cm defender, you take them. But I’m not taking an average 200cm player over a good 195cm one.
Click to expand...

And that's the crux of the issue I guess. Is this kid so good that that we should be falling over ourselves to pick him, or are there players in that bracket at 43 that also bring that weapon of 2m height, as say a Harry Lemmey?
 
IAMPURPLEPOWER said:
So your argument against the height of KPP's being crucial in determining the winner of the matchup is the quality rest of the team?


Bulldogs had Tom Boyd, who is 201cm, and pretty much won the Dogs their only flag in 50 years off his own boot. Point stands.



The probability of a particular player coming out on top comes down to many factors, height being one of them. All things being equal, height is more likely to be an advantage than a disadvantage. That is more likely to contribute to dominating as a unit than not.

It's almost redefining reality by arguing that height isn't an advantage. That advantage is amplified when it's KPP players

Hawkins, 198cm
Tom Lynch, 199cm
Franklin, 199cm

Clutching at straws here by trying to argue undersized KPD's drafted in the 3rd round are going to be hall of famers.




What's the likelihood of Pearce going down, given his injury history? How's Hamling gone over the last 2-3-4 years? Our NGA kids are looking to be around the mark of rookie picks, placing our teams ability to shut down the 2m beasts on players not even on our list is wishful thinking at this stage.
Click to expand...
It’s called team defence, of course we all worry about Pearce’s durability and why
Logue was left uncontracted?
But we also have some very good intercept marks.
Chapman is going to be an absolute superstar, but he isn’t alone.
The midfield has or will be strengthened, and that is where games are won or
lost.
Sure 3rd round picks are going to end up more serviceable than elite, but our first pick is in the thirties, guys who are around 200cm who stand out in juniors go
first round or top 5.
We have seen Tabs and Lobb play together, was that the best combo in the AFL?
The best attacking teams are more diverse, with an elite midfield feeding them.
 
Dockeroo said:
We don’t pick until Tuesday night, so the AFL will clearly drag the first 20 or so picks on Monday night out for a solid 2 hours 😩
Click to expand...
I’m not really too bothered about Monday night. Will tune in at the back end to see who is available still.

They will 100% drag it out.

Unfortunately the start of the second night will drag a bit with some pick swapping and a bunch of bids expected before our pick which will likely be 33-34.
 
Superkoops said:
I’m not really too bothered about Monday night. Will tune in at the back end to see who is available still.

They will 100% drag it out.

Unfortunately the start of the second night will drag a bit with some pick swapping and a bunch of bids expected before our pick which will likely be 33-34.
Click to expand...
It seems we can expect the following to all be selected via points matching before our first pick:
Ashcroft
Fletcher
Alwyn Davey Jr
Max michelhenney

That means pick 30 will be 34. At the 34th best player in the draft pool, you can’t expect miracles let’s be honest.
 

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